I don't understand tipping culture...

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Snip

Actually, it's circular logic. Lil devils x's logic is, these states don't support Unions, therefore there is no reason to try to get them to support Unions in the future, therefore these states don't support Unions, therefore there is not reason to... need I go on?

Actually, that's a straw man. His logic is unions need support from the average person for tactics like strikes to be effective or even feasible. In these states, there is no support for unions -- in fact, people actively dislike and try to destroy unions, and the law is unfortunately on the side of the union busters. Therefore forming a union and going on strike is not usually the best idea under those circumstances.

It would be great if unions were strong and strikes were possible. But there's going to have to be some changes to the law before that can happen, let alone public opinion.

 

[Malfy]

I generally tip out of paranoia: If I like the restaurant enough to visit again, I don't want the moniker of being a shitty tipper: I believe the staff will go the extra mile to making sure you have bad service if they remember you for notoriously being a bad tipper. Same deal with delivery people, who I like more since they're saving me the trouble of going out. But it is odd that no one in a fast food joint expects to give or get tips for essentially performing the same tasks.

I don't believe in tipping to "help them survive": There's a lot of people out there struggling with finances, not just waiters and waitresses. It's also interesting that in certain countries, trying to tip someone is considered an insult, insinuating that you believe you're better than the person that's serving you. I won't lambast anyone that doesn't believe in tipping, just watch out for your next meal in that restaurant if they remember your face.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

It isn't a strawman. I'm not arguing that he's wrong about Unions needing support, I'm arguing that he's not even willing to admit that getting that support not only more than POSSIBLE, it's already happened countless times, and I never did. His arguments as to why he says is needed will not soon if ever happen is what is the circular logic.

What you said is circular logic again. Unions aren't possible, therefore there's no reason to try and make it possible in the future, therefore Unions aren't possible...

You see the problem here? It's hard to do anything about anything when everybody's opinion is that the goal is impossible from the outset, especially since that opinion in any context is CAUSED BY ITSELF. If nobody is even willing to try to change them then the laws and public opinion won't EVER change. "It would be great if..." Yeah, it would, but if nobody cares to try then that will never be anything but a hypothetical.

The actual work being done by servers in the first place sucks already really really bad. They do not have this job because they can go get other jobs, they have this job because they are already desperate. They clean up urine, feces, vomit, have people treat them as sub human dropping items on the floor just for them to pick up, they are looked down upon by society as being servants, they burn themselves on hot plates and are on their feet all day on hard concrete floors. This is not some desirable profession, this is the job people take as a last resort when they can find no other work. Have you ever been a server, having people treat you like dog shit all day and demean and belittle you? Who the hell would take this job by choice?!

Who would ever be a server by choice? My mother for one, because she liked being in a job that allowed her to socialize a lot, in fact she only stopped because she became unable to physically do the job anymore. Your argument falls flat because being a server isn't the only demeaning menial job out there, one that people take out of desperation or because they just want to make a few bucks for a short while and move on that have also managed to get Unions and strikes and so forth to work. Most fast food jobs are an example of just such jobs. and as I showed a link for before have taken measures to get their wages increased. That's just one example, there are plenty more, google it. In fact, most menial jobs were demeaning, stressful, physically exhausting and even dangerous that paid barely livable (if that) wages like that at some point in the history of this country, but after (do I really have to say it takes time, effort, and sacrifice over and over again?} they got better wages, and now work in less stressful and safer conditions. Why is it wrong to refuse to pity servers for being in a situation they are largely responsible for being in to begin with and refuse to do anything about? Why is it wrong to refuse to support this screwed up system continuing?

What you are proposing here is that instead of having the last resort job as an option to survive, they not survive at all. Please show me all these jobs available for these people to take so they don't starve in the meantime? Taking away that last resort job as an option only ensures they will not survive, not that they will go get another job. Those " other jobs" are already taken.

Your analogy is false because they do not have other options to begin with.

What I am proposing is that these servers actually start taking steps to ensure that the screwed up system that got them into this situation to begin with ends, and for the customers to stop supporting that system by tipping so that these people have motivation to do so. Also, in most cases there's plenty of other "last resort" jobs they could take instead that don't need tips to be livable, and those few that don't other options might just have to suffer for the good of the whole.

 

[Owyn_Merrilin]

Snip

It isn't a strawman. I'm not arguing that he's wrong about Unions needing support, I'm arguing that he's not even willing to admit that getting that support not only more than POSSIBLE, it's already happened countless times, and I never did. His arguments as to why he says is needed will not soon if ever happen is what is the circular logic.

What you said is circular logic again. Unions aren't possible, therefore there's no reason to try and make it possible in the future, therefore Unions aren't possible...

You see the problem here? It's hard to do anything about anything when everybody's opinion is that the goal is impossible from the outset, especially since that opinion in any context is CAUSED BY ITSELF. If nobody is even willing to try to change them then the laws and public opinion won't EVER change. "It would be great if..." Yeah, it would, but if nobody cares to try then that will never be anything but a hypothetical.

The actual work being done by servers in the first place sucks already really really bad. They do not have this job because they can go get other jobs, they have this job because they are already desperate. They clean up urine, feces, vomit, have people treat them as sub human dropping items on the floor just for them to pick up, they are looked down upon by society as being servants, they burn themselves on hot plates and are on their feet all day on hard concrete floors. This is not some desirable profession, this is the job people take as a last resort when they can find no other work. Have you ever been a server, having people treat you like dog shit all day and demean and belittle you? Who the hell would take this job by choice?!

Who would ever be a server by choice? My mother for one, because she liked being in a job that allowed her to socialize a lot, in fact she only stopped because she became unable to physically do the job anymore. Your argument falls flat because being a server isn't the only demeaning menial job out there, one that people take out of desperation or because they just want to make a few bucks for a short while and move on that have also managed to get Unions and strikes and so forth to work. Most fast food jobs are an example of just such jobs. and as I showed a link for before have taken measures to get their wages increased. That's just one example, there are plenty more, google it. In fact, most menial jobs were demeaning, stressful, physically exhausting and even dangerous that paid barely livable (if that) wages like that at some point in the history of this country, but after (do I really have to say it takes time, effort, and sacrifice over and over again?} they got better wages, and now work in less stressful and safer conditions. Why is it wrong to refuse to pity servers for being in a situation they are largely responsible for being in to begin with and refuse to do anything about? Why is it wrong to refuse to support this screwed up system continuing?

What you are proposing here is that instead of having the last resort job as an option to survive, they not survive at all. Please show me all these jobs available for these people to take so they don't starve in the meantime? Taking away that last resort job as an option only ensures they will not survive, not that they will go get another job. Those " other jobs" are already taken.

Your analogy is false because they do not have other options to begin with.

What I am proposing is that these servers actually start taking steps to ensure that the screwed up system that got them into this situation to begin with ends, and for the customers to stop supporting that system by tipping so that these people have motivation to do so. Also, in most cases there's plenty of other "last resort" jobs they could take instead that don't need tips to be livable, and those few that don't other options might just have to suffer for the good of the whole.

You just strawmanned me. You set up a false representation of my argument and knocked it down as circular logic. The argument is not "Unions aren't possible, therefore there's no reason to try and make it possible in the future, therefore Unions aren't possible..." it's "Unions aren't /viable/, therefore we have quite a bit of groundwork to lay before we start founding unions and going on strike. Otherwise the people founding the unions will go from low pay and crappy conditions to no pay and homelessness."

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

I agree, but unfortunately, the way you phrased it last time sounded like circular logic.

 

[TheCommanders]

Way back when I worked at a food stand we had a tip jar. But instead of just splitting it, we'd play cards at the end of the day, and winner took all. I got most of the tips that summer

OT- It's pretty much been said already. In America, tipping is more of actually ensuring that the people serving you are getting paid anything resembling a decent wage, rather than a courtesy. Not sure what it is like elsewhere.

 

[Pessimismus]

I never quite got that as well, especially considering how (supposedly) a lot of businesses already add a tip to the bill itself.

Now it's very different in the Netherlands and tipping isn't really a forced thing in our culture. As far as I'm aware people mainly tip here if they felt the people working there earned it. I personally always tip at least a little bit if I don't forget to do so, especially at my favourite coffee place.

 

[DarkRyter]

Let me see if I can hammer this rather obvious point into you. If servers have tips, they get just enough money to live off of and thus coast by on them. You in fact give me the ammo I need for this point. You are right, without tips then servers would start going hungry, losing their homes and so forth. So, logically, if tips were to stop, servers in droves would quit their jobs to work at other places, strike, form Unions and whatever else they needed to get to get their wages up. As a result, the service industry would have to concede to their demands to be able to continue functioning. By giving servers tips you ensure that they have no reason whatsoever to do anything. If you can't understand this very basic logic, then there's no reason I should continue arguing with you.

If servers have tips, they get just enough money to live off of and thus coast by on them.

If servers have wages, they get just enough money to live off of and thus coast by on them.

You have the mistaken perception that servers with flat wages make MORE than servers with tip based income.

 

[thethird0611]

I know in Texas at least, if you are expected to make tips, the actual establishment that you work for can pay you as low as 1.60 an hour. Which they usually end up spending towards a "employee meal" each shift, insurance, or some other kind of bullshit scam.

I tip 20%, cash where able. So that they don't get fucked over by the taxman too.
Even if the service is shitty, I can't bring myself to not tip. (I end up tipping 5-10% instead of my usual 20) Because I can't bring myself to leave them hanging.

Please, if your going to make a statement that you 'think' is true, please say that.

Minimum cash wage for a tip salary employee in Texas: $2.13
Maximum Tip Credit Against Minimum Wage: $5.12 (Which means the employee must make 5.12 in tips, or the employeer has to cover the cost).
Basic combined minimum wage: $7.25 (The wage that a tip dependent employee must have).

Thank you for tipping 20% to servers though. I used to shift manage a restaurant that had drivers working for tips, and that kind of tip made them happy.

 

[immortalfrieza]

Snip

No, you have the mistaken perception that people are better off with a unreliable wage. By getting a flat wage, Servers would get a sure wage, one they can effectively rely on instead of having to live off something as sporadic as tips. If they succeed in demanding better wages, they will have the grounds to continue to raise them further, as well trying to get other benefits.

 

[WanderingBiscuits]

We don't tip over here. Its really more of an american custom i've noticed. I don't really believe in doing it unless the service is done well and in a polite manner. I'd be inclined to be more forgiving of an agitated employee if its later in the day, but if i have an overly relaxed waiter/waitress who seems like they want to bolt out the door as soon as work is over, they are not getting a tip. Its a fair way of doing things and i think it gives more incentive to perform better in their job. I get that people need that money due to low wage, However if you aren't going to do the job properly then there is no reason to give you a reward. Thats the way i see it. I expect servers to be polite, friendly and punctual. That isn't a lot to ask.

 

[DarkRyter]

Snip

No, you have the mistaken perception that people are better off with a unreliable wage. By getting a flat wage, Servers would get a sure wage, one they can effectively rely on instead of having to live off something as sporadic as tips. If they succeed in demanding better wages, they will have the grounds to continue to raise them further, as well trying to get other benefits.

Tips aren't sporadic, though. Waiters near universally fare far better than flat wage jobs requiring similar skill, effort, and training. If a waiter isn't making enough, it's a sign of a bad position, such as the restaurant's not doing enough business or the server themselves is particularly bad.

Not to mention the tax advantages to tip income. Most waiters I know don't report cash tips, which is a huge benefit. If a waiter reports tips that, when combined with their normal 2 dollar hourly wage, fall under the legal minimum wage, the employer is legally obliged to cover the difference.

Waiters don't make THAT much, but in no way is the job a travesty of worker's rights. Changing to a flat wage won't improve their system and would more than likely worsen the situation for everyone involved.

If you believe your waiter should be paid more than they're already making, tip above 20% and tell everyone you know to tip above 20%.

 

[DarkRyter]

We don't tip over here. Its really more of an american custom i've noticed. I don't really believe in doing it unless the service is done well and in a polite manner. I'd be inclined to be more forgiving of an agitated employee if its later in the day, but if i have an overly relaxed waiter/waitress who seems like they want to bolt out the door as soon as work is over, they are not getting a tip. Its a fair way of doing things and i think it gives more incentive to perform better in their job. I get that people need that money due to low wage, However if you aren't going to do the job properly then there is no reason to give you a reward. Thats the way i see it. I expect servers to be polite, friendly and punctual. That isn't a lot to ask.

That's probably fine over where you live. They likely charge the cost of service into the bill itself.

If you ever visit the States, though, that is not the case. A tip isn't considered a "reward" as it is a paying for the service received. If a tip isn't given, the waiter didn't make any money for their service.

 

[Shynobee]

United States, you are expected to tip at every sit down restaurant, with 15% of the bill being the average amount. Tipping more if you felt the service was exceptional in some way, or less if you felt the service was sub par.

I feel that you just assume your meal will cost 15% more at any restaurant with a wait-staff. Its just an assumed thing, and I don't get the problem with it.

 

[PBMcNair]

If a waiter reports tips that, when combined with their normal 2 dollar hourly wage, fall under the legal minimum wage, the employer is legally obliged to cover the difference.

If a tip isn't given, the waiter didn't make any money for their service.

So which of these statements are correct ?

Isn't this whole thing ultimatly circular anyway ? Waiters are paid badly because they're expected to be paid in tips, and people tip because they're payed badly.

 

[2xDouble]

I work in a restaurant where foreign exchange students work with exceptional frequency, and they are always shocked by what a difference tipping makes; in themselves, in the service, in their wages. Instead of bothering to explain, I challenge, nay, dare everyone in this thread saying "tips are stupid, why should I have to pay extra?" to come over here and get a job as a server, just for one summer. I severely doubt your opinion will remain the same.

College humor [http://www.collegehumor.com/article/6897915/the-7-people-youre-always-splitting-the-bill-with] illustrates.

 

[ClockworkPenguin]

Dividing tips among the staff always seemed like bullshit to me: I tipped THIS guy because he did a job, the rest of them didn't earn it.

But But...MUH SOCIALISM!

We should everybody should be paid far amounts on, they all put in time at the restaurant and should be paid accordingly not on how well a customer likes them.

So tip the pretty girl or handsome man that brought you the sandwich, forget the guy in the back who made it then?

MUH CAPITALISM.

OT: I only tip if the service is excellent (Australian).

If it's garbage-average then I don't.

Yeah, that attitude always pissed me off. Mostly because I was a KP. Often on my own even at peak times, processing all the dishes and all the kitchen equipment, and if either gets behind it will affect people's dining experience because the chef's can't cook if you don't have the right pan, and the servers can't take it if there aren't enough plates, and if anything isn't cleaned well enough the restaurant gets a bad rep, and you get a bollocking.

But you don't see what KP's do (except in absentia when they are fucking up) so yeah, fuck those guys.

 

[2xDouble]

If a waiter reports tips that, when combined with their normal 2 dollar hourly wage, fall under the legal minimum wage, the employer is legally obliged to cover the difference.

If a tip isn't given, the waiter didn't make any money for their service.

So which of these statements are correct ?

Isn't this whole thing ultimatly circular anyway ? Waiters are paid badly because they're expected to be paid in tips, and people tip because they're payed badly.

Both, actually. If not tipped, the server doesn't make money for their service. Instead they take money from the overall budget, typically affecting the kitchen (bus staff/dishwashers) or support staff (hosts/maitre d').

Spoiler

Depending on the type and location of the establishment, the former is often not true. It's a ruse told to servers to make them feel better about and more secure in their jobs which, in turn, improves their services and therefore tipping rates as a direct result. But if they know that, it shatters the placebo effect. Hence, the spoilers.

It is circular, but is that different than any other job that works on commission rather than fixed wage? Nobody balks at the sales commission when buying a camera, t-shirt, or vehicle; why do so over food?

 

[SinisterDeath]

Waiters pretty much live off those tips so think of it as helping out another human being in rough times. Anyone who has been a waiter will know that it is very helpful to tip good.

Which makes it quite disgusting when you find the manager of a place pocketing a large percentage of tips taken in before dividing among the staff. :I

Dividing tips among the staff always seemed like bullshit to me: I tipped THIS guy because he did a job, the rest of them didn't earn it.

So, the waitress went back into the kitchen, and cooked that awesome meal?

Or, better yet, you don't tip that waitress because your food tasted like shit, because they obviously prepared it so horribly?

What makes you think that the Waitress/waiter did 'all' of the work, and 'earned' all of that tip in that scenario?
Your answer, is the bull shit one here.

If your waiter/waitress does a good job, tip them. If they don't, just give them less. Its really that simple.
If the food was awesome, but they sucked at service, give them a crappy tip. If the food was crap, but their service was good? Tip them.
If you know the tip is split among staff, Tip accordingly.

http://www.dol.gov/whd/state/tipped.htm

all depends on the state as to minimum wage for servers.
Should be noted however, that some chain restaurants, pay them normal minimum wage, and the business itself, keeps the tips, as they are not 'tipped' workers.
(I believe subway is like this, and I'm pretty sure a lot of others are like that to.)