I am mad at Arkham City

[Ronmartin]

Now, people, in this thread I want to talk about Arkham City. I finished it last night, and cannot think back on the game without getting angry. Before I begin, though, I should let you know that I mostly want to talk about the end of the game. Therefore, THERE WILL BE SPOILERS IN THIS THREAD. Got it? If you don't like spoilers, this is your warning. Leave now.


They gone? Good! I can't stand people who whine about revealing the plot! A good story should be able to stand as an artistic journey! Who cares if you know that it was his sled going in? It's still an enjoyable story unless you're as thick as pea soup!

Ahem. Yes, then. Arkham City.

Now, please don't get me wrong. I'm not here to start a flame war. Nor am I here to say Arkham City was a bad game.The gameplay was fast-paced and flowing, the studio vastly improved the boss fights, and there's this one scene where you get to punch a shark in the face. Awesome sauce on a steakburger, am I right? Besides, I wouldn't be so mad if it was a bad game through and through. No, I'm mad because it was a great game that was just a few steps short of perfect for the majority of the game, and then just gave up on itself five minutes from the end.

To start, the game's final boss really lacked the qualities of a final boss fight. In Arkham Asylum, the final boss fight had issues, but at least it was a Most Definitely The Final Boss Fight, i.e., the Joker has grown ten feet tall and super muscular and his plans to destroy Gotham are ready to begin unless you stop him here and now. Here, the battle was against a villain who was introduced in an actually quite clever plot twist but has not even been seen yet in the game. A villain who comes out of nowhere it not a final boss fight. The final fight works best when it's built up to by the plot: Mario collecting all those stars to fight Bowser, Freeman rampaging through the streets to get to Breen, Leon shooting up all those Ganados to get the chance to shoot a pesky twelve year old Napoleon in the face with a sniper rifle (dear GOD that was fun), et cetera et cetera blah blah blah. That wasn't unforgivable, however.

What is unforgivable is that there's no resolution. No denouement. After Joker dies (that was the spoiler), Batman carries him out and everyone gives up. The thugs don't attack, Harley just gasps at the body, and Batman walks out Arkham City's front door. Gordon asks Batman what happened. Batman heroically fails to answer or emote and walks off. End scene. Basically, everyone looks at each other and says, well, I guess there's nothing more we can really do to resolve the story, whatever, I'm going out to get donuts.

They built up this entire game and then let the whole thing fall flat. This is unacceptable. It had this whole mess of factions, enemies, and threats, but I genuinely thought it could pull them all together. But no, everything just falls flat. And don't any of you dare tell me that the story gets fleshed out in Catwoman's story. I object to the very existence of DLC and subscribe to the belief that if something is not on the game disk when I buy it then it does not exist. I don't even have Xbox live, but the thing is, I was thinking about subscribing to it, just for the minimum time period, just to download Catwoman's campaign. But now? I'm not going to. I can't even be convinced to bother finishing searching for all those Riddler trophies, because that could only lead to a resolution scene between Riddler and Batman, and this game has failed to impress me with resolutions.

Anyway, sorry for the long rant. I'm starting this thread in the hopes of hearing your opinions, fellow escapists, on the matter. Is something like this forgivable? Does a horrible ending make for a bad game overall, even if the beginning and middle were fine? What could Roksteady have done to make the ending work? I look forward to reading your thoughts.

 

[Delsana]

A horrible ending, as long as it's not based on a subjection that it's horrible, can indeed make the victory bittersweet and as such it can ruin the entire game in some certain cases due to feeling that it just didn't matter.

 

[lordmoneywager]

So would you recomend buying this game, with all the flaws it has?

 

[Radeonx]

So would you recomend buying this game, with all the flaws it has?

Yes.
Aside from the lackluster ending, it is fucking awesome.

OT: I agree, sort of. I wasn't as angry at the ending as you were, but it was very lackluster compared to the rest of what should have been an amazing game.

 

[d.revan07]

"Hush little baby don't say a word, momma's gonna kill for you the whole damn world..."
'Nuff Said

 

[SilverHammerMan]

So would you recomend buying this game, with all the flaws it has?

I sure as hell would.

True, the final boss came out of nowhere, but the final twist was incredibly clever, and from a gameplay perspective is was far and away better than the one in Arkham Asylum.
I do agree that Clayface isn't really an emotionally satisfying final boss, but what else could Rocksteady have done? Pumped up the Joker again? That was universally greeted as an incredibly lame final boss.
I think the only way they could have had a proper boss fight would be to either have a villain other than the Joker (Blasphemy, I know) or, and this only just occurred to me as I was typing this;
Have the poisoned blood start affecting Batman again during the final fight with the Joker. Picture it, the both of them on their last legs, fighting desperately to get the cure, all the while Batman is hallucinating wildly, flashing back to his past and plumbing his own psyche.

That would have been cool. Anyway, I forgive the Clayface fight because it was a clever twist that was actually foreshadowed, and I enjoyed the fight on a gameplay level.

One thing I kept wondering though; the joker had the cure since Batman got it from Freeze, why didn't he actually use it?

 

[Ronmartin]

So would you recomend buying this game, with all the flaws it has?

Knowing what I do now, I would have waited for a price drop. Don't misunderstand me: everything before the ending really is awesome. I just feel like I climbed up the world's tallest mountain, only to discover that there's a volcanic crater inside. I'm dissappointed by the imminent fiery death, but I still don't regret the climb.

 

[Ronmartin]

One thing I kept wondering though; the joker had the cure since Batman got it from Freeze, why didn't he actually use it?

Don't forget, Joker never actually got the cure. Talia al Ghul intercepted it after Harley stole it. I suspect that this is why you find Harley tied up and gagged in the steel mill the second time through.

I also enjoyed the Clayface fight, I just didn't think that it really worked as a This Is The Final Boss battle. However, I think that the idea you had there probably would have been really cool, if it would be worked out right.

 

[Ronmartin]

Oh dear yes - lets have every boss fight follow the example same trope, that's what makes a game good, yes? That's what makes a boss fight a boss fight and.. wait a minute, no. Not at all.

The story was excellent and the extra little plot twist in the end with Clayface I would have NEVER seen coming if it hadn't been for some snooping around I had done earlier in the game that led me to believe he'd be in there and as time went on, I started to realize what the deal was. Either way... the silent stoic ending, combined with the voicemail message was the absolute perfect sendoff of the Joker in this universe. Gordon understands the relationship between Batman and Joker, and really - what was anyone going to do. The sight of the Joker dead would have been absolutely shocking to anyone watching whether it was Harley, henchmen or the police.

Naw, that ending worked perfectly.

I'm not saying stories can't shake things up a bit, and the Clayface plot twist did just that. All I said was that he didn't FEEL like a final boss.

Hmm...I still think the ending was a bit abrupt, but I do think there is something to be said for your analysis. Thank you for your contribution.

 

[Sniper Team 4]

I thought the ending was perfect. Everyone's reactions were perfect. An idol, a god-among-men, Batman's counter part, has just died. No one thought the Joker could actually die. It's shock that causes even the bad guys to stand there in silence. I'm sure the thought of, "Oh man, he just took out Joker. Do I really stand a chance?" was crossing their minds too.
I also liked it as I saw it as a tribute to Mark Hamill's final work as the Joker. No better ending than that.

I'll agree that the final boss fight felt like it was missing something, but then so did Arkham Asylum's. Joker's fight was the easiest in the game for me.

 

[SilverHammerMan]

One thing I kept wondering though; the joker had the cure since Batman got it from Freeze, why didn't he actually use it?

Don't forget, Joker never actually got the cure. Talia al Ghul intercepted it after Harley stole it. I suspect that this is why you find Harley tied up and gagged in the steel mill the second time through.

Ah, that makes sense, for some reason I thought that it had been the Joker who tied Harley up, for the lulz. I was sure I saw the Joker get the cure before he ran into the arena, guess that was just my mind filling in the blanks. Derp. I wonder if I can rewatch the cinematics, I really need to clear up these plot points in my head.

 

[Vanguard_Ex]

-snip-

That was kind of the point of the ending though. The fact that the thugs don't attack and Harley is too stunned to do anything is good, it really hammers home the point:
Joker. is. dead.

The Joker, the most iconic staple of crime in Gotham City, the main driving force between so much decay and suffering, is finally dead. And yet Batman isn't joyful or relieved, because he never wanted to kill. He's a true hero, and the fact that even though the death is of the most heinous criminal in the city he risks his life to protect, the city that took his parents, he still feels empty. I think the ending was spot on, because I got so drawn in that I and my friends who played through the game all responded exactly as the in-game characters did.
That is what storytelling, and more specifically a dramatic ending, should do.

 

[Ronmartin]

Vanguard_Ex:

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure I really buy it, for this reason: I never really got the impression that Joker was supposed to be the major villain for Arkham City. Throughout the game, the plot pointed to Hugo Strange being the primary antagonist. I guess that after Strange and Ra's were killed off, then it was only natural for Joker to rise to the task, but I'm not sure there was quite enough build-up with the Joker for me to make the connection you did. I'm starting to wonder now if it wouldn't have been better to have the business with the Joker resolved before facing Hugo. Symbolically, having scaled that massive tower and giving myself acrophobia, everything was set up for an epic final confrontation.

However, what you say makes sense. Listening to all of your defenses is making me slightly less angry at the whole matter. I'm glad to see that there were some people out there who were able to think it through and enjoy it.

 

[DustyDrB]

I liked the use of Clayface (it played on our perception of an earlier event in the game. Remember when you walk in on the "dead Joker", only to have a live one come and knock you out?). I liked that boss fight. I loved the ending.

 

[Nieroshai]

One thing I kept wondering though; the joker had the cure since Batman got it from Freeze, why didn't he actually use it?

Don't forget, Joker never actually got the cure. Talia al Ghul intercepted it after Harley stole it. I suspect that this is why you find Harley tied up and gagged in the steel mill the second time through.

I also enjoyed the Clayface fight, I just didn't think that it really worked as a This Is The Final Boss battle. However, I think that the idea you had there probably would have been really cool, if it would be worked out right.

I think a lot of games people were disappointed in that I actually liked seem to have a badass penultimate boss fight, then a filler fight against a disarmed mastermind at the end. A sort of playable ending, if you will. FFX did this, and I still consider Jecht to be the final boss and Yevon as a playable cutscene. Same in 358/2 Days, Xion was a great JRPG final boss, then you go fight Riku in a saddeningly easy battle. When I went in to Arkham Asylum, I was just expecting Batman. I wasn't expecting extravagant boss fights. The stealth, beating up thugs, and outwitting (not outbrawling) the super villains were what I was going in for. I wanted to solve the mystery. To me, boss fights are for Superman. For Batman, the villains are always either man-to-man brawls or mind games, not protracted fights against some super-powered death beast. To me the Joker's death felt like the end of a saga, not just the game. This is the Animated Series Batman, and that series was my absolute favorite show ever, because it let Bruce be a detective. But this is just my take, I can see how going into it purely as a gamer and getting a weak fight would be frustrating.

 

[ManInRed]

I love the ending. But I was hoping for a chance to fight Clayface the entire game through, and got more hopeful as the game threw every other villain at me. So getting a chance to with that twist, awesome! And the hints of one of the Jokers being Clayface through out the game were cool, I especially like the first time you see the Joker in detective mode he is missing bones. It exactly the sort of twist that works best in a comic book, but I think they did a good job with putting it in a game.

The Joker fight was an epilogue to Batman basically saving/ending Arkham City to save a girl. The Joker died due to his own foolishness on many levels. I'm hoping the little mystery bits you get from completing other side quests reveal more, but as far as I'm concern the story is pretty wrap up as is. I defeated main villains, I know all about how their plans lead up to this, and the Joker's plot resolved separately in a final battle. The A and B plot tied up nicely and separately. And for what it's worth I kind of see it as an end to Mark Hamill voicing the Joker too, which makes this death a bit more meaningful.

 

[The_Deleted]

The worst part is that the ending with Batman is not the ending if you used the code for the Catwoman DLC. Which, regardless of what you think of he ending, pisses all over it's impact. If anyone knows how to get shot of DLC you've... DL'ed... I'd be a happy camper.

Surely the ending evokes the impact that Joker has had on Gotham crime fraternity. The fact that Batman finally defeats him would leave people in shock.

 

[VoidWanderer]

Was the game ending bad, or did you miss the blatant clues that the game literally tells you twice?

Or was it that everyone was stunned by that fact that the most iconic villain ever created died?

Also consider the similarities...

The second decent Batman game has the Joker die, in the second decent Batman movie the guy who played the Joker passed on.

This was a stunning twist (admittedly hardly original given the cartoons and comics) but this is actually seen. Completely impossible to go back on this.

 

[agentorange98]

Personally I felt the final boss was the strongest boss fight in the game, I agree that it wasn't really built up at all but they really can't do that with the way Batman is connected to his rogues gallery; I mean Joker is hardly Batman's equal in fighting and the only reason he worked as a final boss for Arkham Asylum is because he took the Monster Man serum (call it was it is Paul Dini, give Matt Wagner the credit he's due) and they couldn't really have him do that again, also it depends on what you mean by the boss battle cause personally I thought of the entire Monarch theater level as the final boss level thing (although I secretly hoped it was only the 75% mark but still) meaning it incorporated stealth, multi person combat, and heavy gadget use all the elements of the game and it used them in a dynamic way. See the thing is Rocksteady doesn't know how to do Boss Fights right, yeah I said it, they struggled in Asylum and they struggled here, the problem is they're constantly afraid to make their boss fights difficult and usually design them as very 1 dimensional never using the environments or the characters to full potential. For instance what if clayface after hitting the Lazarus pit exploded out to become an almost giant sized monster to move through the streets of Gotham, and you'd have to combat him by staying ahead of his rampage and glide attacking stratgic spots to hollow out a spot to plant explosives and blow him up. I mean for god's sake it's an open world map and there isn't even a single chase event in the whole game, this makes no sense. In the end I think that people are actually kind of blinded by Arkham City, it was a great game no doubt but nowhere near as great as it might've been. In this case look at all the villains who are included strictly as cameos or who you still barely have any interaction with: Calendar Man, Killer Croc, Black Mask, Mad Hatter, Hugo Strange (They build him up like mad but you never fight him at all? Even in a game of wits? The Riddler got a better deal then him) Harley Quinn, Deadshot, hush, and arguably Bane. That's most of the villains in the game right there and a lot of their potential wasted, again imagine an extended cross roof top battle with deadshot as you each via for the high ground in a deadly sniper duel, An extended use of detective skills stealth and hearing aid sonar to fight killer croc through his make shift meat locker in the sewers full of people he's dragged down and partially eaten, being forced to work for the mad hatter fighting in gangland warfare as his main leiutenant as the world around you oozes into a dark wonderland version of reality, or literally teaming up with villains like Mr. Freeze and Bane, like when Mr. Freeze figures out where Nora is you two would team up to besiege the building she's locked in, or have holiday specific events with calendar man that are actually challenges like he's somehow put someone inside a giant hidden jack-o-lantern set to explode the second halloween ends