I can't get lost (Skyrim related)

[Ironic Pirate]

Yeah they do. Your little journal thing often gives directions like "Southeast of Whiterun" and NPCs will often mark your map.

I have to disagree with you here. Compare this:
"Southeast of Whiterun"
To that:
"Eydis Fire-Eye tells me that the eggmine is located a short distance southwest of Balmora, in the bluffs west of the Odai River. The old suspension bridge across the Odai is just southeast of the mine entrance. I'm to follow the river south of Balmora until I see the bridge overhead."
Yeah, you are REALLY expected to use your trusty magical GPS. :/

Then that's not exploring, then? Op wanted to explore, and stuff like that. If the directions are that specific, it's the same as the GPS just a little less helpful.

Let's say a friend tells me where a really awesome restaurant is. If he gave exact directions to it as opposed to marking it on a GPS, I didn't go exploring for it; I followed his directions.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

For most people getting lost and not knowing exactly what to do causes frustration. That's why many (including me) consider Morrowind to be a terrible game. Especially since same year came out Gothic 2: A Much Better Game.

Many consider Morrowind to be a terrible game?.....realy?

Some people were frustrated as hell when presented with Morrowind's slightly cryptic quest logs. I remember a friend of mine who loved the idea of the game handing me my xbox copy back after he spent two months trying to find his way around. He didn't have access to the internet, so walkthroughs were no help to him.
Its an acquired taste, and some people don't have patience for games like that. Everyone has their own standards.

 

[Vegosiux]

Aahh Morrowind...the only game where you have to find a rock near a bunch of other rocks <3
Yeah, I do say, it is kinda easy here. But hey, nearly all games are easy these days!

Well yes but why, why are games being dumbed down so much?

I guess it's the price to pay for becoming a more mainstream form of entertainment :/

Compare Morrowind to Daggerfall.

Morrowind at the least gave you better directions and in some cases told you exactly where you needed to go.

Daggerfall? fuck that, you are an adventurer....spy....person.... okay, I never really figured out what you were supposed to be, then again I was 9 and finally got a computer in addition to my consoles.

I digress, you were told "generally to the east, but not that far east, it might be to the south near some trees though".

I remember getting lost in Daggerfall just by trying to find a merchant to buy some armor.

Combine that with every mission being timed...some timed to the point of the quest-turn in person not being there "until the specified day" but "on the specified day only".

 

[Shirastro]

Well yes but why, why are games being dumbed down so much?

I guess it's the price to pay for becoming a more mainstream form of entertainment :/

Yep more or less, i think thats why we burn through games so quickly these days, man i remember the first time i beat morrowind i felt like a boss, it's funny that you mentioned those 2 quests btw. often use them as a point of reference as to why morrowind was so awesome.

Also, there's a difference between "dumbing down" and "streamlining". Be honest now guys, a lot of what you think is awesome about Morrowind are things that would be considered horrible and outdated these days. Trust me, a lot of what you say was so damn fantastic is nostalgia talking. That doesn't mean that you can't be right about Skyrim, for example. It's just something I think you should consider

Ah but this isn't streamlining. I for one love the new much easier to use leveling / skill / perk system. You can do all the things you could have done before but it's much less confusing and much more, well, streamlined.

Giving you a constant pointer to where you have to go is not streamlining, it's removing a whole element of a game.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Well yes but why, why are games being dumbed down so much?

I guess it's the price to pay for becoming a more mainstream form of entertainment :/

Yep more or less, i think thats why we burn through games so quickly these days, man i remember the first time i beat morrowind i felt like a boss, it's funny that you mentioned those 2 quests btw. often use them as a point of reference as to why morrowind was so awesome.

Also, there's a difference between "dumbing down" and "streamlining". Be honest now guys, a lot of what you think is awesome about Morrowind are things that would be considered horrible and outdated these days. Trust me, a lot of what you say was so damn fantastic is nostalgia talking. That doesn't mean that you can't be right about Skyrim, for example. It's just something I think you should consider

For the record, I finally got a copy of Morrowind this past Summer, and I was heavily impressed by the way quest directions worked -- I thought it was really cool, and it's the only game in the series that used that system. Daggerfall and Arena both had fast travel systems that would have made the heaviest defender of the one from Oblivion blush, and quests that involved dungeon crawls allowed (borderline required, actually) you to fast travel directly to the location of the dungeon; of course, even the randomly generated dungeons in those games were so ridiculously huge that there was still a huge element of searching needed to find the quest item. City based quests were a bit different; usually your target was in another town, and in a house that wasn't marked on the map. You had to ask around for the location until you found someone who actually knew where mr. so and so's house was.

Point being, it's not just nostalgia speaking, but a lot of the mechanics that people loved in Morrowind were unique to that game, and removing them in Oblivion really just reset the status quo. Not all of them, just some of the better ones.

 

[Dimitriov]

Yeah they do. Your little journal thing often gives directions like "Southeast of Whiterun" and NPCs will often mark your map.

I have to disagree with you here. Compare this:
"Southeast of Whiterun"
To that:
"Eydis Fire-Eye tells me that the eggmine is located a short distance southwest of Balmora, in the bluffs west of the Odai River. The old suspension bridge across the Odai is just southeast of the mine entrance. I'm to follow the river south of Balmora until I see the bridge overhead."
Yeah, you are REALLY expected to use your trusty magical GPS. :/

Then that's not exploring, then? Op wanted to explore, and stuff like that. If the directions are that specific, it's the same as the GPS just a little less helpful.

Let's say a friend tells me where a really awesome restaurant is. If he gave exact directions to it as opposed to marking it on a GPS, I didn't go exploring for it; I followed his directions.

Except in one case you have tunnel vision focused on your compass and in the other you are looking at the world around you searching for landmarks.

It's the difference between fighting an enemy in a game, or hitting a QTE and watching your character do it for you.

 

[Vegosiux]

Giving you a constant pointer to where you have to go is not streamlining, it's removing a whole element of a game.

As long as you have an active quest, no other ones will go active. So simply leave a "talk to the guy next door" as an active quest, and that's the only arrow you'll ever have on the map. And it's not even "dumbing down" because finding the guy next door is about as hard with a quest pointer as it is without ^^

 

[Snowblindblitz]

You're missing the point: those "outdated" features aren't outdated to the people who enjoy them. What you're saying is we need to do away with them so people who don't like them won't have to deal with them. What I'm saying is they're rare to begin with, so please don't make them nonexistent and take them away from the people who enjoy them completely. Just because you can't comprehend why people would find it fun doesn't mean they don't honestly find it fun. I have a hard time understanding why people prefer watching sports to playing them; that doesn't give me the right to force them to turn off the TV and make them play a pickup game with me.

But you are making the same attack on modern features. I even defend some old-school gaming features, but I used the phrase "archaic". Lack of direction in a game is an "archaic" feature. You can simulate it by doing what most of the players have recommended in this thread.

You are in this thread under the assumption everyone is out to take away the features you love in games. I even left my argument vague, while saying we can have both. On topic, you can find these locations by simply getting lost, and some npcs give directions. Especially looking for NPCs in towns, since most other NPCs are talking about relevant topics to your quest.

 

[Terminal Blue]

But this of-course isn't only a problem with the recent Bethesda games. Pretty much the entire marked has become oriented toward the casual masses.

I agree with what you say, just not really not your tone.

People don't fit neatly into a 'casual'/'hardcore' dichotomy. I think Skyrim is a vastly better game than Morrowind (largely because to me it feels better designed) but I've probably played Dwarf Fortress more than either. I don't claim to be 'casual' or 'hardcore', and I certainly wouldn't claim that replacing map markers with oddly specific directions would graduate me from one to the other.

There is a middle way.

 

[Jake the Snake]

Really? You were endeared by not knowing where the hell you were going in Morrowind? That was one of the few things that irritated the living shit out of me when I played the game. That and no fast travel. I have the say, Skyrim, from my perspective, did a good job of combining the joy of actually traveling through the world (in Oblivion the world was so vanilla, it was boring and tedious), and getting to your quests efficiently (the fast travel present in Oblivion and not Morrowind). This way, I can go to a location nearby, and explore a little bit, but still get to my destination and not feel like my time is being wasted.

 

[nbamaniac]

Ahh the effect of nostalgia on people. Honestly I thought the system of adding an optional marker for quests is an improvement from that of either arena or dagerfall. Let's face it; quests can become tedious as fuck. It becomes what we call uhmm, work. And most people don't like work; they want fun.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

Yeah they do. Your little journal thing often gives directions like "Southeast of Whiterun" and NPCs will often mark your map.

I have to disagree with you here. Compare this:
"Southeast of Whiterun"
To that:
"Eydis Fire-Eye tells me that the eggmine is located a short distance southwest of Balmora, in the bluffs west of the Odai River. The old suspension bridge across the Odai is just southeast of the mine entrance. I'm to follow the river south of Balmora until I see the bridge overhead."
Yeah, you are REALLY expected to use your trusty magical GPS. :/

Then that's not exploring, then? Op wanted to explore, and stuff like that. If the directions are that specific, it's the same as the GPS just a little less helpful.

Let's say a friend tells me where a really awesome restaurant is. If he gave exact directions to it as opposed to marking it on a GPS, I didn't go exploring for it; I followed his directions.

Except in one case you have tunnel vision focused on your compass and in the other you are looking at the world around you searching for landmarks.

It's the difference between fighting an enemy in a game, or hitting a QTE and watching your character do it for you.

Not really. It's more like a QTE compared to a cutscene. If specific directions are given, you have to do a little bit, but the bulk is done for you. Whereas a cutscene everything is done for you.

 

[Shirastro]

Really? You were endeared by not knowing where the hell you were going in Morrowind? That was one of the few things that irritated the living shit out of me when I played the game. That and no fast travel. I have the say, Skyrim, from my perspective, did a good job of combining the joy of actually traveling through the world (in Oblivion the world was so vanilla, it was boring and tedious), and getting to your quests efficiently (the fast travel present in Oblivion and not Morrowind). This way, I can go to a location nearby, and explore a little bit, but still get to my destination and not feel like my time is being wasted.

Yes really.

And insta fast travel anywhere without having to find the place first is THE reason i hated Oblivion.

 

[Dimitriov]

Yeah they do. Your little journal thing often gives directions like "Southeast of Whiterun" and NPCs will often mark your map.

I have to disagree with you here. Compare this:
"Southeast of Whiterun"
To that:
"Eydis Fire-Eye tells me that the eggmine is located a short distance southwest of Balmora, in the bluffs west of the Odai River. The old suspension bridge across the Odai is just southeast of the mine entrance. I'm to follow the river south of Balmora until I see the bridge overhead."
Yeah, you are REALLY expected to use your trusty magical GPS. :/

Then that's not exploring, then? Op wanted to explore, and stuff like that. If the directions are that specific, it's the same as the GPS just a little less helpful.

Let's say a friend tells me where a really awesome restaurant is. If he gave exact directions to it as opposed to marking it on a GPS, I didn't go exploring for it; I followed his directions.

Except in one case you have tunnel vision focused on your compass and in the other you are looking at the world around you searching for landmarks.

It's the difference between fighting an enemy in a game, or hitting a QTE and watching your character do it for you.

Not really. It's more like a QTE compared to a cutscene. If specific directions are given, you have to do a little bit, but the bulk is done for you. Whereas a cutscene everything is done for you.

I understand what you mean, but I am not sure I agree. To me it just feels like it inhibits role-playing in what is otherwise a proper role-playing game.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

You're missing the point: those "outdated" features aren't outdated to the people who enjoy them. What you're saying is we need to do away with them so people who don't like them won't have to deal with them. What I'm saying is they're rare to begin with, so please don't make them nonexistent and take them away from the people who enjoy them completely. Just because you can't comprehend why people would find it fun doesn't mean they don't honestly find it fun. I have a hard time understanding why people prefer watching sports to playing them; that doesn't give me the right to force them to turn off the TV and make them play a pickup game with me.

But you are making the same attack on modern features. I even defend some old-school gaming features, but I used the phrase "archaic". Lack of direction in a game is an "archaic" feature. You can simulate it by doing what most of the players have recommended in this thread.

You are in this thread under the assumption everyone is out to take away the features you love in games. I even left my argument vague, while saying we can have both. On topic, you can find these locations by simply getting lost, and some npcs give directions. Especially looking for NPCs in towns, since most other NPCs are talking about relevant topics to your quest.

Huh? No. I'm in this thread with the understanding that this particular series, which is one of very few examples of its genre, has done away with those features, leaving people who like them essentially out in the cold. There are plenty of games that have those new-school features; I dislike the fact that the last holdout of the old-school features is giving up on them, and people are supporting it by saying "I like these newer features. If you don't like them, mod the game" when the more logical thing would be "I like these newer features. I'll play a newer series that has them, instead of praising an older series for selling out, and laughing at the loyal fans of the series who are now left with nothing that scratches the itch."

 

[HoradricNoob]

Just turn off the quest tracking, stop whining as well.

Think about how much bitching we would have to put up with if there was no quest tracking, how about no compass?

 

[Vegosiux]

And insta fast travel anywhere without having to find the place first is THE reason i hated Oblivion.

Uh, you could do that with some cities, but generally you had to have been there first before you could fast travel to it, wasn't it that way? But of course, M'aiq can still walk if he wants to.

 

[Snowblindblitz]

You're missing the point: those "outdated" features aren't outdated to the people who enjoy them. What you're saying is we need to do away with them so people who don't like them won't have to deal with them. What I'm saying is they're rare to begin with, so please don't make them nonexistent and take them away from the people who enjoy them completely. Just because you can't comprehend why people would find it fun doesn't mean they don't honestly find it fun. I have a hard time understanding why people prefer watching sports to playing them; that doesn't give me the right to force them to turn off the TV and make them play a pickup game with me.

But you are making the same attack on modern features. I even defend some old-school gaming features, but I used the phrase "archaic". Lack of direction in a game is an "archaic" feature. You can simulate it by doing what most of the players have recommended in this thread.

You are in this thread under the assumption everyone is out to take away the features you love in games. I even left my argument vague, while saying we can have both. On topic, you can find these locations by simply getting lost, and some npcs give directions. Especially looking for NPCs in towns, since most other NPCs are talking about relevant topics to your quest.

Huh? No. I'm in this thread with the understanding that this particular series, which is one of very few examples of its genre, has done away with those features, leaving people who like them essentially out in the cold. There are plenty of games that have those new-school features; I dislike the fact that the last holdout of the old-school features is giving up on them, and people are supporting it by saying "I like these newer features. If you don't like them, mod the game" when the more logical thing would be "I like these newer features. I'll play a newer series that has them, instead of praising an older series for selling out, and laughing at the loyal fans of the series who are now left with nothing that scratches the
itch."

But there are long-time fans that like them as well. Think we finally hit the middle ground here: I enjoyed Morrowwind and Oblivion, but love Skyrim, while you are in the Morrowwind and before crowd. I know of very few new series that delivers on the level of ES. I love the lore and established world in these games, and until they go Dirge of Cerberus on me, will probably keep playing them.

Though, what features are you arguing for the most?