Humanity lost in a cloud of hate and anger?

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Housebroken Lunatic

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Saviordd1 said:
Honestly, unless you murder people, you aren't that bad. I know you love to see yourself as some hate filled bad ass but honestly I'm not impressed
You don't know anything about what I love or not. Especially not something like that.

Hatefilled I may be, but I hardly consider it to make me "bad ass". I just see it as being human (remember what I said about hate and anger being the very things that defines "humanity"?).

Considering myself to be "bad ass" because im filled with hatred would be like seeing myself as being "bad ass" because I have to take a leak after drinking beer, or that I sneeze when im having a cold.

Hatred is just a part of the "human experience" so to speak. It's just that some of us have more of it than others.

I don't really care if that makes you impressed or not, that's just how it is...
 

Evill_Bob

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Two thousand years ago a guy got nailed to a cross for saying how great it would be if we'd all be nice to each other for a change. There was just an unusual ammount of people not trying to be a greedy dick to each other for a bit. There was an attempt at the betterment of humanity with space exploration, medical breakthroughs, and general awesomeness around the board. Apparently people act nice when they know any moment the entire world could be vaporized in a moment by thermonuclear warfare.
 

Indeterminacy

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Saviordd1 said:
And I was thinking, what happened to that sort of thinking?
I have by and large ignored the values part of your post. I don't know whether human kindness as an idea in and of itself is somehow absent in the world today, and I suspect that it lies only in the hearts of those who are prepared to be outcasts of society for the sake of others even less fortunate than themselves.

But what I can address is what happened to "this sort" of thinking. Allow me to place the Chaplin quote in some context. This speech was given in 1940, when war was perceived as a thing borne of those with a thirst for power, where the death of soldiers was understood as a result of stupidity on the part of generals, where conflict was perceived in the terms it always had been at that point. Germany's persecution of the Jews was understood by the west as an abhorrent economic strategy that Nazism adopted only because they needed to steal their wealth. National Socialism was a kind of Socialism to the West.

They didn't yet realise that the Nazi goal was ethnic cleansing. They didn't realise the power that lay behind a group of people, brought together by notions of unity and social values - the power to slaughter at least six million people for the sake of a collective ideology. Resisting dictatorship by appeal to peoples' better sense of humanity? The sense of a better, developed and brighter future for humanity that was inherent in the Nazi ideal was one with the master race at the top of it.

This is the lesson we learned from World War 2, plus to a very real extent nuclear weaponry as well, and that had not yet been learned as of Chaplin's speech above. You do not fix the world by claiming that the best in human nature will result in a better future and striving to create that future. Looking to emphasise the "Best" in human nature will bring out the worst of it. And that hypothesis has been experimentally verified at a disastrous cost.

It is not surprising that the cold war happened after that shocking realisation. It's not surprising that nihilism seems to thrive, and that our individualist political and economic theories and existentialist personal philosophies have become dogma. We have seen the extent of our power and we realise that we are not ourselves to be trusted with that power. Human Kindness can directly cause evil to flourish when our societies are themselves vulnerable to corruption. The prevailing attitude now is that people should have as little power as possible, such that they can do no wrong with it. This includes dictators and senators, media barons and CEOs every bit as much as the common man, and it is why Democracy is perceived as the only worthwhile system of governance we have established to date.
 

ediblemitten

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Saviordd1 said:
Housebroken Lunatic said:
This might be news to some of you but mankind as a species is a rather hate-filled and angry species.

So how exactly could humanity "get lost" in something that pretty much defines it?

When are you ever going to realize the fact that this lovey-dovey "humanity is really good deep inside" bullshit is just pink-misted idealism and not representative of what humanity really is?

I'll put it in simple terms for you so that you might understand:

"mankind is really good" = Idealism, i.e what most people WANT to be true.

Mankind is hate-filled and angry = Reality, i.e what's actually going on.

Get it?
Is it though? Even in the worst people I know I've seen good, I've seen them defy the very evil they say they are. Humanity isn't "Really good" Its flawed, but its good at the same time.

ediblemitten said:
Honestly, these threads are getting tired very quickly. People have always have been angry and dramatic. There have always been savage, terrible people, there has always been war, there has always been hate, killing and, ahem, 'drama'. Actually, we've improved markedly as a race in my opinion. Look up the Thirty Years War, the great dick-swinging, aristocratic's-last-breath, slaughterfest that was world war I, maybe the Mongol conquests, or have a look at the Taiping rebellion, and them come back and tell me WE'RE hateful and angry.
We are, we're also ignorant to the world, how many people suffer to make your clothes because they work on less then minimum wage? How many people die in africa and we just don't care? How many people suffer in poverty in our own cities and we give them a few dimes and call it our good deed? We've gone backward, we just disguise it with the media.
So vast increases in life expectancy, almost all across the world, is a bad thing? Great leaps in technology? Treaties drafted that recognize universal human rights? Increased openness and trade? The eradication of deadly diseases, like smallpox and polio? The abolition of slavery, the breaking up of colonial empires, the numerous laws drafted giving women the right to vote, are all bad? So we should all go back to the hunk-dory, good old days when honest farmers tilled the land and fed their families, with home grown natural food, and there were no cars or pollution, and hardworking folk lived in quaint, cute villages, co-existing in peace and harmony with their fellow man, singing songs and dancing under rainbows, right?

Those in the first world cannot even fathom how good they've got it nowadays.
 

spartan231490

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give it a few years. You'll understand.
jk jk
I doubt things are any difference. You can find one video from the "old days" that supports kindness ect. i can find one video from now that shows the same thing. one video doesn't mean much.
 

crop52

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Oh look, a typical teenager on the internet.

Humanity has always been this way. Just ask Rockstar Games.
 

Saviordd1

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ediblemitten said:
Saviordd1 said:
Housebroken Lunatic said:
This might be news to some of you but mankind as a species is a rather hate-filled and angry species.

So how exactly could humanity "get lost" in something that pretty much defines it?

When are you ever going to realize the fact that this lovey-dovey "humanity is really good deep inside" bullshit is just pink-misted idealism and not representative of what humanity really is?

I'll put it in simple terms for you so that you might understand:

"mankind is really good" = Idealism, i.e what most people WANT to be true.

Mankind is hate-filled and angry = Reality, i.e what's actually going on.

Get it?
Is it though? Even in the worst people I know I've seen good, I've seen them defy the very evil they say they are. Humanity isn't "Really good" Its flawed, but its good at the same time.

ediblemitten said:
Honestly, these threads are getting tired very quickly. People have always have been angry and dramatic. There have always been savage, terrible people, there has always been war, there has always been hate, killing and, ahem, 'drama'. Actually, we've improved markedly as a race in my opinion. Look up the Thirty Years War, the great dick-swinging, aristocratic's-last-breath, slaughterfest that was world war I, maybe the Mongol conquests, or have a look at the Taiping rebellion, and them come back and tell me WE'RE hateful and angry.
We are, we're also ignorant to the world, how many people suffer to make your clothes because they work on less then minimum wage? How many people die in africa and we just don't care? How many people suffer in poverty in our own cities and we give them a few dimes and call it our good deed? We've gone backward, we just disguise it with the media.
So vast increases in life expectancy, almost all across the world, is a bad thing? Great leaps in technology? Treaties drafted that recognize universal human rights? Increased openness and trade? The eradication of deadly diseases, like smallpox and polio? The abolition of slavery, the breaking up of colonial empires, the numerous laws drafted giving women the right to vote, are all bad? So we should all go back to the hunk-dory, good old days when honest farmers tilled the land and fed their families, with home grown natural food, and there were no cars or pollution, and hardworking folk lived in quaint, cute villages, co-existing in peace and harmony with their fellow man, singing songs and dancing under rainbows, right?

Those in the first world cannot even fathom how good they've got it nowadays.
Yet for every single thing you mentioned there has been a negative or that has simply been ignored.

Are human rights followed in third world nations? Do all women all across the world have the vote? How much has that technology corrupted us?

Of course not everything is bad, but its not all good either. All in all I consider myself a trans-humanist but I see that the world has taken what it has been given and simply ignored it.

What I'm saying is that humanity has far to go and so much more work to do, and that people seem to be forgetting that.
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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Sleekit said:
every single human being gets up every single day and trys to "better themselves" and/or likewise those they care about.

we may not agree with they methods they undertake or their reasoning but ultimately every single one does this every single day.

whether its a "professional criminal" or a "good cop", a "brave solider" or a "terrorist", a "hard working family man" or a "welfare cheat", a "right wing politician" or a "left wing politician" and even someone working in a sweatshop or living a life of backbreaking toil living off the land.

eve.ry.one.

the underlying aim of every action undertaken or avoided is always, in essence, the same.

to advance. to do that which that person thinks would make things "better".
whether in a personal sense or in collectivist sense or in a more esoteric sense.

have a long hard think about that fact sometime.
because the simple truth of that is undeniable.

"primal" "hate" and "anger" are not what drives humanity at all.
Correction: everyone is trying to improve things FOR THEMSELVES. And their hate and anger drives them to do just this, but at the cost of others.

So hate and anger DO drive humanity. Your little trivial opinion about it is irrelevant.

Even biological science supports my stance. Check up on "the selfish gene" and you'll see for your self.
 

Adam28

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
Correction: everyone is trying to improve things FOR THEMSELVES. And their hate and anger drives them to do just this, but at the cost of others.

So hate and anger DO drive humanity. Your little trivial opinion about it is irrelevant.

Even biological science supports my stance. Check up on "the selfish gene" and you'll see for your self.
No it doesn't, you came up with this anger and hate motivation idea yourself. Even if it is for themselves, this is not always driven by anger and hate.

OT: Ugh, the negativity of some people on this site....
 

SnakeoilSage

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We're all creatures of conflicting natures, and we likely always will be. That's the truth about existence; it is never absolute. We resist, we give in, we compromise, every day. We cannot choose one, can't live our lives focused on a single choice, because our three options will destroy us if we chose only one, and only that one, or if we choose not to choose at all.

History demands a toll in blood; ours, their's, or those yet to come. We cannot pass from one age to the next without making that choice, without deciding to resist, to give in, or to compromise. No age in history has progressed without making that choice, no point in history has been so much more important than our own, no matter how primitive those who came before us may have seemed; they had to make the same choices we do, and those choices are timeless, existing in a state that goes beyond progress.

I guess what I mean is, the world can seem teetering on the brink. But then it always has to the perspective of those living in troubled times. And we've made it so far. We've created as much as we've destroyed. We've learned as much as we've lost. So far we have made the choices that, while not always perfect, make a step in the right direction. We fix what we can, learn from our mistakes, and carry these things with us so the next choice can be made with greater understanding. It will never be easy to choose, but we do the best we can.

And I know this, because we're still here. We're still dreaming. And we still bury our dead.
 

Crazy

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People tortured and killed others because they didn't believe in what everyone else believed. You don't see that happening around the world today now do you? And people today are not the barbarians people were in the past.
 

Panzer_God

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sravankb said:
There's literally just one person (that I can think of) who can constantly rant or complain and still be entertaining - David Mitchell. Not everyone (in fact, pretty much nobody) has that talent. When an average person attempts this sort of humor, it just comes off as raw hatred and anger, without any semblance of wit or intelligence, or most importantly, anything interesting.
Not everyone doing that is attempting humor. I hate on things for one very simple reason, because I hate them. I don't try to be funny, I am expressing legitimate displeasure in an overly vocal and excitable fashion.

Princess Molestia said:
People tortured and killed others because they didn't believe in what everyone else believed. You don't see that happening around the world today now do you? And people today are not the barbarians people were in the past.
Yes, I do, and yes, we are. Humanity as a whole are vicious, stupid barbarians.
 

Housebroken Lunatic

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Sleekit said:
care to explain how "hate" and "anger" equates, in any way, with "selfishness" ?

because quite simply as far as i can see it doesn't other than the fact you are asserting it does.

people don't work day after day to better themselves and the situations of those they care about because they motivated by "hate" or are "anger".

you simply making an statement to try and prove a point and hoping people will blindly nod acceptingly along with it.

and PS the selfish gene has much to say on the biological nature of altruism and how it relates to "selfishness". i suggest you read the book again...if you even have in the first place...
It's a simple mathematical equation really. What usually happens when you put one selfish person with another selfish person, and their selfish goals somehow conflict (like they always do).

It harks back to the old addage that if you put two people on a deserted island, then one will try to lord over and oppress the other.

The motivations and methods might vary at first, but it always leads to hate and anger in the end. That's why these are the only true motivations to the human condition. Hate/anger has driven people to do some of the greatest acts in history. You might frown upon how genocide and war lead to peoples death and how this conflicts with your lovey-dovey idealism that you fill your heads with because of the pleasant feelings you get from it, but there's no denying that hate and anger make people move entire mountains and destroy entire civilizations.

Hatred of others and of our surroundings trying to keep us down is what made us survive. Without hatred, our ancestors would've just curdled up in a little ball and died at the hands of a cruel and violent nature.
 

Indeterminacy

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Housebroken Lunatic said:
Hatred of others and of our surroundings trying to keep us down is what made us survive. Without hatred, our ancestors would've just curdled up in a little ball and died at the hands of a cruel and violent nature.
If you'd said "fear" I'd have supported you here. But hatred isn't just one's predisposition towards something to fight it or run away from it. Hate is a state of extreme emotional response to something; where one makes the removal of or from the subject an active personal ambition. It's a very abstract concept in comparison with something like survival or mutual self-interest.

Why should it be obvious that hostile personal ambition is central to survival? One would assume that unless one already existed in an environment of empathy, individuals who hated would be quickly isolated from the group with a more immediate goal of strategising for food, shelter and defense.