Hypocrisy, thy name be Wal*Mart (Selling ex-gay kid's book)

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TheOtherDaniel

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Teppe said:
Sadly a country can be as accepting to homosexuality as it wants, it doesn't take more than a bullying minority to push someone to suicide, especially these days with Facebook, Myspace and whatever flavor-of-the-month social community where access to the victim is a lot easier.
At present then there are no statistics that we can refer to where bullying of homosexuals does not occur, which is tragic. Bullying is evil, whatever the reason, even if you don't agree with the way of life of people. A friend of mine in uni, who was (and still is) a lesbian, really struggled with me, as a Christian, as I considered her lifestyle, and in her mind her identity, sinful, but I still treated her better than a lot of people she knew, particularly those who were fueled by ignorance more than anything else. I'd like to see what the outcomes are for homosexuals in cultures where they aren't bullied but, frankly, I don't think I'm going to see that this side of Heaven.

The current tactic of the homosexual lobby, however, has been consistently to portray themselves as victims - one needs only to refer to After the Ball by Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen, who urge homosexuals to cast themselves as victims to engender sympathy. And it's a tactic that has worked well so far, so much so, that Christian groups are not allowed to disagree with the homosexual lifestyle and are penalised by the government by doing so. Some examples:
http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/church-camp-found-guilty-of-discrimination-20101009-16d3f.html
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/07/09/university-illinois-instructor-fired-catholic-beliefs/
The second one is particularly concerning as the professor was fired because he was teaching accurately what Catholic doctrine is.
triggrhappy94 said:
Aren't crazy church people SO funny. That's why I always answer the door to them.
Don't they understand the seperation between church and state
Apparently, you don't either. The separation of church and state is to protect people's beliefs and their right to practice them, not the state.
 

Agrael

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Capslockbroken said:
Agrael said:
Hi, I am from Europe, you know, the country that isn't run by christianity.

Why can't you guys get it through your thick skulls, that you are BORN homosexual, not that you BECOME one ?

It is in the animal kingdom, and it is in humankind.

Get over it.
I could try to explain to you that there is no scientific evidence either for or against the idea that people are born gay, but someone who thinks Europe is a country probably wouldn't understand.
I just noticed that typo myself... continent... but, the EU is basically going to be one huge country anyway...

Please do explain.
 

TheOtherDaniel

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ShadowsofHope said:
Yes, and tend to make claims on such that have no evidences to them whatsoever either way. (heterosexual relationships better than either same sex or single parent)
An interesting admission, considering that quite a number of legislative changes have been made based on studies, which have been poorly done, in ways that a junior researcher can spot; poorly matched control groups, poor follow up, poor statistical analysis. A breakdown of these studies used, and their flaws, can be found in this article,
http://www.marriagewatch.org/publications/nobasis.pdf
The article can be summarised in the following paragraph from the conclusion:
"The answer to the question of how the media has portrayed same-sex parenting studies can be summed up in the following terms: an overwhelming majority (85 percent)of the articles have an overall tone suggesting, and often stating, that the results of these studies are beyond criticism. Only a small minority (15 percent) suggests that the studies could be flawed. Not only do most of the articles present only one viewpoint, the majority of them (74 percent) do so with broad generalizations, rarely referring to any specific studies. Of those articles that do cite a particular study (26 percent), almost a third follow it with a general claim that all other studies are in agreement. Further, these articles were most often written simply to discuss gay and lesbian issues and used the studies as evidence that gay and lesbian families are the same as heterosexual families. It is ironic that a media that prides itself on its critical acumen would treat same-sex parenting studies with such extraordinary deference. We leave the reader to speculate as to why this is the case."

An agenda to push perhaps? Heaven forbid.

ShadowsofHope said:
To your interpretation, yes. This is all just interpretation until anything conclusive is made, yes.
That's how evidence works. You can never be 100% sure, and there's no such thing in science as a "digital" conclusion, reflected in the statistical concept of probability of being statistically significant.
ShadowsofHope said:
http://sites.google.com/site/taoismnet/home/articles/homosexuality-as-seen-through-the-tao

And alternative religious view on it, not anti-Christian at all. (Infact, it makes reference to Jesus in a positive light at the bottom)
Nice, but a misrepresentation of Jesus. Jesus preached more on judgement and hell than any of the Old Testament prophets, and preached a Gospel which was Good News to sinners, but it was not permissive and not accepting of other "points of view."
"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."-Jesus, in John 14:6
"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." - Jesus, in Luke 12:5

Jesus was loving, yes, but not permissive. If this doesn't fit with your picture of "gentle Jesus, meek and mild" then you have a picture of Jesus that has nothing to do with how he describes himself.

ShadowsofHope said:
http://www.skeptictank.org/gaygene.htm

Not an anti-Christian site, simply scientific data and explanation.
And even in that discussion, makes the ineresting observation that environment can change behaviour ("straight" fruit flies acting "gay" in the given circumstances). And it's a whole can of worms there - the white-eye gene is a gene that codes for a lack of pigment, and is considered a loss of information (a deleterious mutation). And this gene is associated with homosexual behaviour? The article rightly goes on to highlight the risk that, as our understanding of the human genome increases, what happens if the gene is found, and present in more than the gay population? I might carry the gene. What then? What if people decide to have gene therapy to remove the gene, or stop it from expressing, and homosexuality becomes a "disease", like Rogue seeking treatment in the X-men movies because she wanted a "normal" life. The outlook is Orwellian, that's for sure. In truth, as is discussed in one of those links, there is a range of population who are always straight, who are always gay, and there are some who flip flop. The gene will probably make you more likely to be homosexual, but environmental factors will almost certainly be triggers. And, yes, this is speculation, but it is a theory that allows for those individuals who do seek healing in this area of their lives, and achieve it, rare as those cases may be. The analogy, although people won't like it, is that if there is a gene for agression or addictive personality, that doesn't excuse the person from punching random strangers (or non-random homosexuals) or developing a cocaine addiction. We are still responsible for our actions and will be held to account.
 

TheYellowCellPhone

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Terminate421 said:
Parents want their children to be perfect, if they screw up, they'll blame ANYTHING. Even their own pet who they had BEFORE the kid.
No, no, they won't blame anything, they'll blame anything but themselves.

It's religious views, and this really should be posted in Religion & Politics... but not as many people would've seen it.
 

TheOtherDaniel

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Well, we've certainly come a long way in this thread. Hmm, what was the original point? OK, there are people who believe that homosexuality is something that is wrong, and they're entitled to that opinion. They're not entitled to bully people, or commit hate crimes, but thinking that someone is wrong or that you disagree with them is not a hate crime. It's not Christian to bully, but it's not like Christ to assure people that what you're doing is OK when it's not. And it is Christian to pray for those who are sinners (which includes all of us anyway)

Wal-Mart is actually being consistent with their outlook if they're selling this book, and they're owned by Christians. I only hear about Walmart in random posts, and we have nothing similar here, but apparently they're a really, really big department store. If you don't agree with them, boycott the store, or protest against them if you feel it's important. It's your right. What they're doing is not illegal, or hypocritical, however, regardless of how offensive you may find the idea. But the book is written from the experience of one family, and if you're thinking a book burning might be in order, then perhaps you'd prefer to move to a country where the gagging of ideas is actively encouraged, a there's a lot of them. It is the price of freedom and democracy, unfortunately, but it seems to be worth, compared to more totalitarian regimes around the world.
 

TheLaofKazi

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Terminate421 said:
Question:

Is it normal to experiment with different kinds of Internet porn in high school? I did that for a while until I found out im just a normal straight guy. But I caught my self fapping to the wrong stuff a few times (Like 5 times)

Am I okay or was that just harmless experimentation?
That's perfectly fine, possibly even healthy. Obviously knowing your own sexuality is going to help out in relationships, you will be able to more easily communicate to your partner, so you both know how each other tick sexually. Or more importantly, you will be able to choose the right gender :D. I think there are some people out there that simply assume they are straight because of how their environment fashioned them. That's pretty obviously with the many staunchly anti-gay, conservative people out there that later got caught committing homosexual acts with male prostitutes, or in gay extramarital relationships. They were raised in an environment that basically said that you must be straight, and homosexual thoughts or acts were sinful, a mental disease, almost like one would resist the urge to act violently when really angry at someone. They want to do it, but know/think it's wrong, so they refrain.
 

psychowatcher

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May 5, 2009
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-facepalm- It's things like this that make me wonder if the world would be better off if it just exploded in two years.
 

Blind Sight

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Um...it's a business. They're free to sell whatever products they deem viable, even if they offend you.

Then again, I'm one of those freedom nuts who wouldn't even care if Walmart sold swastika merchandise, so maybe I'm a little biased.
 

ShadowsofHope

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Nov 1, 2009
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TheOtherDaniel said:
A breakdown of these studies used, and their flaws, can be found in this article,
http://www.marriagewatch.org/publications/nobasis.pdf
The site won't load for me, it seems. So..


TheOtherDaniel said:
The article can be summarised in the following paragraph from the conclusion.. *paraphrase snip* ..An agenda to push perhaps? Heaven forbid.
I won't deny there is some sort of agenda in the process, but then again.. whom doesn't have the smallest hint of one in everything?


TheOtherDaniel said:
That's how evidence works. You can never be 100% sure, and there's no such thing in science as a "digital" conclusion, reflected in the statistical concept of probability of being statistically significant.
I don't disagree with this, as it is the truth. I know.

TheOtherDaniel said:
Nice, but a misrepresentation of Jesus. Jesus preached more on judgement and hell than any of the Old Testament prophets, and preached a Gospel which was Good News to sinners, but it was not permissive and not accepting of other "points of view."
"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."-Jesus, in John 14:6
"But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him." - Jesus, in Luke 12:5

Jesus was loving, yes, but not permissive. If this doesn't fit with your picture of "gentle Jesus, meek and mild" then you have a picture of Jesus that has nothing to do with how he describes himself.
I'm not a Christian, so I leave most of the interpretation to the Christians on this site. There is evidence to suggest both ways, although I do not have any immediate verses on hand.

TheOtherDaniel said:
And even in that discussion, makes the ineresting observation that environment can change behaviour ("straight" fruit flies acting "gay" in the given circumstances). And it's a whole can of worms there - the white-eye gene is a gene that codes for a lack of pigment, and is considered a loss of information (a deleterious mutation). And this gene is associated with homosexual behaviour? The article rightly goes on to highlight the risk that, as our understanding of the human genome increases, what happens if the gene is found, and present in more than the gay population? I might carry the gene. What then? What if people decide to have gene therapy to remove the gene, or stop it from expressing, and homosexuality becomes a "disease", like Rogue seeking treatment in the X-men movies because she wanted a "normal" life. The outlook is Orwellian, that's for sure. In truth, as is discussed in one of those links, there is a range of population who are always straight, who are always gay, and there are some who flip flop. The gene will probably make you more likely to be homosexual, but environmental factors will almost certainly be triggers. And, yes, this is speculation, but it is a theory that allows for those individuals who do seek healing in this area of their lives, and achieve it, rare as those cases may be. The analogy, although people won't like it, is that if there is a gene for agression or addictive personality, that doesn't excuse the person from punching random strangers (or non-random homosexuals) or developing a cocaine addiction. We are still responsible for our actions and will be held to account.
Currently, the viewpoint on homosexuality is it is either something of mental conditioning and can be "flip-flopped" (mostly conservative/religious viewpoint with the occasional non-religious individual as well), or a combination of both genetics and nurture of environment that is very unlikely to be able to flip-flop so easily as the other side may suggest (mostly liberal/non-religious or religious viewpoint), yes. Other than such, there really isn't much more we can get from this conversation besides source link battles that will never be fully conclusive.

Shall we agree to disagree on the fundamental matter, and let this rather.. stale thread be, now?
 

triggrhappy94

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Hey people who keep quoting me (Im not quoting, because I don't care; I'm only explaining my point)
I said "they don't understand the seperate of church and state," I was referring to how its the same people who would write a strong anti-gay book, who also protest and petition for the illegitimacy of gay marriage because it is a SIN.
SIN, i wonder where I've heard that word before
 

TheOtherDaniel

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triggrhappy94 said:
Hey people who keep quoting me (Im not quoting, because I don't care; I'm only explaining my point)
I said "they don't understand the seperate of church and state," I was referring to how its the same people who would write a strong anti-gay book, who also protest and petition for the illegitimacy of gay marriage because it is a SIN.
SIN, i wonder where I've heard that word before
Your explanation still doesn't explain your reference to the separation of church and state, which, as mentioned before, was to protect people's beliefs and way of life i.e. the church, rather than to stop people protesting as a result of their beliefs. Section 116 of the Asutralian Constitution states:
"The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth. "

Apparently the US constitution says something similar. You'll note it says nothing about religious zealots being disallowed from disagreeing with public policy, and does say the state can't dictate religious bliefs.

You may not care, but founding fathers did.
 

triggrhappy94

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TheOtherDaniel said:
triggrhappy94 said:
Hey people who keep quoting me (Im not quoting, because I don't care; I'm only explaining my point)
I said "they don't understand the seperate of church and state," I was referring to how its the same people who would write a strong anti-gay book, who also protest and petition for the illegitimacy of gay marriage because it is a SIN.
SIN, i wonder where I've heard that word before
Your explanation still doesn't explain your reference to the separation of church and state, which, as mentioned before, was to protect people's beliefs and way of life i.e. the church, rather than to stop people protesting as a result of their beliefs. Section 116 of the Asutralian Constitution states:
"The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth. "

Apparently the US constitution says something similar. You'll note it says nothing about religious zealots being disallowed from disagreeing with public policy, and does say the state can't dictate religious bliefs.

You may not care, but founding fathers did.
Ok first, I meant I didn't care about explaining myself to any one dirrectly.

Second, I get that the seperation is meant to keep the state from forming the church, but I was referring to the church forming the state (less fascism, more monarchy).
I know that there's some over lap in laws and the Ten Commandments (and other religous rules) and it works: it is bad to kill and steal. But these people act to pass laws with no other reason then its sinful.
 

TheOtherDaniel

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triggrhappy94 said:
Ok first, I meant I didn't care about explaining myself to any one dirrectly.

Second, I get that the seperation is meant to keep the state from forming the church, but I was referring to the church forming the state (less fascism, more monarchy).
I know that there's some over lap in laws and the Ten Commandments (and other religous rules) and it works: it is bad to kill and steal. But these people act to pass laws with no other reason then its sinful.
As opposed to being "bad"? The laws that we have, we have because of Christian principles, and they form the foundation of the legal system. All men are equal in the eyes of the law, as they are before their maker, regardless of wealth or status. Bears killing deers is not bad, but people killing people is because....? If nature is red in tooth and claw, then there is no "natural" law one can appeal to to justify not killing someone, as you're bigger and stronger, and they may have inconvenienced you.

But I get your point. However, I would argue that the reason that things are considered sins is because they cause harm to self, or others, or our standing before God. They are not just arbitrary from a Christian's perspective. Even if you don't agree with their perspective, there is more reason than "it's a sin" although some Christians may not be able to articulate that.
 

triggrhappy94

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TheOtherDaniel said:
triggrhappy94 said:
Ok first, I meant I didn't care about explaining myself to any one dirrectly.

Second, I get that the seperation is meant to keep the state from forming the church, but I was referring to the church forming the state (less fascism, more monarchy).
I know that there's some over lap in laws and the Ten Commandments (and other religous rules) and it works: it is bad to kill and steal. But these people act to pass laws with no other reason then its sinful.
As opposed to being "bad"? The laws that we have, we have because of Christian principles, and they form the foundation of the legal system. All men are equal in the eyes of the law, as they are before their maker, regardless of wealth or status. Bears killing deers is not bad, but people killing people is because....? If nature is red in tooth and claw, then there is no "natural" law one can appeal to to justify not killing someone, as you're bigger and stronger, and they may have inconvenienced you.

But I get your point. However, I would argue that the reason that things are considered sins is because they cause harm to self, or others, or our standing before God. They are not just arbitrary from a Christian's perspective. Even if you don't agree with their perspective, there is more reason than "it's a sin" although some Christians may not be able to articulate that.
I'm kind of having fun with our discussion.
Violence may be in nature, even in ours, we have, for the most part, evolved past the point of killing each other without at least trying to make a supportable reason to justify it.
I'm sure Christian princples were originally from other religions and coded laws.

It may just be me, but to save our standing before God is not a real reason for passing a law.
 

TheOtherDaniel

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triggrhappy94 said:
I'm kind of having fun with our discussion.
Violence may be in nature, even in ours, we have, for the most part, evolved past the point of killing each other without at least trying to make a supportable reason to justify it.
Animals have a supportable reason for killing - you're a threat, or you look like you could be something to eat. There are only 2 reasons that people act good: cops or conscience. You either enforce a punishment for undesirable or wrong behaviour, or a person needs to know that something is wrong and choose not to do so. Violence is what you get when you take laws away - not for nothing do we use the term "lawlessness" for a violent, dangerous situation, as opposed to, say, a mere absence of police presence.

triggrhappy94 said:
I'm sure Christian princples were originally from other religions and coded laws.
Yes, Christian principles were originally from Judaic law, which fits neatly in both categories, and predates everything else which remotely resembles what we would consider in modern society to be just, such as the equality of rich and poor. Jesus - whom we have more evidence for in terms of what he did (dying and being seen again alive) and said, as recorded in the Bible, than we have of Alexander the Great, or indeed Julius Ceasar - said himself that he had not come to do away with the Old Testament law, but to fulfil it.

If there was any borrowing, it is from the Judeo-Christian tradition.
triggrhappy94 said:
It may just be me, but to save our standing before God is not a real reason for passing a law.
Depends on your perception of law. If it just to stop people from hurting each other, then maybe not. But if you think laws are there to protect people from themselves as well, then it's a very good reason, if an eternity in Hell can be considered "harmful". If you think laws should reflect the ethics of a society, and if you live in a Christian nation, then it's very appropriate. My personal view is that man-made laws should reflect what is right and wrong, and that can't be done without reference to a higher moral law.