"I hate..." No wait sorry I must stop you there. You can't use "hate" anymore, it's not PC. ¬_¬

[The Wooster]

"Political Correctness has gone mad. You can't even write racial abuse in human excrement on someone's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat."

 

[gargantual]

I'm starting to lose my patience for the PC crowd these days. It's not that I don't get where they're coming from, but I feel there's a strong need for perspective.

Early on in life I learned a lot of people have it really shitty. My cousin, for example, is paralyzed from the neck down. It's hard not to be sobered at the though of not being able to feed yourself, dress yourself, of bathe yourself among other things you take for granted, but in the grader scheme, just how little agency you'd have in this position for what you can do with your life, and what little you have, needing help to do just about anything. And that doesn't get into the toll caring for such a person can have on their family. Even being called a particularly hateful slur with full malice doesn't quite compare let alone when some of the incidents that have come up in the last year amount to little more than a disrespectful phrase or faux pas.

As a culture, it's like or self worth has become very externalized, and very fragile. We only see worth in ourselves if we're treated well, and any ding to that idea is crippling to the point we're starting to not question if it's worth threatening, or shaming someone into ruin over a few words that hurt our feelings. Life has kicked enough people I know in the teeth for me not to see things in a bigger picture. I have a reasonable healthy and able body. I have food in my belly, a roof over my head, a decent job, and friends and family that are there for me when I need them whereas a lot of people don't. I'm even well enough off to have a lot of tech toys. If the worst thing that's happening to me is being called a rude slur, I'm still a very lucky guy doing fairly well. It can't take anything away from me unless I let it.

Others, well, it seems that we have a growing number of fragile egos out there incapable of counting their blessings instead of their gripes. Politeness becomes a cover for our insecurities about ourselves and our inability to deal with them. THe older I get, the more I have trouble not hearing anything but spoiled brats.

A) Appeal to Worse Problems: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/AppealToWorseProblems
B) Like many people who've lived past the age of 30, I've encountered my share of tragedy and adversity. It actually made me a more compassionate, patient person, as opposed to a less compassionate, less patient person.
C) Politeness has nothing to do with "insecurity". Quite the opposite.
D) You hear a lot of spoiled brats? I hear a lot of assholes desperately rationalizing their desire to continue being assholes, insisting no one can ever censure them for it, and having a sad little tantrum about "the perils of political correctness" every time someone does.

BONUS POINTS - Censure does not mean censor, and anyone who thinks it does will have a pineapple thrown at them.

I still think Redd has a point. its really appreciation for those in one's life that enforces our attitudes of respect. Forums have a right to curtail smut I.E. recent threats to devs and critics, but imagine all areas of social discourse and commercial entertainment enforcing PC at its ultimate ZENITH. Comedy will be very safe and dry EVERYWHERE, and very few would thrive. It'd be so easy to get sued. People won't become respectable through and through. We know modern human society better than that. People will just lie to each other more and more, and use other subtle social glass ceilings, casual soft but still insulting dismissals, vitriol and venom hidden behind 'professional smiles' frivolous lawsuits, and a Taniesha or DeShaun still wouldn't get hired over a Amanda or James even in such a idealized future.

Call me cynical, but there are enough smart-asses, and vultures in the world, encountered on a daily basis of all races shapes, disabilities and sizes. In a welcoming environment a comedy club to blow off some steam or random cs server where people value performance over frat gang, are a few off words or jokes THAT nuclear?!

 

[BloatedGuppy]

...but imagine all areas of social discourse and commercial entertainment enforcing PC at its ultimate ZENITH.

Why would I imagine that? It's a ludicrous, slippery slope scenario that will never come to pass and isn't even remotely close to being the reality today. There is plenty of lewd, raucous, or obscene entertainment out there. There's occasionally a fitful and ill conceived motion to get this or that censored, but nothing ever really comes of it.

Yet day after day, in this forum and elsewhere, young men are bellowing about how the madness of our politically correct society is ruining their lives. "We won't be able to listen to crazy music or tell crude jokes or watch ribald comedians!" they shout, whilst listening to crazy music and telling crude jokes and watching ribald comedians. "It'll be just like 1984! Why is everyone so sensitive! They just WANT to be offended!".

It's all so very tiring.

 

[Pink Gregory]

"Political Correctness has gone mad. You can't even write racial abuse in human excrement on someone's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat."

"You could get your whole family, and you could jump in a threshing machine, and dance around. And all your arms would fly off, and it was fine! And now they're going, oh, they've banned Christmas; they've banned Christmas now."

 

[gargantual]

...but imagine all areas of social discourse and commercial entertainment enforcing PC at its ultimate ZENITH.

Why would I imagine that? It's a ludicrous, slippery slope scenario that will never come to pass and isn't even remotely close to being the reality today. There is plenty of lewd, raucous, or obscene entertainment out there. There's occasionally a fitful and ill conceived motion to get this or that censored, but nothing ever really comes of it.

Yet day after day, in this forum and elsewhere, young men are bellowing about how the madness of our politically correct society is ruining their lives. "We won't be able to listen to crazy music or tell crude jokes or watch ribald comedians!" they shout, whilst listening to crazy music and telling crude jokes and watching ribald comedians. "It'll be just like 1984! Why is everyone so sensitive! They just WANT to be offended!".

It's all so very tiring.

I think it's worry that in the future such 'crazy music' or 'crude jokes' and ribald comedians would become relics rather than see the same steady stream of output they had since the turn of the 90's. Here it takes arguements and forum wars over insensitivity for folks to hopefully have an honest moment.

In a 'crude' comedy , and crazy entertainment there's at least offerings of brutal honesty that wouldn't be so readily shared in public discourse. Some we may not like but it'd be worse if most folks held their breaths for legal sakes.

and though the example may be too extreme yes, but thats the idea aint it?. Take a social concern and ask what idealized opposite situation can one point to as a goal for society to reach, and what are the pros and cons.

Some misuse their freedom of speech, but in picketing around that ideal I think of stuff like this interview.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aMXzLhbWtmk

 

[MorphingDragon]

I prefer not to use the word hate anyway. It's not a strong enough word.

 

[Parasondox]

I hate when people whinge about the bogeyman of "political correctness" whenever they are confronted by situations where tact, diplomacy, or sensitivity might be called for. They somehow conflate taking three seconds to consider the feelings of others and how their behavior is perceived with a violation of their freedoms and rights.

I also hate turnips.

There are two things you can't stand: intolerance and turnips?

Anyway, I mostly agree, but allow me to be more specific.

I've noticed in many threads and discussion that the word "hate" is seen as something that shouldn't be used cause it's too strong.

That's not "political correctness." That's people being anal about word usage. Here's a fun thing: post a thread on here asking if you're "the only one." People will react worse, in all probability.

I can't say retard because I will offend those who have learning difficulties despite the fact I have never heard anyone use that word to insult them with.

And breath. Don't worry I'm not going to bash your head in or call you whatever, just want to say I appreciate and respect your comments highly. I like discussions and I see your points.

Someone is sending back a kind positive comment over the internet, DON'T PANIC EVERYONE.

Let's be clear, here. You can say retard. It's just you don't like the criticism you get. In effect, you're ranting about the right of free speech not making you immune to criticism. That's absurd.

Also, you've got it backward. The reason retard is an insult is because being mentally handicapped is considered bad. Ergo, you are calling someone something bad. At least understand what you're arguing against.

Calling an Afro-Caribbean person black is now offensive?

What do you mean, "now?" This isn't a new thing. It's been around since longer than either of us. Why act surprised? You might as well say "and people are suddenly using computers?"

Really? Well I'm black an if someone is using that to describe a physical feature then go for it.

You don't speak for everybody else. I'm really, really sorry to break that to you. Now, there is certainly context, and if you're fine with it, that's fine. Hell, I know black people who are fine with their white friends calling them niggers. Or niggas. Or whatever. That doesn't mean that your average black guy will consider it acceptable.

Black people, like most groups, are not a hivemind. Just because it doesn't bother you (someone too young to remember that black was used as a slur, and relatively recently in history, too), doesn't mean it's acceptable to everyone else.

And FFS, you're listed as being from London. It's possible you might miss the social context in which this is an issue.

But, as an American (we do tend to dominate most websites), I've called people black for years with never a single issue. I wonder if this has ever been a major thing for anyone, anywhere.

I will add the whole "******" thing is getting stupid now. Kanye West and Jay-Z can say it all they like but if someone who isn't black uses it, they get offended?

Yeah, it's almost like context makes a difference in our language or something. How about that.

I'd like to add I don't think political correctness is a bad thing because it stops us going back to the Victorian ages way of thinking. Women aren't objects they are human beings, Not liking a person because of their race, culture, and religion is wrong.

And that's a garbage line of reasoning. Sorry, but the reason we're not in a Victorian society has nothing to do with "political correctness." It has to do with fighting for civil rights. And if you think a black dude not wanting to be owned by a white dude on my side of the Atlantic is "political correctness," I have no idea how to respond.

Except maybe with this:

Spoiler

A complaint against Political Correctness is a complaint against a system that allows people to complain. That's it.

Also, a man once said "if you don't like it, then leave it alone."

This thread is the exact opposite of what you were preaching to people just a little while ago.

For some reason mt reply didn't submit the first time.

as i was saying, and breath. I respect and appreciate your comments highly and I like mixing things up and kind of provoking thought. Anyways thank you and yes I am being nice over the internet.

 

[BarbaricGoose]

"Hate is a strong word" does not refer to the fact that it's politically incorrect.

It refers to the fact that it actually used to mean something.

It doesn't anymore.

I wish it did. ;_____;

...

You know what I hate? Things that only mildly inconvenience me.

On topic: I don't really have anything to add that hasn't been said, I'm afraid. Though I tend to feel that people like to say shit like "PC police" just so they can get away with being dickheads. It's been stated more eloquently before, so I'll just leave it at that. Have mercy, mods?

 

[Floppertje]

Well the thing is... words mean things. when the PC crowd bans the f-word on the radio, they're not doing it because the word itself is somehow inherently offensive. Words are just noise with meaning and it's this meaning they find offensive (and sometimes rightly so). When songs have words bleeped out on the radio, it kinda ticks me off, but I do understand that in some cases, people are right to be offended. If some wannabe gangster goes on about fucking hoes and killing niggas, I think people are absolutely right to be offended by that. I don't think it should be censored, but it's sexist and racist (no, the fact that the rapper is black too does NOT make it ok). What gets to me more is when it's done to songs that are not -ist in any way, but use strong language to get a valid point or opinion across. First example that pops to mind: Green Day - Minority. That's about a guy who feels like he doesn't fit in with the mainstream and wants to do things his own way. That's not something to get offended about. (yes, I am very much aware that I'm biased, thank you). Different and less biased example: Sean Kingston - Beautiful girls. I loathe that song. it's annoying, sounds like crap and I could never get away from it at work when it came out. But apparently it was censored on mtv because there word 'suicidal' is in there. Of course that meant that 25% of the song was bleeps, because apparently writing more than 4 lines of lyrics is hard, but I digress. That shouldn't have been censored, it's not offensive at all. just a little whiny.

I get that some things people hear are offensive to them, sometimes they're even right to be offended. But free speech gives people the right to say what they want. it also gives YOU the right to call people out on being an asshole, which you should totally do because being an asshole is totally uncool. PC has gone way too far in trying censor things because they offend their sensibilities. The world isn't here to not-offend you, if you have a problem with someone, call them out on it or ignore them. censoring them only makes them seem like the underdog who is fighting the system instead of the asshole who is a mysoginistic ass.

[/rant]

 

[RedDeadFred]

It's politically incorrect, it's that people tend not to understand the extent of what it means. It is perfectly reasonable to hate things. I hated one of my roommates for a couple of months (he was the worst person I ever lived with and it got to the point where his stench would make me feel sick when he entered the room -he had extremely poor hygiene). I spoke to him recently though and he's cleaned up quite a bit and it's really water under the bridge since it was a few years ago. Anyway, at the time, hate really was an apt word for how I felt about him.

It just bugs me when someone says something like: "I hate people who walk too slow." First of all, if you really truly hate them, please see a psychiatrist. It really isn't hard to use words in a way that properly represents their definition.

 

[suitepee7]

I can't say retard because I will offend those who have learning difficulties despite the fact I have never heard anyone use that word to insult them with.

Er...really? Not even a variant, something with "-tard" on the end? Asstard, conservitard etc?

But yeah, this is very much offensive to people with learning difficulties, that's the whole point.

Really what I am asking is has there been time where POLITICAL CORRECTNESS has just taken things one step too far that we can and can not say anymore in fear of offending anyone. I'd like to add I don't think political correctness is a bad thing because it stops us going back to the Victorian ages way of thinking. I am just saying there are moments where things go too far.

Generally not, people complaining about it are complaining that people think less of them for going round insulting people.

OTOH, there was a case where "Three little pigs" was banned from a school because it would offend Muslims or somesuch. This was notable as it came as a complete surprise to the local Muslim community, they hadn't pushed for this or even been consulted. Someone, deciding to speak for them, had said something they didn't agree with, in a rare example of actual white knighting, rather than straw white knighting of someone who has taken the other side, or bigotry pretending to be something else.

Mind you, there are a lot of those sorts of stories around, but apparently this one was true, not invented by the sorts of newspapers that like to invent this sort of thing.

my girlfriend did an equality and diversity in the workplace course yesterday, and she got told by the guy running it that if you were to sing the nursery rhyme 'ba ba black sheep' you woud now have to say 'ba ba rainbow sheep'... i don't make a big deal of 'its political correctness gone mad', but that is pretty stupid

 

[Parasondox]

I can't say retard because I will offend those who have learning difficulties despite the fact I have never heard anyone use that word to insult them with.

Er...really? Not even a variant, something with "-tard" on the end? Asstard, conservitard etc?

But yeah, this is very much offensive to people with learning difficulties, that's the whole point.

Really what I am asking is has there been time where POLITICAL CORRECTNESS has just taken things one step too far that we can and can not say anymore in fear of offending anyone. I'd like to add I don't think political correctness is a bad thing because it stops us going back to the Victorian ages way of thinking. I am just saying there are moments where things go too far.

Generally not, people complaining about it are complaining that people think less of them for going round insulting people.

OTOH, there was a case where "Three little pigs" was banned from a school because it would offend Muslims or somesuch. This was notable as it came as a complete surprise to the local Muslim community, they hadn't pushed for this or even been consulted. Someone, deciding to speak for them, had said something they didn't agree with, in a rare example of actual white knighting, rather than straw white knighting of someone who has taken the other side, or bigotry pretending to be something else.

Mind you, there are a lot of those sorts of stories around, but apparently this one was true, not invented by the sorts of newspapers that like to invent this sort of thing.

my girlfriend did an equality and diversity in the workplace course yesterday, and she got told by the guy running it that if you were to sing the nursery rhyme 'ba ba black sheep' you woud now have to say 'ba ba rainbow sheep'... i don't make a big deal of 'its political correctness gone mad', but that is pretty stupid

Rainbow Sheep? Are they being serious?

 

[Mr. Eff_v1legacy]

Far as I'm concerned, PC is just a form of censorship. There is a huge difference between using a word like "******" or "retard" offhandedly, and consistently targeting an individual for harassment.

Expression is paramount to freedom, and we must take the good with the bad.

If an individual has a problem with something I say, then they can bring it up with me, person to person. But outside of that interaction, we don't need outside forces (especially the state) enforcing their views of what is "acceptable".

 

[suitepee7]

-snip-

Rainbow Sheep? Are they being serious?

that was my reaction. at first i just laughed, assuming she was taking the piss, but she was actually being serious. apparently you can substitute many adjectives now, such as baa baa little sheep or happy sheep, but when referring to colours you're still meant to use rainbow...

i really just don't get it

 

[Chromatic Aberration]

"Political Correctness has gone mad. You can't even write racial abuse in human excrement on someone's car without the politically correct brigade jumping down your throat."

I'm telling you, it starts by banning certain harmless behaviours like this. But then they'll continue to restrict the use of words until we cannot criticize the government. Then they'll raise our taxes to pay for their socialist schemes arguing that it is necessary. And finally they'll take our guns such that we cannot defend ourselves! And before you realize it, we live in an evil communist dictatorship!!! Wake up Sheeple! Protect our FREEDUMZ!!!!!

OT: The appeal of criticizing "PC" is rather an appeal of "Wahhhhhhhh! WHAT ABOUT ME?!" than anything else. There is no "politically correct" movement or a "politically correct" ideology and there is generally no push to ban you from using words. You may say what you want, the only thing that some groups ask is that you think about it and maybe know that some words are insulting for the members of the group in question or perpetuate prejudice or what have you.

I recall a thread about transgendered people where people started whining because they didn't want to being forced to refer to their gender with "cis" all the time. Well guess what? You don't need to, unless there is a reason to. The male-female classification is perfectly valid in 99% of the cases such that it is perfectly sufficient to use it in everyday conversation unless someone objects to it or you need to have more information. Think about it like a physical model: a simple linear approximation works in most cases unless you work, say, on extremely small scales where you need to take into account more complicated effects. Same goes here.

Generally, context and the implications is what is important not the word itself.

 

[Strazdas]

I hate the fact that people hate things. why cant we have something nice?
Oh and i also hate myself for hating it.

Yeah no, ill use hate when its appropriate. its not the words thats wrong. its the action of hating (for example black people) thats wrong. I cant hate mayonaise. i cant hate niggas. (the term was used intentionally to provide a derogatory example)

too bad.

50 years from now you wont have any feeling one way or the other.
http://media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/f1/b6/01/f1b6014cec980c6bdfbab5d32c68aa4c.jpg

Stop. I see colour orangei n this poster. obviuosly, you are discriminationg agaisnt other colours. Fix this before i call the police!

 

[krazykidd]

Ideally , we wouldn't offend anyone . I'm black and hate being described that way . Especially in the sentence " The black guy .However it's not offensive , it's annoying . There are terms that shouldn't be used , because the word in and of itself has a negative connotation and it's offensive . Like :

Why? If I walked into a room which contained 5 white women, 4 white men and yourself. And I needed to point you out to somebody why wouldn't I say "The black guy"? Its the most obvious way of differentiating who you are.

Flip it around, I wouldn't have a problem with someone saying "The white guy"

Remember , just because it doesn't bother you , doesn't mean it doesn't bother anyone else . Here's a question , would you equally say:
- the fat guy
- the gay guy
-the handicapped (or disabled , i can't remember which is more PC) guy
-etc...

I'm not saying that "black" is offensive , i'm just saying that everytime someone refers to me as the " black guy" i cringe a little . I hate the fact that being black is my defining feature . I had a discussion with a guy on these forums before , if i can find it i'll post his reply because it was very insightful . It's either because i'm too sensitive or because i live in a place where ( passive) racism is very present .

Edit : I found it , i'll just copy paste it here for anyone interested. Here's the thread http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.820952-Is-this-a-kind-of-racism#19825522

I think all this "we can't say that, it's offensive" is just a bunch of white people getting offended for black people. There are clearly racist words that shouldn't be used but I can't think of a reason "black" isn't offensive.

I think it's going to get to a point where we are calling black people "melanin excessive" and white people "melanin deficient", then what do we call brown people? "melanin mediocre"?

I would guess black people are just like "we don't care what you call us, as long as it isn't one of the offensive ones".

I don't mean to speak for black people but it's just the impression I've gotten.

I may be overly sensitive , but i really really dislike being the "black" guy . I dislike being described as black . It annoys me to no end . Because i get the impression of being singled out . I have rarely heard people discribe someone as " the white guy" . It's almost as if being black is a abnormal trait. As if it is what defines me . However i cannot accurately determine why it makes me feel that way . I just get the impression that i'm being judged by my skin color rather than by who i am . And trust me , people have so many stereotypes for black people , that many ( too many ) people think they know what i like and who i am because of my skin color . People assume a lot about me , and when i don't meet their stereotype criteria, they seem surprised , even a little disapointed .

What irks me even more when people REMIND me i'm black , as if i didn't know .

To be perfectly honest , i do get annoyed when people talk about black people and white people , even if it is without animosity . It's almost as if there is a notable difference set in stone( ofher than skin color) . But like i said , i may be overly sensitive . Needless to say , if it was possible for me to change my skin color ( and physical features) i would definately do it .

But I do know what you like. You like Dark Souls, and you like it hard and fun. Though that has nothing to do with your skin color.

I can only imagine that your feelings on the subject come from living in a particularly racist area. I've lived in a few, and many of my black (using the term here as I don't have a more efficient word to describe the difference) friends from that area have feeling similar to you. My black friends from the areas that are less racist, tend to have fewer problems. That may be just a statistical aberration due to small sample sizes though.

Coming from a mixed family I may have a different take on the whole situation than most. I feel as though the only way we will ever get past racist behavior is by accepting our differences and embracing them. If you are culturally more likely to enjoy something (and you do enjoy it), then flaunt it. Don't be embarrassed by it. I know I am not at mine.

Another potential issue I see with the whole "black" word issue is in race racism. Most of my brother's issues with racism have been from other black people, not white (though the few issues with white people he has had have been far more volatile and offensive). If there is self loathing then imagined slights will be seen when they were not intended. Thankfully I am able to say I've seen much less of that lately than I did when I was younger.

P.S. I apologize for any spelling or grammatical mistakes. I am being plagued by a roll over ad blocking half of my reply box preventing me from seeing most of what I am writing.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I think it's worry that in the future such 'crazy music' or 'crude jokes' and ribald comedians would become relics rather than see the same steady stream of output they had since the turn of the 90's.

Historical precedent does not support this scenario. We've been steadily moving AWAY from censorship rather than towards it.

Here it takes arguements and forum wars over insensitivity for folks to hopefully have an honest moment.

In a 'crude' comedy , and crazy entertainment there's at least offerings of brutal honesty that wouldn't be so readily shared in public discourse.

You are overrating "brutal honesty".

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tact

Is a skill. Diplomacy is a skill. Even lying is a skill. You don't need anything to be "brutally honest" except socially tone deaf and/or ignorant. That is not to say we don't all enjoy a bit of comedy where it's like "HAR HAR THAT'S THE SORT OF THING I THINK BUT NEVER SAY!" but there's a fair distance between "brutal honesty" in your entertainment and "brutal honesty" in your minute to minute life because you can't be arsed to not be a dick to people.

and though the example may be too extreme yes, but thats the idea aint it?. Take a social concern and ask what idealized opposite situation can one point to as a goal for society to reach, and what are the pros and cons.

Well, no, that's not the point. It's useless hyperbole and it obfuscates the discussion. Especially since we're presently dealing with a generation who cannot separate the hyperbole in their heads from the reality of their waking lives. They enjoy tremendous social and personal freedom, and yet they believe "THE MAN" is breathing down their neck because once they got told during a forum debate that something they said was insensitive. They believe common courtesy, kindness, and the consideration of others are vile shackles that must be thrown off. They conflate freedom of expression with freedom from consequences, and throw a righteous fit every time their behavior is met with scrutiny or criticism.