I despise the very concept of superheroes

[Johnny Novgorod]

There're so many timelines and alternate continuities I could never bother to get invested in these supposed "character developments". The way I see it comic book artists pick up any mutant bloke who is defined by that one power and make them do whatever they want. So anybody anywhere anytime can be good, or evil, or angry, or cool, and it doesn't make any difference because they're following whatever continuity. All that matters is that Scott's eyes go pewpew and Logan's hands go snicksnick.

That's why I only occasionally buy the trade paperbacks and view each as their own story, but just because you don't want to acknowledge character growth that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Incidentally, they have editors there to stop what you described from happening.

It still happens though, doesn't it? Wasn't there a thread a few weeks ago about a new timeline in which Doc Ock takes control of Spiderman's brain and erases him for good? Or that Injustice game where Superman becomes evil and kills Lois in a different timeline?

 

[Racecarlock]

How can works of fiction that exist primarily to celebrate the innate superiority of one group of persons over the rest of humanity be so popular?

Because nobody wants to fantasize about being a 9 to 5 accountant or cancer patient. You can sympathize with those people, but you probably don't want to be them.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

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I'm honestly curious about this too, I distinctly remember most Shounen manga being harsh on characters with quirky power sets. Even the magical girl and giant robot series tend to give a hard time to characters with unconventional powers/mechs.

Although given his one example is JoJo's Bizarre adventure, I don't know how much faith I have in his interpretation. That series was pretty much centered around bizarre powers being used in fights so its a poor representation of attitudes in manga and anime in general.

And there you have it, the reason why I don't even want to give a concrete answer. It won't convince anyone, ever.

Your one example is a series dedicated to showcasing bizarre powers and weird fights. Its like me making the reverse statement about Eastern Series and using the Hitman comics as my one example (i.e. a western series based around a team of heroes with bizarre or no powers at all). It undermines my point more than it helps it.

You have to admit though that within the established powers, they rarely go crazy with it. Toaru Majutsu no Index has the same basic powers (and one OP to the point of god) but in a different light.

Green Lantern can create energy constructs, Kakine Teitoku can create a matter capable of warping the laws of reality and even reenacting past event in locations

Static can drain electricity and fly with the aid of a disc, Misaka Mikoto can fly using only electrolysis of water, create a railgun out of an arcade token, hack electronics, and create a sensory field around her.

and then we have Accelerator who can use vector manipulation to rewrite human neurology, create plasma out of thin air, and even slow the earth down by five minitues to use the energy in a punch.

So yeah, nonstandard powers may be eliminated quickly but the established powers are taken to extremes

 

[spartan231490]

Oh, you think all people are born equal, that's so cute . . .

 

[Warachia]

There're so many timelines and alternate continuities I could never bother to get invested in these supposed "character developments". The way I see it comic book artists pick up any mutant bloke who is defined by that one power and make them do whatever they want. So anybody anywhere anytime can be good, or evil, or angry, or cool, and it doesn't make any difference because they're following whatever continuity. All that matters is that Scott's eyes go pewpew and Logan's hands go snicksnick.

That's why I only occasionally buy the trade paperbacks and view each as their own story, but just because you don't want to acknowledge character growth that doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Incidentally, they have editors there to stop what you described from happening.

It still happens though, doesn't it? Wasn't there a thread a few weeks ago about a new timeline in which Doc Ock takes control of Spiderman's brain and erases him for good? Or that Injustice game where Superman becomes evil and kills Lois in a different timeline?

That's part of a story, not a character inconsistency, a character inconsistency is when a comic book writer picks any character and has them act however they want, a comic story is when you have setup to an event, the event, then the fallout of the event.

 

[SwagLordYoloson]

Technically Ironman is not 'normal' either as he was genetically modified before birth. So you really only fall back to Batman in your super heros that you respect. Well in the current canon at least.

 

[EternallyBored]

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You have to admit though that within the established powers, they rarely go crazy with it. Toaru Majutsu no Index has the same basic powers (and one OP to the point of god) but in a different light.

Green Lantern can create energy constructs, Kakine Teitoku can create a matter capable of warping the laws of reality and even reenacting past event in locations

Static can drain electricity and fly with the aid of a disc, Misaka Mikoto can fly using only electrolysis of water, create a railgun out of an arcade token, hack electronics, and create a sensory field around her.

and then we have Accelerator who can use vector manipulation to rewrite human neurology, create plasma out of thin air, and even slow the earth down by five minitues to use the energy in a punch.

So yeah, nonstandard powers may be eliminated quickly but the established powers are taken to extremes

Er no sorry, pretty much all of those powers have been demonstrated in Western Heroes with similar power sets as well, you've just cherry picked your comparisons. Although I do have to give props on your comparison picks because those are probably some of my favorite characters from the series, Misaka's railgun is just a completely awesome move that looks stunning in the anime itself.

But unfortunately now I'm going to have to burst your bubble on some of these.

First up, in response to Misaka we've got extremis level Iron man with a body infested by superadaptable alien nanomachines that give him the ability to form various armors at will, hack pretty much any electronics he wants to, power blasts and makeshift weapons out the wazoo, and the nanomachines once possessed him and shapeshifted him into one of his female opponents (yeah its just as weird as it sounds). Speaking of sensory fields technically Storm from the X-men did it first and pretty much in the same way, doesn't make Misaka's abilities any less cool though.

As for your description of Accelerator, you pretty much just described Magneto at the height of his power level (he's since been toned down a lot). Lesse here:
Mind Control, oh yeah hes done that by manipulating neurochemistry
Create Plasma, yeah hes done that before too (they kind of played fast and loose with his magnetism powers and what they entailed in the 90's and early 2000's)
Slow the earth down, yeah that too in fact by the end he could pretty much destroy Earth on a whim, but like many super villains, he doesn't out of his own sense of megalomania (and author fiat)
As a bonus Magneto could also accelerate giant hunks of metal to near light speed, which is how he "killed" Kitty Pryde once by trapping her out of phase body in a big asteroid and launching it to the other side of the galaxy.

As for Mr. Teitoku, honestly any reality warper worth his salt can pretty much do the same thing and there are dozens of them across both the Marvel and DC verses. Odin is one and he can reach galaxy busting levels with his reality warping power, (yeah not many people realize that Thor's father is pretty much right below omnipotent beings on the Marvel power scale.) On a more local scale, Scarlet Witch pretty much has that powerset to a T and even rewrote all of reality once without realizing it (which might actually make her closer to Haruhi Suzumiya in powerset.)

Honestly I don't know why, but it seems anime and manga fans that don't follow the western series, have this view of them as being stodgy and conservative compared to the wacky free-spiritedness of anime and manga, I guess it's kind of true if you only follow the cartoon and movie series as they tend to cut out the weirder stuff, but seriously Western comics has given us plenty of bat-shit crazy stuff, like Superman's ice breath giving him super ventriloquism powers, or Squirrel girl defeating Doctor Doom by sneaking an army of squirrels into his armor, or the Flash being able to destroy the planet or time travel just by vibrating himself fast enough (no batteries required).

Like I said though, none of these things really detracts from the great powers and abilities that do pop up in anime, I'm mostly just loathe to declare a winner when both sides tend to go completely off their fucking rockers from time to time.

 

[Izanagi009_v1legacy]

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You have to admit though that within the established powers, they rarely go crazy with it. Toaru Majutsu no Index has the same basic powers (and one OP to the point of god) but in a different light.

Green Lantern can create energy constructs, Kakine Teitoku can create a matter capable of warping the laws of reality and even reenacting past event in locations

Static can drain electricity and fly with the aid of a disc, Misaka Mikoto can fly using only electrolysis of water, create a railgun out of an arcade token, hack electronics, and create a sensory field around her.

and then we have Accelerator who can use vector manipulation to rewrite human neurology, create plasma out of thin air, and even slow the earth down by five minitues to use the energy in a punch.

So yeah, nonstandard powers may be eliminated quickly but the established powers are taken to extremes

Er no sorry, pretty much all of those powers have been demonstrated in Western Heroes with similar power sets as well, you've just cherry picked your comparisons. Although I do have to give props on your comparison picks because those are probably some of my favorite characters from the series, Misaka's railgun is just a completely awesome move that looks stunning in the anime itself.

But unfortunately now I'm going to have to burst your bubble on some of these.

First up, in response to Misaka we've got extremis level Iron man with a body infested by superadaptable alien nanomachines that give him the ability to form various armors at will, hack pretty much any electronics he wants to, power blasts and makeshift weapons out the wazoo, and the nanomachines once possessed him and shapeshifted him into one of his female opponents (yeah its just as weird as it sounds). Speaking of sensory fields technically Storm from the X-men did it first and pretty much in the same way, doesn't make Misaka's abilities any less cool though.

As for your description of Accelerator, you pretty much just described Magneto at the height of his power level (he's since been toned down a lot). Lesse here:
Mind Control, oh yeah hes done that by manipulating neurochemistry
Create Plasma, yeah hes done that before too (they kind of played fast and loose with his magnetism powers and what they entailed in the 90's and early 2000's)
Slow the earth down, yeah that too in fact by the end he could pretty much destroy Earth on a whim, but like many super villains, he doesn't out of his own sense of megalomania (and author fiat)
As a bonus Magneto could also accelerate giant hunks of metal to near light speed, which is how he "killed" Kitty Pryde once by trapping her out of phase body in a big asteroid and launching it to the other side of the galaxy.

As for Mr. Teitoku, honestly any reality warper worth his salt can pretty much do the same thing and there are dozens of them across both the Marvel and DC verses. Odin is one and he can reach galaxy busting levels with his reality warping power, (yeah not many people realize that Thor's father is pretty much right below omnipotent beings on the Marvel power scale.) On a more local scale, Scarlet Witch pretty much has that powerset to a T and even rewrote all of reality once without realizing it (which might actually make her closer to Haruhi Suzumiya in powerset.)

Honestly I don't know why, but it seems anime and manga fans that don't follow the western series, have this view of them as being stodgy and conservative compared to the wacky free-spiritedness of anime and manga, I guess it's kind of true if you only follow the cartoon and movie series as they tend to cut out the weirder stuff, but seriously Western comics has given us plenty of bat-shit crazy stuff, like Superman's ice breath giving him super ventriloquism powers, or Squirrel girl defeating Doctor Doom by sneaking an army of squirrels into his armor, or the Flash being able to destroy the planet or time travel just by vibrating himself fast enough (no batteries required).

Like I said though, none of these things really detracts from the great powers and abilities that do pop up in anime, I'm mostly just loathe to declare a winner when both sides tend to go completely off their fucking rockers from time to time.

truth be told, i don't actually read many DC or Marvel comics so my knowledge of their abilities is limited

Thanks actually for helping me get rid of that misconception

Edit: actually, this begs the question, why is it that anime can display this type of over-the-top crazy but western cartoons and movies seem to hold back?

Also have you been reading New Testament? this whole GRIMLIN, Othinus and Gungnir thing is going to probably end in something worst than WWIII

 

[michael87cn]

When one looks at superhero franchises like Superman and X-Men, or fantasy works like Harry Potter, the common characteristic is the existence of a super-human class with genetic and innate traits that make them superior to regular humans. In all of these works of fiction, humans are at the complete mercy of these Ubermensch to save us because we are too weak to do it ourselves. And what's more, human attempts to level the playing field with technology are generally rendered ineffective because most superheroes and supervillains are conveniently immune to human weapons.

How can works of fiction that exist primarily to celebrate the innate superiority of one group of persons over the rest of humanity be so popular? What does this say about us? In the 19th century, some intellectuals subscribed to the flawed theory that the bulk of human progress could be attributed to the efforts a small number of "super men" through history. This worldview is related to eugenics, Social Darwinism, Randian thought, and all kinds of other superiority theories. I don't consider that crap to be much different than superhero worship.

There are no super men. Although there have been standout examples of great people through history, all of them were assisted in innumerable ways by other people. Human progress is the product of human collaboration, and not the product of a few.

The only superheroes I can abide are those who gain their powers through technology, such as Batman and Ironman. Screw Superman.

- A proud Muggle and Non-Mutant

Harry Potter was no super man.

Also, FICTION.

See also: not real.

See also: fantasy.

See also: imagination, dream, wish, etc.

Say what you want about the collective power of man, but there is a far greater collective of evil in mankind, and that's where the idea of a hero comes from. The evil in this world far outweigh the good. Again, it's not real, so I really think it a bit silly to despise.

 

[EternallyBored]

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truth be told, i don't actually read many DC or Marvel comics so my knowledge of their abilities is limited

Thanks actually for helping me get rid of that misconception

Edit: actually, this begs the question, why is it that anime can display this type of over-the-top crazy but western cartoons and movies seem to hold back?

Also have you been reading New Testament? this whole GRIMLIN, Othinus and Gungnir thing is going to probably end in something worst than WWIII

That is actually an interesting question, and unfortunately one with an answer complicated enough you could write a book on it. There's a little bit of the whole Hollywood/ American "broadening the appeal for overseas markets". Japanese anime is pretty much made for Japanese consumption, and if it's a hit overseas then that's just considered a bonus prize. By contrast, American media is often made for consumption by as many countries and populations as the producers think they can get away with. This generally means we see simple stories that can be easily translated to audiences in America, China, Europe, South America, Etc. A much as we in the geekier communities may decry the practice as watering down popular media, there is no denying it works, the overseas market is booming and often makes studios a massive profit on movies that bomb inside the U.S.

The larger and much more complicated reason has to do with Western comic book continuity and intellectual property. On one end, the Western comic book publishers are obsessed with maintaining continuity and both DC and Marvel have taken their own path to maintaining it. Once the canon continuity becomes convoluted enough, (and it will due to hundreds of superheroes and events all taking place on the same planet, it will happen eventually.) A reboot becomes necessary. DC tends to favor crisis and crossover events that essentially reset the universe to an earlier state (just taking place in a later time period so characters like Batman will always be just coming onto the scene within the last few years.) Marvel tends to just compress the time line so everything is set within about 10 years of most superheroes origin stories within the setting. The problem with both of these methods is that the timeline becomes a giant convoluted mess (which is part of the reason DC did a massive reboot a few years ago with the new 52.) This means you end up just telling the origin stories over and over again when you adapt it to film or T.V. which basically constantly takes you back to basics over and over again.

Another stumbling block for adapting superhero stories from comics to T.V. is the dreaded syndication mark, and the death knell it signals for so many Western cartoons. I'll explain the basic premise for this, basically once a T.V. show hits about 65 episodes it is considered for syndication, meaning that a network can get away with playing reruns to fills time slots without hitting repeats. For children's cartoons, so many are cancelled right at the syndication mark,to make room for new shows and merchandizing. While Eastern media can run Shounen anime for multiple hundreds of episodes, a western kids cartoon is considered exceptional if it makes it past its 65 episode death sentence. To give you an idea of how much syndication fucks over longevity for so many cartoons, allow me to explain to you the strange case of the current incarnation of My Little Pony. The fact that a merchandise driven girl targeted (and this is important because for girl focused merchandizing cartoons, the syndication death mark may as well be a law of nature)cartoon show has somehow made it past the 65 episode mark and may even break the 100 episode mark could very well count as a minor miracle, or a sign of the apocalypse. I could go on listing reasons for hours but I think this covers a couple of the major ones at least.

As a final note I haven't made it that far in the series yet, but from what my friends have told me, I am digging the direction they are going with GREMLINs whole Norse motif.

 

[luvd1]

Are you Lex Luther?
Reading your rant makes me want to read me some marshal law by Pat Mills and Kevin O'Neal. Oh lovely

 

[CriticalMiss]

Cyclops is cool, cuz... Uhm... We'll skip that one.

Cyclops is cool because he knows the X-Men. We don't.

 

[Erttheking]

You're over thinking it. The writers of Mass Effect didn't put in biotics because they were trying to write a propaganda story about the superiority of people with powers, they put it in because people in the future with powers like that is freaking awesome. Same with super heroes. Yeah I suppose a rich man who made his money off of weapons trying to make amends for his past doesn't need a suit of power armor but...the power armor is just more awesome.

 

[chocolate pickles]

I think you should read Watchmen. Without trying to spoil anything, it showed how the most powerful 'superhero' in the world could fail miserably to advert situations that a intelligent and dedicated humanbeing could.

 

[WanderingFool]

I kind of agree with you, but that's probably because I'm more of a fan of how japan does things.

... Y'mean Super Robot and Super Sentai? I'm having trouble parsing the meaningful differences here.

Im throwing my 2 cents in despite the fact this may have already ben answered.

For the Super Sentai, if anything similur to the plot of Power Rangers (which is based off of said shows) than its not that the rangers/Sentai are superior to the rest of humans, but where chosen to take up the mantle of defender and made the sacrifice to do so... also we're not talking about terrorists, crimelords, and rapists, we're talking about interdemensional terrors that launch giant monsters at us...

Which leads into the next point. Giant Robots.

I present this:


That is all...

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/?id=2012#comic

"How can works of fiction that exist primarily to celebrate the innate superiority of one group of persons over the rest of humanity be so popular?"

Because people don't care? Seriously, everything you just mentioned most people couldn't care less about (that includes me btw). You might find it distracting, other people don't.

 

[Kittyhawk]

Can't say I'm a great fan of superhero stuff the way to reigns over the comic book industry. From a wider perspective, I think you need to take a look at heroes, the origin of them and why we as people rally around them.

IMO, people rally around them, even from ancient times, because many realize the fact that regular people have little to no power. Many will never be what they dream (if they dream at all) and are destined to live a humble existence, from cradle to grave.

Ancient gods were once the superheroes of people. An ideal to strive for, hold aloft, worship and admire. In something like the Man of Steel movie, that is something pushed forward. While that's a nice fantasy, the reality of heroes is different. I'd class the likes of Assange or Snowden as heroes, for while the powers that be will rally for their elite club of influence and power, their struggle highlights just how powerless people have allowed themselves to become.

We are spied upon, but its all excused because fighting terrorism etc are nice fitting excuses. Just what is the regular man in the street supposed to do to stuff like that. The only real thing that empowers the individual is the internet. It may not always work, but its all we have against the other weapons we've sacrificed in peace time.

Back to superhero comic stuff, the genre is the bane of the comics industry (as much as it is a blessing, we've seen some cool movies from them). In their infancy, they were a good thing for escapism, but these days with shrinking audiences and limited control to keep them alive forever, its like a pandering circle jerk party of capes and tights. I'm very glad that the rise of Image and creators like Robert Kirkman have found their places in the world, to push back against the corporate led superhero spiel. Don't get me wrong, not all superhero stuff is bad, but the best way for any industry to grow and thrive is for new ideas, tales etc to be produced by individuals, not large corporations, looking to line the coffers and boost their share price, over creating something cool to consume. Because of the huge penetration of superhero books, many good non-superhero works fall by the wayside and the audience will never grow enough.

Lastly, a hero need not have fantasy powers, as there are other qualities that can distinguish a person to be heroic. Some might consider doctors, firemen and anyone else that puts their life on the line are heroic.

 

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

You do realise that the whole 'superheroes are the superior ubermensch' shtick has been going on ever since the dawn of recorded history?

The Epic of Gilgamesh, one of the earliest surviving works of literature whose titular caharcter is two-thirds god and one-third man.

This isn't some recent shift, it has existed for millennia.

 

[william12123]

Ok, I dont know if anyone has mentionned this (this is a very long thread) but the manga "onepunch-man" is a good deconstruction of the notion of superheroes. It's a particularly absurd little manga, contrasting a completely bored main character (onepunch-man) who somehow gained, through tremendous training, the power to defeat any enemy with one punch. And now life bores him.

But I think the popularity thing is just a "we want to be superheroes". We are, by and large, insecure creatures, which means we enjoy projecting ourselves into situations of being "super". Most people would rather dream about having tremendous power than about the "normality" of life. Nobody daydreams about doing the dishes. If you're secure in your normality, great, but most people want to become ubermensch in some form or another.

 

[Angie7F]

I am a anime manga follower and not so educated in the marvel super hero side of things.
Either way I look at it, if the world was only allowed to make stories about real people it would be too boring.
Greek mythology and many religions will be wrong too if you were not allowed to write about superior races