How much "evil" can you tolerate in a game's design?

[Signa]

I grew up in the NES/SNES era, so I have seen my fair share of games. Now, in the age of emulators, virtual consoles, and (gasp!) torrents, I'm able to go back and enjoy many of the memorable games from my childhood that I only picked up for a few moments and never completed. Because of this retro gaming kick I've been on lately I have to say, games have really changed for the better.

I guess what I'm trying to get across here is, back in the day, games were just simply games, and you would have to deal with anything that was thrown at you, no matter how sadistic or evil the game's design was. Little consideration was taken in how much a player would enjoy the challenge, and how many controllers would get broken by clenched, angry fists.

One game that comes to mind is Ninja Gaiden. Many old arcade and NES games were like this, as it seemed more important to kill the player than to see that they had fun. Obviously I just don't get Ninja Gaiden because I ended up hating it, but others feel that it was rewarding enough to play this game that current generation iterations of the game exist now.

The game I just finished that inspired me to make this thread is Doom. The sadistic crap I had to go through to beat this game was staggering. I couldn't walk into an empty room or pick up any items I didn't fight for without feeling apprehensive. What's worse, is that I liked it that way. It was a fun challenge, and the whole game while abusive, was terribly fun every time I booted it up.

So I ask the rest of you, what are some games that were frustrating for you? Why did you play them? What redeemed or condemned them for you, and what mechanics can instantly save a game from being awful?

 

[Nimbus]

Have you ever played IWBTG? That is "evil" done right.

 

[Graustein]

I downloaded Ninja Gaiden this morning for Virtual Console. In half an hour I died more times than I have throughout my entire first playthrough of Super Metroid. I got to the first checkpoint in level two.

I don't know why, but I'm loving it.

 

[Scorched_Cascade]

Have you ever played IWBTG? That is "evil" done right.

Haha I Wanna Be The Guy is an awesome game; ridiculously hard, addictive and free-this nomination is hereby seconded.

 

[crimsondynamics]

Having played through the entirety of Kid Icarus and Ghosts n Goblins, I can proudly say I graduated Magna Cum Laude in Evil Game Design.

 

[dukethepcdr]

I can handle any game being challenging as long as its the right things that make it so. What I cant stand is when the control scheme is what is making the game hard for me. No game can be forgiven for making a game very difficult to play mainly because it is so hard to make your character do what he/she/it is supposed to do.

Another thing I can't stand that makes some games too difficult is the camera. This seems to show up most on third person shooters and 3-D platformers. If I can't control the camera so I can get a good view of what I'm doing, it drives me crazy.


I'd say the hardest games I have played that I didn't mind them being so dang hard were the Mega Man games. Those games have a reputation for being hard, so I already knew I'd have trouble with them before I even tried them. Mega Man is easy to control. He usually sticks his landings when jumping onto platforms (I cant stand games where your character slides off the platforms for no good reason). He is limited in what he can do, but you quickly find ways to get around that and the levels are usually designed to work with his limitations. What makes Mega Man hard are the bosses and figuring out the right order to beat the bosses in so that you can beat them all. I've played several Mega Man games and don't remember thinking that I was getting ripped off by not being able to get past a certain part for a bad reason.

 

[Samurai Goomba]

As much as Metal Slug 1, 2 and X, but not as much as MS3. I can take DMD mode on DMC3: SE, but not on the original Devil May Cry. I can rise to the challenge of KMS in God Hand, but not Hard Mode KMS.

It's hard to specify. If, when I lose, it's always MY fault, I can live with that. If I feel like there was nothing I could have done, then the game's just not any fun for me. Jinpachi from Tekken 5 is a perfect example of this. He, on his own, MADE Tekken 5 not fun for me.

 

[corporate_gamer]

As much as Metal Slug 1, 2 and X, but not as much as MS3. I can take DMD mode on DMC3: SE, but not on the original Devil May Cry. I can rise to the challenge of KMS in God Hand, but not Hard Mode KMS.

It's hard to specify. If, when I lose, it's always MY fault, I can live with that. If I feel like there was nothing I could have done, then the game's just not any fun for me. Jinpachi from Tekken 5 is a perfect example of this. He, on his own, MADE Tekken 5 not fun for me.

Totally agree. So long as i COULD of won, if only i had been better or in most cases faster, i'm fine with losing. Its only when its a completely unfair death that gets me, grenade spamming for example.

And this is why i think games have become a lot more forgiving with the saves and health. Because as they have got more complex an element of chance is inserted. And it is not longer guarenteed to work. You could learn how to complete the old mario games by following a pattern. But in the newest COD the people would move around a bit and come from different places and react differently. So sometimes a section was easy and sometimes it was impossible (when you get hit by 7 grendades at once) this both made it much more fun and unfair, so they made games more forgiving when you died to compensate.

 

[karmapolizei]

I am happy to say that I know my frustration threshold pretty well. To be precise: It's zero.

If a game throws any kind of fake difficulty at me, I throw it away.
If the number of bad design choices that make a game frustrating exceeds a certain (and pretty low) amount, I throw it away.

So, no, I can't stand evil at all.

 

[KiiWii]

I am happy to say that I know my frustration threshold pretty well. To be precise: It's zero.

If a game throws any kind of fake difficulty at me, I throw it away.
If the number of bad design choices that make a game frustrating exceeds a certain (and pretty low) amount, I throw it away.

So, no, I can't stand evil at all.

Agreed
I don't think I'm very good at tolerating difficult games either. I played through psyconauts but still haven't finished it because the platforming at the end was so damn fiddly. I ended up going on youtube and finding a video of the end of the game. I loved ever second of that game, but the end was just to hard to tolerate..

Mostly though, theres a balance. I'll weigh up how much i like the game, and how much i want to progress and beat it, against how much frustration its bringing me. If the usually if the game is really that good I'll play through no matter what, sometimes though i give up, which always makes me feel like I've let the game down somewhat..

 

[GeeseH]

yeah it's kinda funny, you spend all day facing a seemingly impossible task ending with sweaty palms, a dejected look on your face mumbling 'how...how can i... this things impossible! *pause for whisky sip & cigarette pull*'

eventually leave it go to bed, wake up and nail it on the second try. suddenly so easy!

don't think bruce lee was kidding when he mentioned emotional content. that s*** was personal.

these days though just a fair challenge will do fine thanks.

 

[RhinoTuna]

A game is fun up until they try and make you do the impossible. Where you have to time your jumps or shots or whatever-the-hell-you-want within milliseconds and have next to no margin of error otherwise you fail.

Fuck those games.

Yeah i'm looking at you; Battletoads in Battlemaniacs. That game was pure bullshit after the second level. I only beat it because i kept saving state in an emulator every five seconds. It is nigh impossible to beat without saving state unless you're a machine programmed to beat the game.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that evil -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Evil is right.

Evil works.

Evil clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Evil, in all of its forms -- for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

 

[EzraPound]

I've beaten DOOM and DOOM II and every 2D Sonic, so suffice to say I'm mildly attuned to evil.

 

[mmmurple]

Ever play sonic? the 2006 one. That game was conceived in the depths of hell. I tried to play it. Put in a good number of hours as well.
Evil can be a good thing when the designers planned for it to be hard, but when the controls and camera angles and general gameplay are shit, the game is not evil, just bad.

 

[GoblinOnFire]

The point is, ladies and gentleman, that evil -- for lack of a better word -- is good.

Evil is right.

Evil works.

Evil clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

Evil, in all of its forms -- for life, for money, for love, knowledge -- has marked the upward surge of mankind.

ooooh, a film guru! Take me now!

 

[Mindex]

I can tolerate alot, just as long as they are not super charging the enemies.

 

[Mariena]

I only played Megaman 2 of the series, and while I could finish all 8 levels/bosses before moving on to Dr. Wily.. I had serious, serious trouble getting even past the first stage. And of course, die too many times and it's game over. Start over. In your face.

And that's where emulator saves come in! .. that was a serious quicksave quickload fest. And another game that was just frustratingly difficult? Vortex on the SNES. One of the few games, along with Starfox, used the first Super FX chip.. and was painfully difficult. But I'd like to blame it on the quasi-3D that the FX chip was blurting out. It looked pretty nasty, even back then.

 

[waffletaco]

Battletoads for the snes and super ghouls and ghosts for the true faces of evil.

 

[L.B. Jeffries]

Normally challenge or excessively difficult game design gets on my nerves because there is rarely any point behind it. Some people put a lot of thought into it, like the Halo games, and others just juice the enemies, make impossible jumps, and generally do no actual designing behind the evil.

But yeah, back when I was younger I decided to impress all my friends who could beat Contra and mastered the original Castlevania. You basically just memorize the entire game and program your muscle memory to every act. It took about a month. When I finally killed Dracula, I remember just staring at the credits and not knowing what to do.