How do you reason with religious people?

[Toriver]

Firstly, this should be in Religion and Politics.

Secondly, would the Escapist PLEASE, for the love of all that is good, stop lumping all religious people in with their radical fanatics? Over 90% of America is religious, and within that group, a good three-quarters of them just live their lives like any other regular person in the country. You live with them, you go to work and/or school with them, you play games with them. The great majority of us are completely reasonable people, and you know it. If your friend is a WBC supporter, that's just your friend's opinion. The WBC is its own extremist entity within Christianity that has no influence over any other Christian church.

On a related note, within religious "grouping", if you will, why are so many people so quick to separate moderate Islam from its extremist elements, yet so happy to judge Christianity by its extremist elements without batting an eye? I'm not usually this confrontational about it, but I've gotta say, hypocritical much?

 

[Karilas]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

Just to weigh in, I'm not in the least religious any more, I was Catholic schooled, which really helped me see everything wrong with indoctrinating children. Still, to reconcile a God's lack of action in a world full of evil it began to make sense that if there were such a God, and he wanted all of his creations to have free will and develop and grow, he simply mustn't interfere with the good or the evil we perpetrate, until such time as we are judged. Which kinda makes God more of an impartial scientist type, watching over his experiment and taking notes.

 

[El Poncho]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

Just to weigh in, I'm not in the least religious any more, I was Catholic schooled, which really helped me see everything wrong with indoctrinating children. Still, to reconcile a God's lack of action in a world full of evil it began to make sense that if there were such a God, and he wanted all of his creations to have free will and develop and grow, he simply mustn't interfere with the good or the evil we perpetrate, until such time as we are judged. Which kinda makes God more of an impartial scientist type, watching over his experiment and taking notes.

That's the reason I know it won't work as an argument

 

[Kadir]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

That's easy. He is able but not willing. Imagine this: You decide to tell a lie.

"Yeah honey, that looks great," you try to say. Unfortunately, the MIGHTY HAND OF GOD reaches from the sky and knocks you out before the words leave your lips.

You can't bring reason into discussions of religion. Religion, by definition, is something outside or contrary to reason. If there was scientific basis to it, it's science, not religion. If there isn't, or if you choose to ignore it, it's a matter of faith.

Therefore, attempts to appeal to reason can't work, you have to appeal to faith, or nothing at all.

This is absolutely true. However, in this case the argument isn't:

Religion is wrong.
The WBC is religious.
Therfore, the WBC is wrong.

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

 

[bobknowsall]

I've got two methods of dealing with the religious:
1. Treat them no differently from anyone else, with the minor caveat of refusing to engage in a religious debate with them.
2. If they're fanatical, don't talk to them at all.

 

[geier]

As long as they keep there mouth shut about religion, i tollerate them. But when they start to preach i kick them out the door.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Religion has nothing to do with it, it's a matter of stupidity.

I have nothing against the concept of religion or most religious people, but their beleifs are their own and if they force it upon others then the can fuck off. Most religious people are lovely, and intelligent too. I know Christians who are disgusted by the WBC (I'm sure I've seen some on this very site); it's unfair to generalise.

 

[Thaluikhain]

This is absolutely true. However, in this case the argument isn't:

Religion is wrong.
The WBC is religious.
Therfore, the WBC is wrong.

The argument SHOULD be:

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

Well, I wasn't game to say religion is wrong, as such, just that if it isn't, it deals with intangibles that we have no rational way of knowing about at all. Thus, it is beyond what we can use reason to discuss.

Also, in your example above, the WBC can be correct and that part of the Bible is wrong. You can claim a Christian deity and believe much of the writings of human beings about it isn't quite accurate.

 

[InfiniteSingularity]

WBC and anyone who supports them are NOT religious, they're simply fucking morons.

Well, they are religious. How many different interpretations are there of single religions? You can't just discount one because it's views are abhorrent.

Sorry, but saying the WBC are Christians is like saying the Dalai Lama is a fascist. The WBC completely misses the point of their own religion, which is compassion, kindness, and other such things that Jesus taught. Everything they do goes against everything Christ said, things like "peace to all man", "God loves everyone", and whatnot. There isn't anything about homosexuality in the Bible, nor is there any evidence that God demands "cleansing" such things. They just made shit up. And when they quoted that part from the Bible (can't remember what it was) and said that it meant the Interned was made for the WBC to spread their messages is all bullshit. They are completely insensitive (protesting AT people's funerals?) and lack compassion to anyone outside their group. They lack intelligence (they have stated that their goal is effectively to scare people into sinning so other people will sin and go to hell), and they have absolutely no evidence or reason to believe, preach, and justify their beliefs (Barack Obama, the fucking Antichrist? Give me a fucking break). In short, they're just believing what they're to believe, and doing what they are told to do. I've even heard stories that the WBC raises children on these beliefs

There is no "Christianity" in the WBC, just hate. What happened to "Love your enemy"? A fundamental principle in Christianity, WBC goes entirely against that. They're not Christians. They might be Theist, but their God is definitely not the Christian God

 

[F'Angus]

I live with a Devout Christian, and I study Archaeology which they don't believe in...

You Can't Reason with them.. We just have a laugh and banter about it.. Just try not to get into a serious argument and you'll be fine

 

[mexicola]

First of all, great of you for placing all religious people in the same pot as your douchebag sounding friend. Second, we only hear your side of the story here so the picture of him is probably heavily biased, especially since you apparently just spent two hours arguing. And thirdly, doesn't this type of thread belong to Religion and Politics section? Cause if it gets enough replies it will inevitable escalate into some... well if not flame war then at least probation-producing argument.

 

[subject_87]

The thing is, Fred Phelps and co. are 'Christian' in the same way that I'm 'a 30-foot tall Jello mold that speaks fluent Sanskrit'. He's as far removed from the point of the Bible, i.e. be a decent human being, as I am from Alpha Centauri. Hell, I consider myself a Christian, and I'm quite into science, support gay rights, and don't loudly condemn anyone who's different from myself. Please don't lump us all in with that theologically bankrupt hatemonger.

 

[Cowabungaa]

I don't, because religion, no matter how small a role it plays or how innocent it is, is simply not based on reason. In the end it all boils down to "because it feels nice", and you can't reason with such emotions.

Not an insult of course, because that's the whole point of religion; to soothe one's mind, a man-made safety blanket against the vast chaos that is life and the universe.

The bible says "Don't judge people. Leave it to God."
The WBC judges people and doesn't leave it to God.
Therefore, the WBC is wrong.

Actually, and this I found funny, is not what they say. I've seen interviews with them and they happily say that they don't hate fags, but that God hates them and that they want to warn them for it.

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

Just to weigh in, I'm not in the least religious any more, I was Catholic schooled, which really helped me see everything wrong with indoctrinating children. Still, to reconcile a God's lack of action in a world full of evil it began to make sense that if there were such a God, and he wanted all of his creations to have free will and develop and grow, he simply mustn't interfere with the good or the evil we perpetrate, until such time as we are judged. Which kinda makes God more of an impartial scientist type, watching over his experiment and taking notes.

Nice argument, but I always find another question a lot more fascinating; why worship such a creature. I mean bloody hell, that's an experiment of Nazi-like proportions. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_human_experimentation]

 

[notyouraveragejoe]

I don't really bother reasoning them. Last time I did was because of an attack on something I felt was important (this is going to sound very petty but a girl dumped me due to my lack of belief). So I try not to argue with them. However, I can get into MASSIVE arguments over sexuality (being bisexual) as I tend to get attacked occasionally by some religious people. In those moments I'm rational up to the point where I almost lose my cool and then I leave before I do something I would enjoy but ultimately regret.

And don't even get me started on the WBC. They just anger me.

 

[Daveman]

Well from my perspective I dislike people believing something that I see as irrational because I don't want it to influence the way they decide what is right and wrong because that ultimately decides what is right and wrong for our government if they have a large enough majority. So basically I think the only way for religion to be truly separate from the state is if there isn't religion. So my ideals are fairly anti-religion.

That said, loads of my friends are Christians (proper ones who go to church every week and are part of christian union) just because we get on fairly well. I reason with them by just talking through things step by step until I find the exact point at which they disagree with my argument... of course this is the same way I reason with anyone who doesn't share my views. When I find that exact point I make the discussion around that and try to persuade them to see my view which may or may not succede, it's very difficult to get somebody to admit they're wrong so if you get to the point where they say "I'll have to think about that" you should consider it a victory and stop because pushing the argument any further is not going to be constructive (Richard Dawkins: Take notes on this, Dick).

If you cannot find the exact point where they disagree with you they are being irrational plain and simple and call them out on it for not coming up with anything to counter your argument.

But yeah, arguing with a religious person is just the same as arguing with anyone who has an opposing opinion to yours, to think otherwise means you clearly aren't giving them (your friends) the respect they deserve.

 

[Woodsey]

WBC and anyone who supports them are NOT religious, they're simply fucking morons.

Well, they are religious. How many different interpretations are there of single religions? You can't just discount one because it's views are abhorrent.

Sorry, but saying the WBC are Christians is like saying the Dalai Lama is a fascist. The WBC completely misses the point of their own religion, which is compassion, kindness, and other such things that Jesus taught. Everything they do goes against everything Christ said, things like "peace to all man", "God loves everyone", and whatnot. There isn't anything about homosexuality in the Bible, nor is there any evidence that God demands "cleansing" such things. They just made shit up. And when they quoted that part from the Bible (can't remember what it was) and said that it meant the Interned was made for the WBC to spread their messages is all bullshit. They are completely insensitive (protesting AT people's funerals?) and lack compassion to anyone outside their group. They lack intelligence (they have stated that their goal is effectively to scare people into sinning so other people will sin and go to hell), and they have absolutely no evidence or reason to believe, preach, and justify their beliefs (Barack Obama, the fucking Antichrist? Give me a fucking break). In short, they're just believing what they're to believe, and doing what they are told to do. I've even heard stories that the WBC raises children on these beliefs

There is no "Christianity" in the WBC, just hate. What happened to "Love your enemy"? A fundamental principle in Christianity, WBC goes entirely against that. They're not Christians. They might be Theist, but their God is definitely not the Christian God

You can find any passage in the Bible and bend it to whatever which way you want to interpret it. There's stuff in the Old Testament that's particularly nasty.

So, yes, your interpretation is that. But that's it, an interpretation. It's the more popular interpretation, but again, interpretation.

 

[TheYellowCellPhone]

Let me answer your question in the title: you don't. Don't argue to religious people about their beliefs, they will never change their way of thought.

Just talk about something else like movies.

 

[TheGuiggleMonster]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

Just to weigh in, I'm not in the least religious any more, I was Catholic schooled, which really helped me see everything wrong with indoctrinating children. Still, to reconcile a God's lack of action in a world full of evil it began to make sense that if there were such a God, and he wanted all of his creations to have free will and develop and grow, he simply mustn't interfere with the good or the evil we perpetrate, until such time as we are judged. Which kinda makes God more of an impartial scientist type, watching over his experiment and taking notes.

If God is omniscient than why would he/she have to do experiments?

 

[Alon Shechter]

If you're an Atheist, think of it this way:
Convincing someone that something that doesn't make sense doesn't make sense is something that doesn't make sense in itself.
If you're a religious man,
Well, live and let live, whoever wins this religion war, everyone will lose.
Religion is a fine thing, as are many things are but sometimes those things start to annoy because of their fan club.
Lookin' at you, CoD games.

 

[Flamezdudes]

Everyone I know who is religous accepts the views of others so I've never had to reason with any.

However I like to have this quote in my mind most of the time, doubt it would work but I like it

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able, and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God."
- Epicurus, 33 A.D

Oh for goodness sake. Even I, an Agnostic Atheist am sick of seeing that quote thrown up as some sort of truth to everything all the time. Seriously, stop it.