I can't get lost (Skyrim related)

[DeathWyrmNexus]

Anyway, I haven't played Skyrim yet, but if it's anything like Oblivion, then yes, you really can't get lost at all. I guess it's nice to have some sort of a clear goal, but it does kill the exploration a bit. And just turning off the compass (or modding it out) doesn't really work either, because the characters don't give you instructions on how to get anywhere. (Why would they, you have a compass.)

A system where the compass is defaulted to off would be great, because then you would need to have the game give you directions (like in Morrowind), but if you got stuck, you could turn on the compass.

*blinks* Soooo, you're complaining about a compass telling you where things are and then complaining that people aren't pointing it out to you in the game. That seems very contradictory.

*sigh* As for the game itself, I've managed to spend over 120+ hours on it. I've done a lot of exploring without taking many quests. The game takes that into account as you can have the item in question when they ask for it. The reaction they have is amusing to me.

So yes, if you want to explore, stop questing and start exploring. Wander about, look at things.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Really? I fucking love how I never get lost. Linear dungeons are fucking boss.

Go into room, kill some dudes, solve a puzzle, go to next room. = Fun.

Go into room. Kill some dudes. Find fork in path. Get Lost. Back track to beginning, try path again, find nothing. Get headache, stop playing game for a while. = Not fun.

Spending time trying to find something is not fun. I'm happy a game developer finally realized that.

It's not fun /for you./ There's an entire genre dedicated to the fact that people enjoy exploring twisting mazes -- they're called Dungeon Crawlers, and Daggerfall in particular actually fit into it. Point being, yeah, there's a sizable demographic that actually finds that sort of thing fun. It sounds to me like you'd prefer it if the game was a straightforward action game. That's fine, and there's plenty of games that fit the bill, but it gets annoying when companies that cater to a niche start moving towards a different one for the simple reason that it sells better.

Heck, I miss the time when even First Person Shooters often had that kind of twisting level design. Finding secret areas filled with powerups used to be a huge part of the genre. These days there's almost never more than one destination, and if there's a legitimate fork in the path, you can guarantee that it either converges at the end, or one of the paths dead ends into a powerup. The good news is that not all games are set up that way, and also that linearity isn't a bad thing if the game is properly designed around being linear.

 

[Ironic Pirate]

Yeah they do. Your little journal thing often gives directions like "Southeast of Whiterun" and NPCs will often mark your map.

I have to disagree with you here. Compare this:
"Southeast of Whiterun"
To that:
"Eydis Fire-Eye tells me that the eggmine is located a short distance southwest of Balmora, in the bluffs west of the Odai River. The old suspension bridge across the Odai is just southeast of the mine entrance. I'm to follow the river south of Balmora until I see the bridge overhead."
Yeah, you are REALLY expected to use your trusty magical GPS. :/

Then that's not exploring, then? Op wanted to explore, and stuff like that. If the directions are that specific, it's the same as the GPS just a little less helpful.

Let's say a friend tells me where a really awesome restaurant is. If he gave exact directions to it as opposed to marking it on a GPS, I didn't go exploring for it; I followed his directions.

Except in one case you have tunnel vision focused on your compass and in the other you are looking at the world around you searching for landmarks.

It's the difference between fighting an enemy in a game, or hitting a QTE and watching your character do it for you.

Not really. It's more like a QTE compared to a cutscene. If specific directions are given, you have to do a little bit, but the bulk is done for you. Whereas a cutscene everything is done for you.

I understand what you mean, but I am not sure I agree. To me it just feels like it inhibits role-playing in what is otherwise a proper role-playing game.

I agree in that it can be excessive in some cases, but it can be removed rather easily. It's not a perfect system, but it's quite workable.

 

[SLy AsymMetrY]

The dungeon layouts in Skyrim are pretty easy. Today, I was surprised to make it out of a dungeon at a sprint. Even though I wasn't paying attention to my surroundings.

As far as being lost in Skyrim is concerned, the only way I get lost, is when I look at my clock and it says 4am.

 

[maninahat]

Aahh Morrowind...the only game where you have to find a rock near a bunch of other rocks <3
Yeah, I do say, it is kinda easy here. But hey, nearly all games are easy these days!

Well yes but why, why are games being dumbed down so much?

I guess it's the price to pay for becoming a more mainstream form of entertainment :/

They aren't being dumbed down, they are "getting less hard/frustrating". The main reason why games were hard was because they were badly designed, unfair, or asked players to do stupid, illogical or boring things. I can imagine Skyrim being infinitely more frustrating without the many convenient devices and mechanics.

 

[DarkRyter]

Really? I fucking love how I never get lost. Linear dungeons are fucking boss.

Go into room, kill some dudes, solve a puzzle, go to next room. = Fun.

Go into room. Kill some dudes. Find fork in path. Get Lost. Back track to beginning, try path again, find nothing. Get headache, stop playing game for a while. = Not fun.

Spending time trying to find something is not fun. I'm happy a game developer finally realized that.

It's not fun /for you./ There's an entire genre dedicated to the fact that people enjoy exploring twisting mazes -- they're called Dungeon Crawlers, and Daggerfall in particular actually fit into it. Point being, yeah, there's a sizable demographic that actually finds that sort of thing fun. It sounds to me like you'd prefer it if the game was a straightforward action game. That's fine, and there's plenty of games that fit the bill, but it gets annoying when companies that cater to a niche start moving towards a different one for the simple reason that it sells better.

Heck, I miss the time when even First Person Shooters often had that kind of twisting level design. Finding secret areas filled with powerups used to be a huge part of the genre. These days there's almost never more than one destination, and if there's a legitimate fork in the path, you can guarantee that it either converges at the end, or one of the paths dead ends into a powerup. The good news is that not all games are set up that way, and also that linearity isn't a bad thing if the game is properly designed around being linear.

There's a difference between open design, and needlessly padding out a level.

Note the two possible experience I mentioned. If I were to complete the dungeon in the second situation, what would be the difference between the two experiences?

Spoiler: Answer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip2aIt0ROM#t=5m03s

When mazes are just that, mazes, they needlessly break the flow of the game. Solving a maze doesn't require ingenuity, skill, or effort. It only needs time, and time is what it takes.

 

[Robert Ewing]

Aahh Morrowind...the only game where you have to find a rock near a bunch of other rocks <3
Yeah, I do say, it is kinda easy here. But hey, nearly all games are easy these days!

Well yes but why, why are games being dumbed down so much?

I guess it's the price to pay for becoming a more mainstream form of entertainment :/

If a game like that obtained a reputation for being especially challenging then the people that buy it would decrease. Not by much admittedly, but the point is they need to expand their fanbase as much as possible. Whatever it takes, they need to sell units...

It's incredibly selfish in a way, but they gotta make money somehow. And with it's something as anal as this, it makes enough...


OT: You can turn the marker off.

 

[Nazulu]

I've never played Morrowind, but I know where your coming from as I also sometimes like trying to figure out how to get places by thinking and remembering. If they were to bring back those type of challenges, they would have to at least give some clues on how to reach the next point. Also, it wouldn't be a good idea to have many quests that send you from one side of the map to the other without a compass, so they would have to make it work somehow.

 

[JMeganSnow]

I don't believe in wasting my time staring at a computer game going "WTF?!"

Granted, I enjoyed Gothic, where you actually had to BUY a map (a 'spensive map!) and even then it was not all that terribly useful, but Gothic was designed for that kind of gameplay. It was a small, but hugely-convoluted area where you wouldn't encounter 5 billion identical-looking trees/cliffs/bushes/hills, so you could actually learn your way around via landmarks. Also, every nook and cranny had something interesting in it, so if you did just go a-wandering, you got something out of it. Er, in the sense of finding something interesting, that is, in Skyrim you can still kill random mobs and get your herb on, but it's not quite the same.

Also in Gothic there'd be packs of beasts that you literally could not defeat until you reached a certain point, so frequently essays into the bushes would be followed by "YIPE YIPE YIPE YIPE!!!!" as you ran away from the raptors you'd stumbled onto or a plain "GAAAACK!" if they spotted you before you spotted them.

There's room in this world for all types of fun.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Really? I fucking love how I never get lost. Linear dungeons are fucking boss.

Go into room, kill some dudes, solve a puzzle, go to next room. = Fun.

Go into room. Kill some dudes. Find fork in path. Get Lost. Back track to beginning, try path again, find nothing. Get headache, stop playing game for a while. = Not fun.

Spending time trying to find something is not fun. I'm happy a game developer finally realized that.

It's not fun /for you./ There's an entire genre dedicated to the fact that people enjoy exploring twisting mazes -- they're called Dungeon Crawlers, and Daggerfall in particular actually fit into it. Point being, yeah, there's a sizable demographic that actually finds that sort of thing fun. It sounds to me like you'd prefer it if the game was a straightforward action game. That's fine, and there's plenty of games that fit the bill, but it gets annoying when companies that cater to a niche start moving towards a different one for the simple reason that it sells better.

Heck, I miss the time when even First Person Shooters often had that kind of twisting level design. Finding secret areas filled with powerups used to be a huge part of the genre. These days there's almost never more than one destination, and if there's a legitimate fork in the path, you can guarantee that it either converges at the end, or one of the paths dead ends into a powerup. The good news is that not all games are set up that way, and also that linearity isn't a bad thing if the game is properly designed around being linear.

There's a difference between open design, and needlessly padding out a level.

Note the two possible experience I mentioned. If I were to complete the dungeon in the second situation, what would be the difference between the two experiences?

Spoiler: Answer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aip2aIt0ROM#t=5m03s

When mazes are just that, mazes, they needlessly break the flow of the game. Solving a maze doesn't require ingenuity, skill, or effort. It only needs time, and time is what it takes.

Not necessarily. In RPGs, usually there's more to it than just getting to the end of the dungeon. Sure, getting from point A to point B completes the quest. But if you don't explore every little nook and cranny, you're going to miss out on gold and items. Same thing with older FPSs; if you just rush to the end of the level, you'll eventually beat the game, but you're going to get the bigger weapons later than if you'd explored a bit, and you're going to miss out on the cool powerups entirely. Another thing with RPGs is that a lot of the places you explore were, thematically, built to protect something. Think D&D; those dungeons are twisting and full of traps for a reason.

Plus, like I said, a well built dungeon really can be fun. Look at the original Eye of the Beholder trilogy, Dungeon Hack and, more recently, Mazes of Fate. They're nothing but slogs through overcomplicated dungeons, /and they're legitimately fun because of it./ I'm not asking you to enjoy this, but I am asking you to recognize that some people enjoy it for reasons other than blind nostalgia, and that niche series are niche for a reason, and it's always disappointing when one of them changes up the formula in an effort to appeal to the mainstream. I mean, imagine if a bullet hell shooter suddenly became a Gradius clone, or the next Civilization game suddenly went real time because RTS games are so much more mainstream; the outcry would be legitimate, and the people going "I'm glad this change came, I never understood that particular niche" would be really grating -- and hopefully nonexistent.

 

[Elf Defiler Korgan]

Sometimes I want to find something myself, look for other things along the way, but when I don't there is fast travel and the map compass, which can be turned off.

 

[Smeggs]

It's impossible to get lost even without markers if you're intelligent enough to remember where you are in relation to the rest of the game world. Basically once I found Riften, Whiterun, Winterhold and the Brotherhood sanctuary, I could pretty much find my way anywhere I wanted to go regardless simply by looking at landmarks. I know Ivarstead is on the opposite side of the Throat of the World from Whiterun, and Dragonsreach can be seen from literally anywhere on the plains on Whiterun's side of the mountain. Winterhold is to the far North, Dawnstar is N/W from Winterhold and Windhelm is N/E.

Probably the best landmark I've found is the Atrinoch stone and the Bonestrewn Crest in that area full of hotsprings. Very easy to point myself in the right direction from there.

 

[Lenin211]

Well yes but why, why are games being dumbed down so much?

I guess it's the price to pay for becoming a more mainstream form of entertainment :/

Gods forbid games becoming more accessible and playable to a wider audience! Giving a player knowledge of where to go or what to do isn't "dumbing down the game" it makes the game better. I bet we would see a lot more complaints if skyrim gave the player no direction at all.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Morrowind's idea of navigation: here's a blank fucking map, and a not-brilliantly-written journal, now go. Which is wonderful, if you want to spend the entire freaking game lost.

Just turn the marker off in Skyrim. Problem solved.

You mean, how you would actually have to find a new location if you were a stranger in a foreign land? Unless you've actually discovered it already why should you instantly know the exact location of one of hundreds of locations? Is it too much to ask to ask for a challenge in the exploration, because god knows I've managed to break everything else to make even Master difficulty a sunday stroll.

And once again, for the umpteenth time on this thread, turning the marker off doesn't really give the same experience. Save for one or two quests, the game expects you to use the compass. Have you played the 'Hide and Seek' game with any of the kids in town? The marker shows you where all of the kids are hiding! It's hardly game breaking but damn, talk about immersion breaking. I'm sent on a quest to exterminate a bandit chief within a specifically named location. There is no speech to indicate that said location has been marked on my map nor anything to indicate which direction it might even be in. The compass tells you where to go, you go there. I've got a few dozen locations marked on my map just from hearing a passing comment from an NPC!

Playing through Skyrim as it is feels like playing through Devil May Cry on Easy Automatic Mode. There's no challenge and no there's no reward. I'm not just complaining about the compass anymore, it's the dungeons themselves. They're beautiful and nice to look at, but compare to the overworld they're linear and exploration is practically impossible. There's no delight of finding a hidden chest, they're all out in the open ready to be looted by anyone with decent vision.

I'm loving the game simply because I've been waiting for it since I first beat Oblivion. It's an improvement in many areas, namely the combat and levelling. At the same time it's surgically removed a few rather important RPG elements for more action orientated and streamlined play.

Prepare yourself, because I'm about to get old school in this shit: use a pen and paper.

New Vegas' hardcore mode was a complete farce, by the way.

I didn't specify. A hunger and thirst bar? Probably unnecessary. A hardcore mode that removes the compass in the HUD as well as the direction markers? It'd at least give us people who don't want to be held by the hand through the game an option. As for the pen and paper idea I did it for Oblivion, but that quickly killed my printer as I amassed roughly 25-30 characters. Skyrim already has five characters sitting on my PC to be played, all I'm asking for is MSPaint on a parchment style digital map so I don't have to print a new map for every alt.

 

[Jezzascmezza]

I guess this just proves how different we all are when it comes to enjoying different aspects of games, because I for one can't freaking stand getting lost in games. I will admit that perhaps Skyrim may be a LITTLE bit too hand-holding, but for me, I'd much rather "have my hand held" then wander around a dark cave for hours trying to work out where to go.

 

[Vegosiux]

Is it too much to ask to ask for a challenge in the exploration, because god knows I've managed to break everything else to make even Master difficulty a sunday stroll.

You broke it, you bought it.

I really don't get it when people actively work to break the game then complain it's broken.

 

[Nannernade]

if you want a challenge, turn off the arrow and forbid the use of your map and fast travel, problem solved.

 

[WaysideMaze]

I'm in 2 minds about this. I loved morrowind, and getting lost was part of that charm. However, these days I just don't have the free time for gaming that I used to, and so I appreciate skyrims more focused style. I feel like I can get more done and see more than I otherwise could.

 

[Azure-Supernova]

Is it too much to ask to ask for a challenge in the exploration, because god knows I've managed to break everything else to make even Master difficulty a sunday stroll.

You broke it, you bought it.

I really don't get it when people actively work to break the game then complain it's broken.

So what, I'm expected to purposely level skills that I won't be using just so I can create artificial difficulty? Skyrim's entire levelling system is based on getting better at the things you do. So I mostly used One Handed, Blocking, Heavy Armour, Smithing and Enchanting. By the time I'm getting around to main quests from doing the side quests and just generally exploring the land: I'm decked out in the finest craftable gear upgraded to its fullest potential; I've got all but a few of the available enchantments; I've got enough Stamina and Health to hold out an assault from any number of things and my power attacks do suck great criticals that I'm one or two shotting most things.

I didn't actively seek to break the game, I did it just by playing it. Alternately I could have completely porked myself with a giant's club and just chosen to power level Two Handed, Blocking, Light Armour, Restoration, and Alchemy. I'd be the same level but now I'd just be completely nerfed in terms of one handed, armour and armour quality.

I'm not even a hardcore RPG player. I played as the developers intended and I'm now an unstoppable juggernaut. That's almost as bad as being a nerfed, unefficient leveler in Oblivion.

if you want a challenge, turn off the arrow and forbid the use of your map and fast travel, problem solved.

Again, not an option. Removing the arrow is all fine, but then how do I know where I'm going? Unless the objective of my quest has already been pointed out (like say Bleakfalls Barrow is on the way to Riverwood) or discovered on my own through exploration, Location X could in any one of the hundreds of locations on my map, which I don't oppose to using. The map can help with immersion if an NPC states in dialoge that they might know whereabouts the location and will mark it out for you. Great I can totally buy that. What I can't buy is an NPC telling me I need to go to Thunderball's Cave to find his lost battle axe, then the marker immediately pointing me at the cave despite me never having discovered it nor anyone ever indicating its whereabouts.

As for fast travel, I don't. However I really like the mechanic provided by the carriagesand I will use them if I need to be get to a major city.