How hard is too Hard?

[msakey]

You know, it's interesting that Morrowind's been brought up, because it was both too hard and too easy.

At the beginning you're broke and defenseless and everyone hates you. Those pterodactyl things will chase you all the way across the map until a friendly town guard helps out. It takes hours - well, it took me hours - to get to the point where I was even remotely confident when entering a fight.

Then you hit level 10 or so, and suddenly nothing on Vvardenfell can touch you. You're a god among insects. All those insects still hate you, but hey, that's just Vvardenfell. You didn't go there to make friends.

Stalker, on the other hand, did a pretty nice job staying challenging - hardest at the beginning and then comparatively rough throughout. I was almost always injured and out of ammo, and usually being chased by wild dogs to boot.

To answer your question, Philios, I don't necessarily think games are more rewarding or addictive if they're hard. The difference between the games you describe and the mountains of games we've all doubtless abandoned because we were frustrated by the difficulty is that you DID return to them - there was something that brought you back. I'm not certain the difficulty was really the cause of that.

 

[krysalist]

God of War 2, God Mode, towards the end of the game. I still haven't beaten GOW2 because I can't get through the scenes just before the final battle and I couldn't bear with lowering the difficulty level.

I can't imagine Titan Mode.

 

[mitsoxfan]

and did ghosts n goblins

If you beat Battletoads and G&G, you owe yourself two big pats on the back. I never beat either, though I did beat Mega Man, Top Gun and Ninja Turtles, which are regarded as some of the harder games for the NES.

I hear that 'Silver Surfer' was regarded by some as the hardest game for the NES, but I never played it, thankfully.

 

[Easykill]

I really hate when people complain about legendary on Halo being too hard. It's more or less a go straight in and shoot them game. Based on how good you are at doing that, you choose a difficulty. Halo 2 had the best difficulty system ever. Your mom would think easy was too easy, and legendary keeps even the best players occupied. Complaining about it seems like you're just being a crybaby because the game's telling you that you aren't good enough for the hardest mode. And then those same people say games are way too easy now. You can only say a game is too hard if it gives you no option to make it easier.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

and did ghosts n goblins

If you beat Battletoads and G&G, you owe yourself two big pats on the back. I never beat either, though I did beat Mega Man, Top Gun and Ninja Turtles, which are regarded as some of the harder games for the NES.

I hear that 'Silver Surfer' was regarded by some as the hardest game for the NES, but I never played it, thankfully.

Silver Surfer is a classic example of too hard for the wrong reasons. See the AVGN review.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

Go back to the classics. Bionic Commando, Contra without the Konami Code...

done it, done it, and did battletoads, and did ghosts n goblins,

Did you beat the original Ninja Gaiden trilogy?

 

[Akas]

I was just about to post about this. Actually, to tell you the truth, compared to most games nowadays, games really aren't that hard, but rather cheap. Hard is when you need to think your way around or use your skills to overcome something, whereas cheap is just like bad level design/item placement/AI.

What I was about to ask, though, is what is everyone's last GOOD hard game that they've played? I'm either talking about something that is genuinely hard, or there's a distinction between "normal" and "hard" difficulties that goes beyond "enemies 2x health/damage/etc." It doesn't necessarily have to be uber-challenging, just difficult enough to enjoy.

About suggestions for games, I would say "rogue-like"'s and SHMUPs. The DS recently got a GOOD rogue-like game called Mysterious Dungeon: Shiren the Wanderer (it's the only thing I've been playing this week), and coming up is Bangai-O Spirits. It would help to say which systems you have for suggestions, though.

 

[philios82]

To answer your question, Philios, I don't necessarily think games are more rewarding or addictive if they're hard. The difference between the games you describe and the mountains of games we've all doubtless abandoned because we were frustrated by the difficulty is that you DID return to them - there was something that brought you back. I'm not certain the difficulty was really the cause of that.

You make an excellent point. But Compare Morrowind with Oblivion, as you say it takes an age in Morrowind before you can even think about getting into the main quest. For a low level character it's just not possible, however in Oblivion I was knee deep in Demon guts not long after leaving the sewers. I lost interest in Oblivion because I didn't have to work to achieve anything, in Morrowind I felt a real sense of achievment by the time I felt comfortable fighting even low level enemies because of the effort and difficulty in getting to that point.

 

[mitsoxfan]

You make an excellent point. But Compare Morrowind with Oblivion, as you say it takes an age in Morrowind before you can even think about getting into the main quest. For a low level character it's just not possible, however in Oblivion I was knee deep in Demon guts not long after leaving the sewers. I lost interest in Oblivion because I didn't have to work to achieve anything, in Morrowind I felt a real sense of achievment by the time I felt comfortable fighting even low level enemies because of the effort and difficulty in getting to that point.

Morrowind gave you a good reason to grind, which is what I love in RPGs. Oblivion was as easy at level 1 as it was at whatever level was max.

Oblivion I felt I could beat the game no matter what my skill set/level was. Morrowind, I never felt that way. But I wouldn't consider either game 'hard', especially when we're talking classic gaming.

Maybe for today's gamers, hard has a different meaning. But the first and last time I made it through round 1 of Ghosts and Goblins, and then threw the game into the woods, sort of defined 'too hard' for me. Maybe I'm just desensitized.

 

[msakey]

I lost interest in Oblivion because I didn't have to work to achieve anything, in Morrowind I felt a real sense of achievment by the time I felt comfortable fighting even low level enemies because of the effort and difficulty in getting to that point.

I was very disappointed by Oblivion, but I had difficulty saying why; actually it was the hardest review I've ever written. You sum it up very well there - it had no sense of accomplishment. It also had no sense of epic... ness.

Morrowind, difficulty imbalances aside, was Epic. Here you are in some remote backwater (ever looked at a map of Tamriel? Vvardenfell is the very definition of "insignificant"), dealing with what's essentially a local problem, and somehow you felt caught up in something huge and magnificent - that sense of accomplishment you mention was palpable. In Oblivion you're literally trying to save the world from Hell itself and I for one just didn't care.

 

[The_Dragon_Rising]

Hard is when, after the first try due to inexperience, after the second time due to lack of refinement, after the third time due to bad luck, getting to the fourth time and being unable to do it, it is too hard.

 

[JakubK666]

hmmm not sure if KOTOR boss fight counts but killing Malak without drain life( it allowed you to full heal off dead Jedi's too) seemed impossible(I only had a bunch of stimulants, twelve med packs and five life supports). Then again if you chose talents with the boss battle in mind( Force Resists and Drain Life among most important skills) the actual battle was a walk in the park.

To me it seems like the most broken boss battle ever.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

hmmm not sure if KOTOR boss fight counts but killing Malak without drain life( it allowed you to full heal off dead Jedi's too) seemed impossible(I only had a bunch of stimulants, twelve med packs and five life supports). Then again if you chose talents with the boss battle in mind( Force Resists and Drain Life among most important skills) the actual battle was a walk in the park.

To me it seems like the most broken boss battle ever.

I did it without Drain Life or Force Resist.

 

[Conqueror Kenny]

i might just go jump off a bridge for saying this but gituar hero *jumps off bridge*. Ow

 

[WhiteFangofWhoa]

Interesting dilemma. At what point does 'Hard' become 'Unfair'? Depends greatly on the genre, but FPS shooters allow for the most common analogy- if you die due to an ambush, or something you could have prevented, it's fair game. If you die suddenly with no warning at all due to glitches or crazy-farsighted snipers you can't see (Farcry), it's unfair.

Basically, if there's a way around an obstacle that doesn't involve blind luck or something no one would ever guess without a FAQ, it's fair. There's only a few games I've ever played where I felt it was too hard for it's own good. One that comes to mind is the mission in the first Rainbow Six (Glass Tiger?) where any detection or deaths means a mission failure. There are two floors accessible from the rooftop starting point- one takes you right into a sniperfest extravaganza in the main lobby (for the guards, not you) and the other one opens into an elegant hallway with one patrolling guard. This is the only way in. You basically have to make a guess when the guard is in the hall since the shaft metal prevents you from hearing his footfalls. One try in four, you'll make it across the hall to the next room without being seen if you run... That makes one down, another 5 or so close shaves like that to go. Fun?

Limited by technology as older games were, you can forgive them a certain lack of realism. In turn, more realistic games tend create a better sense of achievement if that's what you're aiming for. Strategy games are generally better at this because you have a lot more options than just one guy's weapons- no matter how many times a mission or campaign kicks your butt, there's a bunch of other ways of doing it you haven't tried yet. Warcraft 3's Frozen Throne Campaigns are legendary for their difficulty on Hard mode, but with the sole exception of the final mission, trial and error won the day for me.

At the risk of repeating material from my last post, I thought Advance Wars: Days of Ruin's last mission to be the unfair kind of Hard. There's tons of walkthroughs available and I did eventually win, but every single guide referred to a certain point where you would build high-priority units (usually Medium Tanks) at a far off area to glitch the AI into Mortaring them instead of your main force. That would be like finding that the last boss in a NG/DMC/GoW style action game will sit perfectly still and let you kill it the entire battle if you walk around in a circle 3 times and slash at thin air. If you have to exploit the AI via nonsensical moves to win, it's the broken kind of Hard.

 

[Strafe Mcgee]

I really like the controller-shatteringly difficult games, In fact, I'm looking for some good ones.
I've never found games too hard, I've never just given up on a game, but some have taken me longer than most
doom 3 on nightmare was a pain in the ass, but a fun one.
I've finished morrowind, ninja gaiden, just about anything anyone thinks is too hard. any suggestions?

Devil May Cry 3 is pretty tough, but if you've beaten Contra then I'm not sure if that's really gonna cut it. Dynamite Headdy and Alien Soldier for the genesis are excellent games with a pretty brutal level of difficulty towards the end. Lemmings is also crazy difficult on the hardest setting and if you haven't tried I wanna be the guy yet then you really should cos it's all kinds of awesome.

 

[propertyofcobra]

Devil May Cry 3 is pretty tough, but if you've beaten Contra then I'm not sure if that's really gonna cut it. Dynamite Headdy and Alien Soldier for the genesis are excellent games with a pretty brutal level of difficulty towards the end. Lemmings is also crazy difficult on the hardest setting and if you haven't tried I wanna be the guy yet then you really should cos it's all kinds of awesome.

Oh god, I couldn't beat Alien Soldier USING A BLOODY EMULATOR AND SAVESTATES, let alone even have a shot of seeing the ending with my mega drive.

 

[heybrahsupbrah]

i have to say playing COD 4 on veteran then attempting to free the hostage in the arcade epilogue.

 

[GenHellspawn]

Halfway through Mortal Kombat: Armagedden. The AI all of a sudden thinks you need an ass whoppin.