How to (NOT) bring fresh new concepts and ideas into gaming. (Or: Why we can't have nice things)

[The Funslinger]

snip

In order of all of those statements:

Six Days in Falluja failed due to non-gamers thinking it butchered the memory of the soldiers or some BS like that.

Similar thing with MoH.

With Lara Croft, I see what you mean, but I think that's just a whiny, loud minority.

Mirror's Edge didn't really fail. It won an award due to its original concept. A lot of people like it and the dislike it received was because it was more of a first attempt at what it was trying to do, and was rough around the edges. At times, the game stopped you dead, and the shooter mechanic wasn't great. People respected what it was trying to do, though.

Dark Souls isn't exactly trial and error when it's the sequel to a similar game, and the premis is "remember when games used to be really brutal?"

No, we don't want to be handheld. That's not much of a game, but more a story where you press buttons to progress.

I kind of see your point here, although there's nothing wrong with wanting devs to aim high. That said, a lot of the bitching about games like Skyrim is misplaced.

The next two points I have little to say about. Seems like you're making a random claim and expecting it to stick. That said, some people genuinely do have financial difficulties, and it's a shame they often have to put their hobby on hold. It's not a valid excuse for piracy, though. Nothing is.

You made a similar point above, and are exaggerating. Though I have seen people ranting who clearly don't understand the process of design. But every demographic has bull headed idiots.

Unfortunately, I kind of have to agree with you here. Funnily enough, I never heard this whining about physical expansion pack discs. It's essentially the same thing, but with DLC you get it in minutes...

If a first game didn't do so well at first, and then got realized as some kind of cult classic, maybe it does deserve a sequel? I mean clearly there's a demographic for it, you inadvertently state that in your point. And with a game that's taking a risk, there's nothing wrong with waiting for a price drop, especially if you suffer from budget constraints mentioned above.

While you do make a couple of points, it just seems you're going the Oxford Don route and have the preconceived notion that gamers are arseholes, and so you're putting general practice in a bad light. Just about anything can be rephrased to make it sound like a douchey action, you know.

"God, did you see that dick head just then? Went up to that begging crippled guy and just put money in his cup. Get off your high horse, you pretentious wanker!"

 

[Kahunaburger]

It's nice that you base your entire opinion of a game that isn't even out on a Kotaku article.

Or, you know, quotes from the designer.

Yes, a quote from the designer, taken out of context and blow out of proportion.

There are contexts in which:

You see that in the beginning of the game, where we begin to build her up and give her confidence to cross the ledge, cross the plane, she forages for food and she?s feeling really successful. Then towards the end we start to really hit her, and to break her down. Her best friend is kidnapped, she?s taken hostage, she?s almost raped, we put her in this position where we turned her into a cornered animal.

RON: ?And then what happens is her best friend gets kidnapped, she gets taken prisoner by scavengers on the island. They try to rape her, and-?

KOTAKU: ?They try to rape her??

RON: ?She?s literally turned into a cornered animal. And that?s a huge step in her evolution: she?s either forced to fight back or die and that?s what we?re showing today.?

particularly in the context of:

?When people play Lara, they don?t really project themselves into the character,? Rosenberg told me at E3 last week when I asked if it was difficult to develop for a female protagonist.

?They?re more like ?I want to protect her.? There?s this sort of dynamic of ?I?m going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.??

?She?s definitely the hero but? you?re kind of like her helper,? he said. ?When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.?

is acceptable? Please elaborate.

 

[Elamdri]

It's nice that you base your entire opinion of a game that isn't even out on a Kotaku article.

Actually I don't.

Penny Arcade Report

Would you like me to assume that he 'misspoke' twice, in two separate interviews with major video game sites? In any case, what he says in both of those pieces merely underlines my initial reaction to the trailer.

I'm pretty sure both those articles are from the same E3 press conference. Either that or that was their press litany. It's pretty much identical quotes in those articles.

Regardless, my point is that ever since that article ran, we've had people stating the most outrageous shit without even stopping to think that maybe they haven't seen the full game, that maybe words can sound a lot worse that reality, and maybe that they shouldn't jump to outlandish conclusions based on their own prejudices.

We've already seen the "attempted rape" scene in the trailer. A guy grabs her, puts his hand on her hip, she knees him in the groin, he grabs her and tries to bite/kiss her neck and she bites his ear off an knocks his gun away. They have a fight over the gun and he ends up getting shot in the face.

That's it. That's all that there is to it and yet people are out there claiming that this is some mysoginistic, sexist, rape/torture simulator and that the designers hate Lara Croft and that this is the worst thing ever to happen to video games and because of this Mitt Romney will win the general election and Cthulhu will rise from his slumber in R'lyeh and devour the world.

I'm just sick of it. I'm sick and tired of dealing with panicky, whiny, self-centered spazzes on the internet flooding the places I like to go to. If the game comes out, and it's terrible, and the stupid scene is handled terribly and it's offensive, then sure. Complain and moan all you like. At least then it's JUSTIFIED. But until then, please hold your grievances until you have something solid for them to stand upon.

 

[Frybird]

- Gamers want more realistic games, but they don't want real scenarios (That's why Six Days in Fallujah failed)

You can't say it failed commercially or critically if it was never released. It hasn't even been officially cancelled.

Then i say it failed to be ever released, no?

There's nothing 'mature' about the Tomb Raider reboot.

I'm going to quote Grant Morrison here. Back when comics were in the midst of their 'dark and gritty' phase he wrote an issue of Animal Man in which the hero meets the writer, who talks about why the hero's family was killed in an earlier storyline. The writer replies:

"Pointless violence and death is 'realistic'. Comic books are 'realistic' now."

"We thought that by making your world more violent we would make it more 'realistic', more 'adult'. God help us if that's what it means."

There's a place for genuine mature story telling in video games, but an action adventure series like Tomb Raider is not that place, and I for one don't trust Ron 'Rape' Rosenberg to deliver a story that rises above the level of an 80s exploitation flick.

And yet, these are all assumptions fueled by a mindblowingly weird controversy, because, as gamesradar put it:

http://www.gamesradar.com/controversial-tomb-raider-rape-scene-youve-already-seen-it/

I don't want to discuss it here ...

(Short version: People do rape. It's nothing to be proud of. But, it's kind of a reality. It might make for bad storytelling, but it also might not. Having people blow up a pseudo scandal over a single scene of a bad guy groping the heroine suggestively as seen in the trailer has nothing to do with sexism or any kind of appropriateness, but everything with hyperbole and being offended for offended-ness sake)

...but i am immensely frustrated at people joining on the hate and being needlessly judgmental whenever some game tries something, anything out of the ordinary that someone somewhere might find offensive.
And having to hear reasoning like "It's not supposed to be in an action adventure" makes me want to puke salty tears.

Because...well...WHY? Because you say so? Because Action Adventures don't usually do something like that?

It's people saying something like this actually preventing any development of games and gaming in general. And even if the worst happens and Tomb Raider ends up riding on cheap storytelling gimmicks with more than unfortunate implications...you are free to hate on it all you want WHEN it happens. But i'd rather see a horrible game on the market than having no game at all. That way, it might teach Devs and Pubs to do better. If it doesn't, or people end up judging it unfairly, it teaches them to not even try...

 

[Sixcess]

I'm pretty sure both those articles are from the same E3 press conference. Either that or that was their press litany. It's pretty much identical quotes in those articles.

Exactly. Their press litany. Their script. A script that they threw out the window a week later and are now denying was ever intended, when it finally sank in to their tiny minds that talking about even an attempted rape of a much loved action game heroine was probably a bad idea...

If the game comes out, and it's terrible, and the stupid scene is handled terribly and it's offensive, then sure. Complain and moan all you like. At least then it's JUSTIFIED. But until then, please hold your grievances until you have something solid for them to stand upon.

I've never had much time for this argument. I'm not basing my opinions on rumours or leaked footage - I'm basing it on exactly what Crystal Dynamics have chosen to put out there in the form of interviews and trailer footage. If I can't form an opinion good or bad based on that then what's the point in trailers or previews at all?

 

[Elamdri]

It's nice that you base your entire opinion of a game that isn't even out on a Kotaku article.

Or, you know, quotes from the designer.

Yes, a quote from the designer, taken out of context and blow out of proportion.

There are contexts in which:

You see that in the beginning of the game, where we begin to build her up and give her confidence to cross the ledge, cross the plane, she forages for food and she?s feeling really successful. Then towards the end we start to really hit her, and to break her down. Her best friend is kidnapped, she?s taken hostage, she?s almost raped, we put her in this position where we turned her into a cornered animal.

RON: ?And then what happens is her best friend gets kidnapped, she gets taken prisoner by scavengers on the island. They try to rape her, and-?

KOTAKU: ?They try to rape her??

RON: ?She?s literally turned into a cornered animal. And that?s a huge step in her evolution: she?s either forced to fight back or die and that?s what we?re showing today.?

particularly in the context of:

?When people play Lara, they don?t really project themselves into the character,? Rosenberg told me at E3 last week when I asked if it was difficult to develop for a female protagonist.

?They?re more like ?I want to protect her.? There?s this sort of dynamic of ?I?m going to this adventure with her and trying to protect her.??

?She?s definitely the hero but? you?re kind of like her helper,? he said. ?When you see her have to face these challenges, you start to root for her in a way that you might not root for a male character.?

is acceptable? Please elaborate.

And this is just my point. People read this and go "OMG, They're turning this into some sexist white knight simulator where Lara Croft can't fend for herself and needs a man to stop her from being raped"

That's idiotic and untrue.

1st: So what that the game has a scene in it where the guy attempts to rape her? Why can't a game have a scene like that in it? Especially if the designers are going for a grim-dark reboot of the series. You have a young, pretty woman, lost and alone on a island, captured by pirates, not exactly the most scrupulous of people and one tries to rape her and she fights back and kills him. Why is that a big deal? Nothing about that scenario is unrealistic or exploitative. It's not even a very graphic scene. Hell, Buffy the Vampire Slayer had a far more graphic attempted rape scene in that show. And if you think that's bad, please don't watch Boys Don't Cry.

2nd: This all stems from someone taking the designers words "Protect her" and twisting them. Sometimes I sit and wonder how Fox News can be so popular when everything about it is so obviously twisted and then I see stuff like this and realize how naive people really are. It's clear from the context of the videos and from the interview that Lara Croft is not a survival or combat expert in this game. She's not going out there and kicking ass and taking names. She's trying to survive and as the gamer, it's your job to protect the character from the environment and the villains. And it's NOT because she's a woman and women are incapable of taking care of themselves or whatever nonsense people are reading into this. It's because ANY person similar to Lara, male or female, would need to protect themselves and as the game, you are the instrumentality by which the character accomplishes that goal. It's simple concepts and yet people insist on reading into them far more complex meaning that what is truly there.

 

[Elamdri]

I'm pretty sure both those articles are from the same E3 press conference. Either that or that was their press litany. It's pretty much identical quotes in those articles.

Exactly. Their press litany. Their script. A script that they threw out the window a week later and are now denying was ever intended, when it finally sank in to their tiny minds that talking about even an attempted rape of a much loved action game heroine was probably a bad idea...

Which I think was cowardly on their part. Why back down? The scene is in the game; they haven't removed it. Why can't we talk about it like adults? Why does it have to be this thing of "THERE IS AN ATTEMPTED RAPE SCENE IN THE NEW TOMB RAIDER, RAWR INTERNET RAGE!" and then the company backs down in the face of mindless fury? Why can't they stand their ground and explain their decision? We are all so afraid of rape that we're nearly petrified when it comes to talking about it, so instead we instantly attack any mention of the word rather than deal with the reality and explore the issue.

If the game comes out, and it's terrible, and the stupid scene is handled terribly and it's offensive, then sure. Complain and moan all you like. At least then it's JUSTIFIED. But until then, please hold your grievances until you have something solid for them to stand upon.

I've never had much time for this argument. I'm not basing my opinions on rumours or leaked footage - I'm basing it on exactly what Crystal Dynamics have chosen to put out there in the form of interviews and trailer footage. If I can't form an opinion good or bad based on that then what's the point in trailers or previews at all?

Because interviews and trailers are hype. They're designed to get you excited about something. That being said, I can't imagine what exactly has you upset if you've seen the Crossroads trailer.

 

[Kahunaburger]

And this is just my point. People read this and go "OMG, They're turning this into some sexist white knight simulator where Lara Croft can't fend for herself and needs a man to stop her from being raped"

That's idiotic and untrue.

Well, if Crystal Dynamics is smart it certainly is untrue now. That's the nice thing about giving them feedback on dev comments so early - they have plenty of time to, if the comments are reflective of game content, fix the problem.

For instance,

You have a young, pretty woman, lost and alone on a island, captured by pirates, not exactly the most scrupulous of people and one tries to rape her and she fights back and kills him.

Is no longer what the company's saying on the subject. The new party line is:

Sexual assault of any kind is categorically not a theme that we cover in this game.

EDIT:

Why can't they stand their ground and explain their decision?

Probably because it wasn't a very bright idea in the first place, and was probably not the result of a hard series of conversations along the lines of "okay, so our game about climbing on things and shooting arrows is going to include a triggering subject that is frequently mishandled in fiction to an offensive degree. We need to figure out an intelligent, non-shitty way to do this."

 

[Frybird]

snip

Dark Souls isn't exactly trial and error when it's the sequel to a similar game, and the premis is "remember when games used to be really brutal?"

I was actually mentioning Demon's Souls, the first game.
And it was basically Trial and Error as a gameplay mechanic. Same as Mirror's Edge. Many people claim you don't have to die in DS all the time if you are careful. Same as Mirror's Edge.
Trial and Error is actually neither bad nor good in itself, but still people love to throw it around like an insult.

I kind of see your point here, although there's nothing wrong with wanting devs to aim high. That said, a lot of the bitching about games like Skyrim is misplaced.

I was referring to people having unrealistic expectations about games (or, before anyone starts to spew out game names that fullfill the quota, they have expectations that don't fit), especially in the light of the other things i wrote. As did you.

The next two points I have little to say about. Seems like you're making a random claim and expecting it to stick. That said, some people genuinely do have financial difficulties, and it's a shame they often have to put their hobby on hold. It's not a valid excuse for piracy, though. Nothing is.

You know who else gets into financial difficulties? People who sell thier game under value and don't turn a profit.
I've seen so many instances of a new Xbox Live Arcade or PSN Games coming out and people saying something along the lines of "Should've been $5 cheaper" or Games being to pricey. And as with everything, they sometimes are right! Yet often times it's just people pulling out random numbers out of their ass to make a point where actually there is none.

If a first game didn't do so well at first, and then got realized as some kind of cult classic, maybe it does deserve a sequel? I mean clearly there's a demographic for it, you inadvertently state that in your point. And with a game that's taking a risk, there's nothing wrong with waiting for a price drop, especially if you suffer from budget constraints mentioned above.

Well, i don't have anything against sequels to "Cult Classics"..but i always ask myself: "If i was a developer, do i make a game that people say they want, or do i make a game they actually buy?"
And waiting for a price drop, especially in online distribution, means less profit per game. It's still better than no profit, but there is everything wrong about people only buying games at full price when they know that they'll get exactly what they expect while being unwilling to put some trust and excitement and money into new IPs and "fresh" Games.

While you do make a couple of points, it just seems you're going the Oxford Don route and have the preconceived notion that gamers are arseholes, and so you're putting general practice in a bad light. Just about anything can be rephrased to make it sound like a douchey action, you know.

I don't think that gamers are arseholes. Only most of them.
I use broad generalization because i hope people get that i can never talk about gamers as a single entity, and put practices into bad light when i consider them bad or see hypocrisy in it.

 

[Elamdri]

And this is just my point. People read this and go "OMG, They're turning this into some sexist white knight simulator where Lara Croft can't fend for herself and needs a man to stop her from being raped"

That's idiotic and untrue.

Well, if Crystal Dynamics is smart it certainly is untrue now. That's the nice thing about giving them feedback on dev comments so early - they have plenty of time to, if the comments are reflective of game content, fix the problem.

For instance,

You have a young, pretty woman, lost and alone on a island, captured by pirates, not exactly the most scrupulous of people and one tries to rape her and she fights back and kills him.

Is no longer what the company's saying on the subject. The new party line is:

Sexual assault of any kind is categorically not a theme that we cover in this game.

"Not a theme" is the key word there. What that sentence tells me is that the scene in question was never really meant to be about rape or sexual assault. It's clear that they didn't mean it to be any sort of commentary or even a major element to the story, and they're trying to clarify that in the wake of people making such a big deal about it. They're trying to say that this isn't going to be some thing where Laura is almost raped and it dramatically defines her character and she only becomes the person who she is because of it or whatever people are reading into this.


EDIT:

EDIT:

Why can't they stand their ground and explain their decision?

Probably because it wasn't a very bright idea in the first place, and was probably not the result of a hard series of conversations along the lines of "okay, so our game about climbing on things and shooting arrows is going to include a triggering subject that is frequently mishandled in fiction to an offensive degree. We need to figure out an intelligent, non-shitty way to do this."

I agree with you that this is probably the case, because as I said above they likely didn't plan for it to be a major story theme. That being said, I feel like they still wasted a good opportunity. As someone who's very interested in Criminology, it's sad that we squander opportunities to examine criminal behavior so often in our media because it could be viewed as offensive or triggering. I know that's very high-level thought to apply to a video game, but I feel that if we can't demand more of our entertainment, then what is the point of bothering to make games like the new Tomb Raider if it's going to be more of the same crap.

 

[varulfic]

I seem to remember that gamers weren't that vocal either way about Six Days in Fallujah, it got killed because the media had a knee-jerk reaction to it and the publishers didn't have the stones to stand up to them.

Yeah, it had nothing to do with gamers, all the bad press came from outside the industry. Personally, I thought it was the most interesting war game of the past couple of years, I would have bought it in a second.

 

[Khanht Cope]

It's nice that you base your entire opinion of a game that isn't even out on a Kotaku article.

Actually I don't.

Penny Arcade Report

Would you like me to assume that he 'misspoke' twice, in two separate interviews with major video game sites? In any case, what he says in both of those pieces merely underlines my initial reaction to the trailer.

The fact that you've formed your views from that article says to me that you carry all the pig-headed, willful ignorance of any die-hard misogynist.

You've looked at what they've had to say; dismissed it all out-of-hand and then inserted your own biased position into their mouths, that was formed from partial information leaks.

It's that neurotic style of feminism where other positions, intentions and points of view don't count. Like the hardcore community feminist who takes harrassment "very seriously" and advocates silent report networks and secret blacklists so the men who fail to step around invisible eggshells when speaking to the women at those meetings can be indentified and then lynched.

If a timid girl is brought to teary hysterics because something about the look on my face wasn't quite right when I said hello and offered a handshake; I'm not taking responsibility for that; that woman is unstable and it's her issue. But apparently in this mindset, my position has no weight; because if the girl finds it unsettling, then it's unsettling. Period.

That same article has an account in the comments from a women who served in the military and had some very unpleasant experiences of her own. She called this 'perpetual victim' mentality in feminism one of the biggest hurdles to women like her.

But what I think is that feminism has little to do with all your knuckle-dragging with this game. I don't think you care one way or the other if it's at least an honest/well-meaning effort with unfortunate allusions to sensitive material; or exploitative trash. (because that article shows they've been researching examples with clear intent on better characterization, including successful reboots that do it well)

I think it has waaaay more to do with this being different from classic Tomb Raider and you getting jealous about it. Do you think if this game tanks they'll somehow learn their lesson and chuck together another classic Tomb Raider game that ends up being the best ever?

 

[Sixcess]

The fact that you're forming your views from that article says to me that you carry all the pig-headed, willful ignorance of any die-hard misogynist.

You've looked at what they've had to say; dismissed it all out-of-hand and then inserted your own biased position into their mouths, that was formed from partial information leaks.

What? I've based my opinion on this game from the E3 trailers and interviews with the developers. In what possible way can those be considered 'leaks'?

It's that neurotic style of feminism

I would not in any way describe myself as a feminist. I'm not sure what's given you that impression. I'd prefer if you responded to what I'm actually saying, rather than arguing points I've never raised.

If a timid girl is taken to teary hysterics because something about the look on my face wasn't quite right when I said hello and offered a handshake; I'm not taking responsibility for that; that woman is unstable and it's her issue. But apparently in this mindset, my position has no weight; because if the girl finds it unsettling, then it's unsettling. Period.

Yeah, um... I'm not sure of the relevance of that, to anything. I mean hey, I'm sorry if girls cry when you say hello to them but...

Well, let's move on...

But what I think is that feminism has little to do with all your knuckle-dragging with this game. I don't think you care one way or the other if it's at least an honest/well-meaning effort; or exploitative trash.

It has nothing to do with feminism at all, so your long diatribe on the subject was kind of wasted on me.

A lot of the arguments I've seen during this discussion do suggest subtle sexism in the gaming community, aimed at both men and women. I've been accused several times of 'white knighting' in my defence of the lead character, as if the only reason I'm criticising significant changes in the portrayal of the lead character in a videogame franchise I've long enjoyed is because she's female. Seriously, when was the last time you saw someone being accused of white knighting Master Chief? It was never.

The fact is I don't give a damn about sexism in videogames, except perhaps when it's really over the top, and even then I'll likely just laugh at it and move on to something more interesting. I'm not pushing some feminism/sexism agenda here, I'm just talking about a video game franchise I like.

I think it has waaaay more to do with this being different from classic Tomb Raider and you getting jealous about it.

Here you're right and wrong. Yes, I dislike the new direction, or more precisely I dislike the way in which they're going about it. Even if I thought it was a good idea to add emotional depth to Lara Croft I'd still be uncomfortable that they're putting so much emphasis on her weakness and vulnerability. as someone else said, they've went from one extreme (invicible fearless badass) to another (weak frightened victim).

Do you think if this game tanks, they'll somehow learn their lesson and chuck together another classic style that ends up being the best ever?

I have no idea.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

- Gamers want more realistic games, but they don't want real scenarios (That's why Six Days in Fallujah failed)

You can't say it failed commercially or critically if it was never released. It hasn't even been officially cancelled.

Then i say it failed to be ever released, no?

It's shacky, there's no reason to assume that it was because only because not all gamers liked it. And it's still a sore-thumb up there considering all the other games have been released and have gotten actual reviews.

I'd just use a different example if you want to say that gamers don't want "real scenarios." Cause most military games (CoD, Ghost Recon, Battlefield, etc) are based on actual scenarios to some extent.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

In other words, gamers are whiny, unpleaseable, spoiled dipshits with ridiculous, unreasonable, and often contradictory expectations.
Also your first 2 had more to do with the pressure put down by non-gamers then it did gamers which begs to question why anyone in the industry actually cared.

 

[shrekfan246]

Snip

I'm sure most of the people on this website will debate all of your points to death until you're sick of it, but I just wanted to say that I love you. I've been seeing so much inconsistency and cognitive dissonance about what people actually think they want lately that I'm just losing my mind.

 

[DoPo]

Snip

I'm sure most of the people on this website will debate all of your points to death until you're sick of it, but I just wanted to say that I love you. I've been seeing so much inconsistency and cognitive dissonance about what people actually think they want lately that I'm just losing my mind.

And it is not AT ALL possible people actually want one thing and DIFFERENT people want a DIFFERENT thing and both are correct and you are making a broad generalisation that is wrong?

Disregard that statement - we, Legion, officially deny associating ourself with it. Furthermore, we can't help noticing you haven't been assimilated joined us yet. Report to your nearest game dispense centre, a.k.a., "game store" and say you want to be part of the hive. We will be expecting you.

 

[Grygor]

1st: So what that the game has a scene in it where the guy attempts to rape her? Why can't a game have a scene like that in it?

Firstly, because (attempted) rape as a catalyst for female character development is a terribly overused trope.

Secondly, because most developers do not have the skill and temperament to be able to pull it off well. The last few weeks have shown me that Crystal Dynamics, for example, would not be able to do so...

 

[Zydrate]

- Gamers want more realistic games, but they don't want real scenarios (That's why Six Days in Fallujah failed)

People misunderstand this... I think "Realism" is being overused.
What I REALLY mean is that I want "Believable" characters in "believable" situations.