How would you improve a Pokemon game mechanic?

[xaszatm]

Well, first of all, you're absolutely wrong about them "not changing the formula". Pokemon Ranger, Pokemon Conquest, Mystery Dungeon, Pokemon Trozei and older titles like Pokemon Snap, Pokemon Colosseum and Pokemon Stadium all radically change the Pokemon formula. You've literally just chosen to outright ignore them and claim that they never attempt anything new.

Hell, your idea to let players choose from an extensive list is the feature of the Mystery dungeon games. The player's Pokemon character is determined by a personality quiz at the beginning of the game, and the possible starting Pokemon list is quite large.

And there's a reason that grass/water/fire are the only types available at the start of the game. It's because Pokemon is a game franchise aimed at children, and the type triangle is the easiest one for children to comprehend and understand.

I learned my lesson on those half assed spin off games when i was a kid. They tend to be unimpressive. I am talking about the main games, you know, the ones that actually count.

So have a default of three starters, Fire, Water and Grass, but let us go off menu and pick our own starter. Idiots can have their simple choice handed to them while people who give more of a shit or have a preference can pick what they want. And don't underestimate kids, they can be pretty sharp with this shit.

Oh armchair CEO's, will you ever stop me from facepalming myself? No? Ok then...

First off, it's becoming increasingly clear that you haven't been playing Pokemon for a long while, as you seem to have a high opinion on the starter Pokemon, as if they are required to be in your party permenantly. Here's a tip: if people don't like their starter, they use a different Pokemon. What truly would be the purpose of having more than three starters? They have more options to begin with? Well, seeing how I could catch a Fire, Electric, Water, Bug, Grass, Normal, Psychic, and Flying type Pokemon before the first gym, I'm rolling in choices. This isn't even getting into the high EV pokemon you can catch before the second gym. You're right, smart kids are smart. They just go catch the pokemon they want rather than demand it be given to them when they start the game.

Furthermore, by ignoring the side games, you just lose a bunch of credibility. You sound more like someone demanding that the game changes to fit your specific needs rather than a consumer base that is willing to buy these games yearly. The side games are there for people who want something different in their games. They change up the genre and styles of Pokemon. They give Pokemon darker tales for your enjoyment. The market is there, but you want to ignore them because the main ones "actually count."

Oh people who make assumptions in internet debates, will you ever stop making me facepalm. No? Ok then.

I first played pokemon all the way back when it first came out, with Red and Blue. Hey, maybe the reason i want the core series to change is because i have been playing them so fucking long?

For me, pokemon has always been about making friends with cool little monsters and having them fight. As i said in an earlier post, your starter should be a beloved partner throughout your entire adventure. Not some temporary tool you use to get the pokemon you are actually interested in and discard. There are serious restrictions on what pokemon you can catch, especially at the start, so it isn't nearly as simple as you make it out to be. Seriously, what do we lose by opening up starter selection?

The side games are exactly that, side games. Every massive franchise gets second rate spinoffs and pokemon is no exception. The difference with pokemon is that some people seem to think that that makes it okay for the problems in the core series to go unadressed. I don't WANT something radically different. I don't want an entirely new formula. I just want a little variety. I want the formula to be tweaked and followed a little less slavishly.

Man, how dare i offer my opinions on how the Pokemon games should change on a thread about how the pokemon games should change.

You have played Pokemon since Red and Blue? So have I. In fact, I've bought every single Pokemon game that has come out in the United States. I even have the Pocket Pickachu toys. So I can say with confidence that you really have no idea what you're talking about.

You seem to be of the opinion that Pokemon games haven't been changing with every generation. Because you'd realise that in X and Y, they have finally addressed that problem you've been spouting about lack of selection. Before you reach the first gym, you are offered many different types of pokemon to catch. Quite a few of them are good enough to be used till the endgame. This is X and Y's strength, the sheer diversity of Pokemon to catch.

Furthermore, what, exactly, would the point there be of having a larger starter set? The more starter pokemon there are, the more pokemon there are that are exlusive to that single playthough. And if you make all the starter pokemon catchable later, you just lower the "value" of that pokemon. The starters are not found anywhere in the wild because it gives that starter another bond.

Finally, when you offer your opinion on a public anything, you are opening yourself up to critism. When I am critizing your opinion, I'm not saying you can't have it. Just as you are free to criticize my responses.

 

[AntiChri5]

Finally, when you offer your opinion on a public anything, you are opening yourself up to critism. When I am critizing your opinion, I'm not saying you can't have it. Just as you are free to criticize my responses.

Nope, you don't get to hide behind this. You started by groundlessly accusing me of ignorance and continue to do so. You make assumptions about my motives and opinions that there is no basis for and in general spout a lot of baseless bullshit. That isn't how you have a discussion on a subject, it's how you have a silly shitfight.

If you aren't interested in extending me the basic respect required for a mature discussion then please say so now so i will know not to bother.

You have played Pokemon since Red and Blue? So have I. In fact, I've bought every single Pokemon game that has come out in the United States. I even have the Pocket Pickachu toys. So I can say with confidence that you really have no idea what you're talking about.

No, i have a difference of opinion from yours. The two are rather different.

You seem to be of the opinion that Pokemon games haven't been changing with every generation. Because you'd realise that in X and Y, they have finally addressed that problem you've been spouting about lack of selection. Before you reach the first gym, you are offered many different types of pokemon to catch. Quite a few of them are good enough to be used till the endgame. This is X and Y's strength, the sheer diversity of Pokemon to catch.

Yes, they have been changing, but they haven't been changing much. They are too comfortable in their formula. They focus more on adding new pokemon and tossing in a new mechanic or two then addressing core issues.

They haven't adressed the problem. There are still three starters you pick from at the beginning and are restricted to. Yes, X and Y have a much greater range of pokemon available in the early game (and that remains fairly consistent throughout the game), which is a part of the game i have praised loud and often, but i never said otherwise. I said that there have always been serious restrictions on which pokemon you can catch at the start and that holds true. This is a problem they have partially addressed, but it wouldn't have been necessary to do so if we had more starter freedom.

Furthermore, what, exactly, would the point there be of having a larger starter set? The more starter pokemon there are, the more pokemon there are that are exlusive to that single playthough. And if you make all the starter pokemon catchable later, you just lower the "value" of that pokemon. The starters are not found anywhere in the wild because it gives that starter another bond.

I don't care about the "value" of the pokemon. I care about playing with the mons i want. A reasonably large selection of non-OP non legendary pokemon at the beginning would give players much more choice and make the early game much more varied and interesting. I don't think starters should be exclusive to being starters.

I don't even see where you are going with the value argument. Every player will inevitable get one of these three starter pokemon, hell you even get another one of the starters from one of the kids you run around with at the end of X and Y. So there are plenty of these pokemon in circulation, as they are the only inevitable acquisition.

 

[Dragonbums]

...games requiring multi-player, Sim City and Titanfall got a lot of back-lash. Not the exact same situation

So you do understand that both those games don't work as examples because of fundamental differences. Then way do you bring them up?

If anything, you should find an example of a game that has a single player mode that can only be 100% completed through multiple instances of the game in a similar fashion to pokémon's trading system.

Why did you not try to do that? Is it because the best example destroy your argument? Because the best counterpoint to Pokemon I can come up with is World of Warcraft, a MMO.

Both are continuous (WoW being an MMORPG never truly ends, and Pokemon has a "post-game" and all pokemon can be transferred the next instalment) with unclear lines between what's single- and multiplayer (both games has preparations for multiplayer done in single player). But most importantly: Both has communication with other people as a gameplay mechanics. What you are asking for is the equivalent of a to see all the multiplayer content in a 100% single player WoW. It's ridiculous.

This post is just ridiculous.

First of all, so everyone knows, Goliath100 felt the need to PM me saying:

"I'm not referring to a particular game."

Don't care if you had a game in mind, you will still give a named example.

My response was:

Will I? Who the hell do you think you are to issue demands like that?

If anything, you should find an example of a game that has a single player mode that can only be 100% completed through multiple instances of the game in a similar fashion to pokémon's trading system.

Can't imagine a lot of games do that.

If you're just going to keep saying 'Named example' without actually tackling the point, then there's no point talking to you.

However, in the case of games requiring multi-player, Sim City and Titanfall got a lot of back-lash. Not the exact same situation, but shows that gamers generally don't like feeling forced to play multi-player.

P.S. If you want to make demands like that, have the balls to do it in the thread instead of only by PM.

Credit where credit's due: He seems to have at least listened to the last line of the message. Just a shame he decided to take it out of context.

My suggestion for improving pokémon games was essentially along the lines of: Make it possible to complete 100% without requiring other people or a second copy.

My argument for this was that no other game would be able to get away with what pokémon has in regards to requiring multiple copies and, as someone pointed out, attending specific events, just to get 100% completion.

Pokémon is a game about collecting creatures and filling an encyclopedia based on them. So, to complete a Pokémon game 100%, you have to catch 'em all (They should make that the catch phrase or something).

Goliath's only argument against this is 'Give a named example'. Hell, he felt so strongly about this that he decided to PM me demanding that I provide a named example.

My response was to challenge him to find a game that requires multi-player to 100% complete a single player aspect.

I then went on to provide examples of games that forced multi-player which pissed a lot of people off. This is the part he took out of context - Notice the sentence is "However, in the case of games requiring multi-player, Sim City and Titanfall got a lot of back-lash."
Goliath misquoted this to make out like I was comparing Sim City and Titanfall to Pokémon, when in actual fact my point is that gamers hate being forced in to multi-player.

Now that the readers of this thread are up-to-date with the information, let's tackle the post:

First of all, Goliath, you questioned why I brought up those 2 games as they are fundamentally different to Pokémon and then went and directly compared it to World of Warcraft. Let me just say, that takes guts, that really does.

In no way are Pokémon and World of Warcraft comparable. Sure, they're both RPGs, but they are so different you should be ashamed of yourself for even using that argument.

All I'm going to say on this one is that WoW is a multi-player focused game, so you'd expect to need other players to progress as much as possible. Pokémon is a single player game that has a couple (Trading and battling) of multi-player aspects as extra features. This completely invalidates your argument, and if you can't see why then try re-reading it.

I'm going to reiterate what I said in the PM: Find another game that requires multi-player aspects to complete 100% that didn't get any backlash at all and is also a popular game. Just to make it easier for you, I'm not going to class achievements as required to 100% complete a game, as achievements are more like a meta game.

AntiChri5 has provided a useful named example for me, which I have quoted below. Maybe now you'll stop demanding I name a game. (If you come out with 'But you didn't name that game someone else did' then there's no point trying to have a rational argument with you)

It's already happened. Mass Effect 3 required that you play the multiplayer in order to get one of the endings for singlelayer. MASSIVE hate backlash. They ended up having to undo it in a patch.

I can't help but wonder though: Why are you defending pokémon so rabidly? Do you really think it's a good game design decision to require multi-player like this?
Or did you once catch all the pokémon and hate the idea of it being made easier for people in future?

I mean, it's a terrible game design choice making it near impossible for the vast majority of people to finish the pokédex legitimately with just 1 copy of the game.

I mean, it's bad enough that Nintendo get away with making 3 versions of the same game with slight variations each generation, but it's becoming worse all the time as you require more of the games to be able to complete the pokédex each time; These days you require past generations to get a lot of pokémon to the most recent generation.

How many game franchises are there out there that not only require access (Whether through buying yourself or using another person) to another version of it in order to 100% complete a single player aspect? That's not rhetorical, I want you to find out, since you're defending pokémon for doing it: How many other games do it?

Not only that, but how many other games require previous versions to 100% complete the current version? Once again this is a serious question.

Except for the fact that it is so fucking easy to get all the Pokemon for 100% completion that it is totally a non issue. Seriously. All you need to do is find someone with a different version and you basically got all the exclusives for your game. If not that, then go on a forum or do Wonder Trade. It's not that difficult.


Also as a sidenote, unless you were given permission it's frowned upon to post quoted private PM's that other users sent you. You can paraphrase it and summarize it. But it's considered good etiquette to not go around posting exactly what they said in a private message. It's majorly rude.

 

[Dragonbums]

IV Breeding made easier. I think that IVs should be determined by personality matches of the parent Pokemon rather than the parent's stats. If the Parent Pokemon are highly compatible, then the stats of the child increase, but if they're not that compatible, then the stats decrease. This way the information can be displayed clearly and all the hidden IV value nonsense would be flushed down the drain. It'd make breeding Pokemon so much easier and so much less confusing and tedious.

As someone who does competitive battling this would be a nightmare. IV mechanics as they are should be left just as they are. I don't want to have to fuss over even more stupid shit like "This nature will only give you X IV's" I don't want that. I really fucking don't. They made IV training SO EASY this generation. So so so much easier and a lot more accessible. Before only the most insanely dedicated even bothered with that shit. Now anyone with enough patience can do it.

Damage modifiers or Pokemon types displayed in battle. I've played the Pokemon games A LOT, but even now it sometimes takes me a minute or two to remember what types some Pokemon are. Some of them just aren't clear. For example, Scraggy. I know he's Dark type, but I also know he's dual typing, and can't remember what his second type is. And how is someone who isn't experienced at Pokemon ever supposed to know he's dark type?

Then you just have to learn it. That's basically half the metagame. It becomes less about what typing a Pokemon is and a lot more about what move sets they carry, and I don't think anyone would agree to allowing the opponent to see your moves and abilities. Also Scrafty is a Dark/Fighting type Pokemon.

 

[frobalt]

Except for the fact that it is so fucking easy to get all the Pokemon for 100% completion that it is totally a non issue. Seriously. All you need to do is find someone with a different version and you basically got all the exclusives for your game. If not that, then go on a forum or do Wonder Trade. It's not that difficult.


Also as a sidenote, unless you were given permission it's frowned upon to post quoted private PM's that other users sent you. You can paraphrase it and summarize it. But it's considered good etiquette to not go around posting exactly what they said in a private message. It's majorly rude.

I don't think you understand my point. Whether it's 'easy' or not to get other people to help is irrelevant, you shouldn't have to get help off other people in the first place.

Also, you're saying wonder trade is a good way to get all pokémon? I've not played X and Y, but from what I've heard of wonder trade, people put up rubbish pokémon more often than not, and even if they didn't, what you get back from it is about as random as you can get. So not really a valid strategy to complete the game, and if it is, then that shows how terrible the game design is.



Given the fact that Goliath quoted part of what I PMed him, it seemed only fitting to reveal the entire conversation.

 

[GamemasterAnthony]

*snerk* Okay...how about this for a special format?

Choose any three Pokémon...all three now have the Moody ability and can only use the attack Metronome.

Chaos the likes of which would make Discord proud. Feel free to add in anything to make it more chaotic.

 

[frobalt]

Except for the fact that it is so fucking easy to get all the Pokemon for 100% completion that it is totally a non issue. Seriously. All you need to do is find someone with a different version and you basically got all the exclusives for your game. If not that, then go on a forum or do Wonder Trade. It's not that difficult.


Also as a sidenote, unless you were given permission it's frowned upon to post quoted private PM's that other users sent you. You can paraphrase it and summarize it. But it's considered good etiquette to not go around posting exactly what they said in a private message. It's majorly rude.

I don't think you understand my point. Whether it's 'easy' or not to get other people to help is irrelevant, you shouldn't have to get help off other people in the first place.

Also, you're saying wonder trade is a good way to get all pokémon? I've not played X and Y, but from what I've heard of wonder trade, people put up rubbish pokémon more often than not, and even if they didn't, what you get back from it is about as random as you can get. So not really a valid strategy to complete the game, and if it is, then that shows how terrible the game design is.



Given the fact that Goliath quoted part of what I PMed him, it seemed only fitting to reveal the entire conversation.

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Pokemon Red, Blue and Green were literally DESIGNED so that you relied on other people to get all of the Pokedex. If you don't like the fact that you need people to help you get all the Pokemon, then seriously, don't play the game, it isn't for you.

And Wonder Trade is amazing. I've received a lot of perfect IV Pokemon, hidden ability Pokemon and a lot of Pokemon not available in the Kalos region. In fact, it's only occasionally I've received an exceptionally common Pokemon. People even trade legendaries and shinies over the Wondertrade.

I don't play the game. Haven't since gen 4. What you don't understand is that I'm saying that removing the need for multiple games would make the series better.

As for wonder trade, I never said it was a bad feature, just that it isn't reliable as a means of completing the pokédex.

 

[frobalt]

I don't play the game. Haven't since gen 4. What you don't understand is that I'm saying that removing the need for multiple games would make the series better.

As for wonder trade, I never said it was a bad feature, just that it isn't reliable as a means of completing the pokédex.

It's not supposed to be reliable.

You see, the Pokemon games expect you to go outside and talk to people.

That's not really an argument against my point that making the pokémon games standalone would improve them. You're just making a statement and not actually backing it up with anything.

You're also wrong in your statement, as it's possible to trade with people using the internet, so you never have to 'go outside and talk to people' to complete it.

 

[agent9]

I would keep most of the formula the same since the strategy aspect is really tied into that formula.

bring back contests and the art gallery (if you win a master contest your pokemon gets it's picture in the museum.

make HM's either more fluid or obsolete.

bring back secret bases and allow players to store their friends secret base in their world like the old games did

Bring back the battle frontier with it's many varied form of battle rather than the new and simple single,double,triple, and rotation format we've been getting for the longest.

Scale the elite four so that you can get decent experience when training a pokemon

Keep super training

Bring back the pokeathlon because it was a cool break in between all that fighting.

Include legendaries new and old for "quests" of sorts like RSE did with their legendaries.

more varied environments with items or large scale HM based areas (like diving spots, the desert in RSE, and the acro bike in RSE). it was interesting to explore all those places.

and hopefully one day, a free battle mode like pokemon rumble has, were I can avoid an attack on my own volition and attack multiple times (almost like a pokemon battle in the anime).

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

It seems that some of you reeaally need to try your hands at the Pokemon metagame.

I've heard of it, sounds like a way of complicating the game for no real reason.

 

[go-10]

-copy Ni No Kuni battle system and artistic style

-get rid of random battles and make Pokemon visible on the overworld, if you want to battle/catch them. You have to touch them and you'll enter a battle against them. If Dragon Quest did this on DS there's no reason why a more powerful system shouldn't be able to do the same

-add a secondary tournament that you can do optionally. Same deal as the main story, 8 gyms and an elite 4, just that it's not tied to the story nor does it do anything other than offer an additional challenge.

-give the player more options. If you want to be a Team Rocket grunt that on a road to redemption let me be that. Also incorporate the other hero (boy.girl trainer) like in X/Y

-give each Pokemon it's own call. Pikachu says his name make them all do their signature cry instead of random noise

 

[Verlander]

You should be able to catch 'em all in a single game.

But that would defeat the purpose in trading. Which is what the whole purpose of the games was crafted to do.

Yeah this guy's got a point, Pokemon is a game about connecting with people and this basically makes that moot.

I disagree completely with your statements.

1. Pokémon isn't a game about trading animals you catch around the world, it's about training those animals up and collecting them. Basically: Trading is not the sole purpose of these games.

2. Trading would still be useful if you could catch them all, as there would likely be constraints on catching certain Pokémon that would push people to trade simply to make things easier.


Making trading mandatory to catch them all just puts an arbitrary restriction on completing the game, and also ensures you can't complete it yourself, which you should be able to do in a solo game; After all, could you imagine the outrage if another game required you to use a multi-player aspect to complete the single player part 100%?

Agreed, I've never traded with it. I hate the idea of trading, always rubbed me the wrong way. However I enjoy the games, so would like the option of collecting them all in a single game somehow

 

[Dragonbums]

It seems that some of you reeaally need to try your hands at the Pokemon metagame.

I've heard of it, sounds like a way of complicating the game for no real reason.

Not really. It's an easy to play hard to master type of game. Different Pokemon have different strategies and ways of playing.

It's no more complicated than a MOBA game.

 

[frobalt]

No, my argument is the only valid point. The only reason Pokemon exists is because Gamefreak wanted a game that would make children connect with each other. It's literally the friendship game for schools, it's a common interest for kids, they trade with others on the playground and even battle each other. The foundation of Pokemon's design is that it requires multiple people to 'complete'.

You should really back up such outrageous claims with a source. I highly doubt the game was initially created the way it was to get school children to socialise.

And you're wrong about only using the internet. If you want to complete the Pokedex, it's a million times easier with friends. If you want to try and organize around 800 separate trades with separate people, then be my guest. Also, you can't acquire all Pokemon using the GTS feature of the game. Most legendaries aren't tradeable in that part of the game, and a lot of unacquired Pokemon won't appear in your version of the GTS for you to get.
I've spent enough time playing Pokemon to have experience and know what is and isn't required to complete the pokedex. You on the other hand have hardly played it, and you're just going off the odd thing which someone might have told you.

What's your point on this one? You're not even disagreeing with me.

My suggestion for improvement is that it should be possible to complete the pokédex without needing other people. You're just arguing that this is the case and always has been the case.

My suggestion isn't to remove trading, it's to stop trading being mandatory.

Doesn't take 100s of hours of playing to know that trading is mandatory to complete the pokédex, and that's just knowing about version exclusives and pokémon that only evolve when traded, which has been around since gen 1.

 

[Dragonbums]

Also, my suggestion for IV breeding is the easiest possible solution for IV breeding, so much so that it'd make it possible for kids to breed their Pokemon. I never said make it nature based, only to make it based on a real breeding system, maybe with a classic heart indicator to show how much the Pokemon like each other. That kind of breeding system has been put into many games and has always been very simple and easy to read.

That's easier for kids to understand, but a fuck ton more work than I want to put into it. I don't want to maximize the happiness and love of my Pokemon to breed a good set of IV's. I do this on a daily basis. That is fucking annoying and a total nuisance. I don't want it. I really don't want to have to put in that extra fucking step just to get good IV's. That does not make things easier. That's just bullshit extra steps I have to go through instead of just slapping them in the daycare and letting them have their rompfest.

And IV breeding isn't easy in this generation, it's just fuck less confusing as to what it used to be. You can breed the perfect Pokemon much easier now, but it still requires you to farm a LOT of eggs.

OOoooooh yeah it is fucking easier. It is a lot more easier to do IV breeding this gen. You clearly haven't done it in the past because doing it in previous generations was a fucking nightmare.

Destiny Knot allowing the transfer of 5 out of 6 of both parents IV's as opposed to the usual 3 was the greatest fucking thing Gamefreak ever did in terms of breeding mechanics for IV's. You thought this required a lot of eggs? Go back to 5th gen and try doing that and see how many eggs you procure before you even get 4 IV's. It's a damn nightmare.

"If the pokemon are compatible, all stats should rise"

And which Pokemon are compatible with what? That's going to break and centralize the metagame so hard. It's also YET EVEN MORE STEPS to breeding than even necessary.

It's very clear that you don't actually IV/EV train Pokemon for competitive battling because none of what you suggested is even remotely convenient for the average metagame player. It's just more steps than necessary.

 

[suntt123]

OOoooooh yeah it is fucking easier. It is a lot more easier to do IV breeding this gen. You clearly haven't done it in the past because doing it in previous generations was a fucking nightmare.

Destiny Knot allowing the transfer of 5 out of 6 of both parents IV's as opposed to the usual 3 was the greatest fucking thing Gamefreak ever did in terms of breeding mechanics for IV's. You thought this required a lot of eggs? Go back to 5th gen and try doing that and see how many eggs you procure before you even get 4 IV's. It's a damn nightmare.

Not to mention that the friend safari, while extremely lacking in the whole 'safari' aspect, gives pokemon that have guaranteed 2 or more perfect IVs for breeding. Plus, the Oval Charm that DOUBLES your chances to get eggs from the day care and the fact that Hatching Power LV3 makes eggs hatch 2x Faster... and stacks with Flame Body. FOUR. TIMES. FASTER. Where have these been all my life?

I also LOVE the fact that the move relearner can now make pokemon relearn egg moves and (I think) event exclusive moves after they're forgotten.

OT:
If I had to make any improvements to the mechanics, it would be to allow us to have the friendship/IV checker and move relearner/forgetter/tutors on a f**king phone. They let us do that with the friendship/IV checker in B2/W2, but took it out for some dumb reason. Also, have the IV checker give us an actual number and bring back the difficulty settings. WHY WERE THESE REMOVED?