I Like My Fighting F**ktoy's

[1Life0Continues]

*sigh*

For the last time: criticism of a work is not criticism of people who like/enjoy that work.

For people who ***** about people who are "too easily offended by sexuality" they sure are all too easily hurt by criticism of something they like.

Are you so lacking in personal identity that someone saying "there's a problem here that needs discussing" is somehow equivalent to "you're a horrible person for liking this thing" and you feel the incessant need to justify your liking of it?

Grow up, people. Nearly two thirds (hyperbolic statement) of pop music is lazy and uses the four chord structure. This is an awful way to compose music, and the industry should probably think about trying to move away from that idea. Does this mean you're a fucking moron for liking Journey? Or The Smashing Pumpkins? If you have to think about it, you're an idiot.


Criticism is good. It means people are starting to value the influence games are having, and means the general audience is starting to take gaming seriously. You know, what you people have been bleating about for years? You can't have it both ways. You can't ask for games to be taken seriously, but be above critique.

Like what you like. But remember that criticism of a thing does not instantly devalue the thing. In fact, criticism actually increases value because it creates dialogue, change and most importantly, improvement.

 

[Signa]

Oh yeah OP? Well I like fighting my fucktoys. Lightsaber dildos ho! *Schoo* *Zoom* *VMMMM VMMMM*

 

[camazotz]

To put this politely as possible, you are worrying about a problem that doesn't exist.

Look, I've been in that "Am I allowed to enjoy anything at all." Sexism doesn't make a game bad. It just means a game isn't perfect. It's only a problem if you flat out refuse to acknowledge potential sexism. Tell me one game that's perfect. It's a criticism of a game, a flaw. A single flaw. That's all.

Relax man.

But what makes a game sexist?

Does this make my Skyrim install sexist? I don't think so...maybe you do. My fiancee didn't, she forced me to install all my armor mods and edits on her copy so she could use them too.

What makes a game sexist can be a subjective quality. I mean there are obvious non-subjective instances (Ride to Hell: Retribution for example...pretty far down the line into "ya thats sexist"...but also a complete shit fest as games go so the sexism isn't half as bad as everything else the game does horribly), but wouldn't most instances be subjective?

EDIT: Fixed bad quoting...bad quoting..bad. No treat.

I'm going to place my allegiance by asking for a link to that awesome mod.

 

[camazotz]

*sigh*

For the last time: criticism of a work is not criticism of people who like/enjoy that work.

For people who ***** about people who are "too easily offended by sexuality" they sure are all too easily hurt by criticism of something they like.

Are you so lacking in personal identity that someone saying "there's a problem here that needs discussing" is somehow equivalent to "you're a horrible person for liking this thing" and you feel the incessant need to justify your liking of it?

Grow up, people. Nearly two thirds (hyperbolic statement) of pop music is lazy and uses the four chord structure. This is an awful way to compose music, and the industry should probably think about trying to move away from that idea. Does this mean you're a fucking moron for liking Journey? Or The Smashing Pumpkins? If you have to think about it, you're an idiot.


Criticism is good. It means people are starting to value the influence games are having, and means the general audience is starting to take gaming seriously. You know, what you people have been bleating about for years? You can't have it both ways. You can't ask for games to be taken seriously, but be above critique.

Like what you like. But remember that criticism of a thing does not instantly devalue the thing. In fact, criticism actually increases value because it creates dialogue, change and most importantly, improvement.

Not that I disagree, but this is a disingenuous position when applied to the reality of argumentation online, for the same reason that most people take ownership of what they like and transpose a sense of being judged when their preferred content is critiqued, people also impose that same sense of judgement on things which they don't like...and ergo liking that item which is under scrutiny implies a flaw in character. The internet is one giant cesspit of examples of both sides judging and being judged whether they intended to or not.

To properly critique an element of anything you need to make an argument that explains the basis of your criticism that doesn't dip deep into the "this is stupid/idiotic" territory. You pose an argument that starts to imply "all of this thing" is wrong and you immediately move into a territory of arbitrary objectification.

Your four chords example is great because it's not a critique of all music, so much as a demonstration that too much music is reliant on a simple structure and leads to a bland conformity. It doesn't actually imply that all music that relies on four chords is bad, but rather that too much music takes a lazy route. This is not the same as what seems to happen in video games, where there is an active effort to imply or state that all appearance of sexuality or sexualization for male benefit is inherently wrong. Now, stated at its face this argument is compelling and can't imagine anyone disagreeing with it....but a lot of the advocacy for the equalization of roles and appearance of women in games appear to have no room for the idea of games over a broad spectrum; there's a reverse effort, from what I have seen, to eliminate sexualized feminine forms entirely in favor of a rigorous effort at removing such imagery forever more.....or so the argument seems to trend toward. No more Dead or Alive games, in other words.

When you have a group of people actively campaigning against content of this type, and as part of their verbal assault is the implied and often fully stated implication that such presentations reflect an inherent flaw in the character of the designers, the developers, the writers and the players, it's hard not to find people freaking out a bit. If this "implied flaw" in the character of the opposite side is not intended, it's hard to imagine how it could be otherwise, given the way the argument is generally framed. As a result, the much more acceptable and rational message of "video games should reflect a spectrum of interests that also reflects its broad audience" gets lost in the fray, when people out there actively imply that any depiction of women in video games, anywhere, must conform to their specific conception of both female sexuality and what men are identifiably allowed to enjoy in their desired framework of control.

Goddamnit now you have me arguing a position I hate taking. I'm really quite comfortable with the idea of properly attired and normally presented female protagonists (and bit players) in video games. I just also feel that there's room for other games, as well. Anyway.....

TL;DR it's on both sides; people who feel accused for liking something stem from people who make the accusation that liking something makes those people bad. A proper discourse requires reasonable discourse on both sides and that hardly ever happens these days.

 

[The Lunatic]

To the people who keep bringing up the argument of "Other people might not like it".


What's wrong with that? Is everyone required to like every thing? Are there not other games you can enjoy? Why do you specifically want these gamers to cater to your interests when others are happily enjoying them as they are?

 

[the December King]

You like them, fine!

I don't like them at all, personally. But I have never liked the idea of scantily clad babe waif- fu masters beating up hordes of (usually) men, but to be fair, I also don't play StreetFighter-action type games, I like to properly armor my female warriors in other genres, and would rather play a monster/alien/animal no matter what.

I certainly don't want them banned, or changed, or anything- games you can do that stuff in are aces in my book as far as existing, I'm just not going to buy or play them. And it's not even necessarily about lazy storytelling or design by committee- some games can have sexualized characters that fit a narrative just fine, hell, I can imagine an arc that could allow for that sexualization to be one-sided, to some extent (but certainly not many, and it would really be special case).

It's about personal preferences in entertainment. You're not wrong for liking what you like, and only you can choose to change your mind about something. Sure, others can put forward persuasive arguments and salient points, but in the end, it's your choice.

 

[AngelBlackChaos]

See, I don't really care if you happen to like scantily clad women in unrealistic situations. That is so prevalent in gaming that it ceases to get a rise out of me. What does irritate me is someone seeing women characters in gaming as "Fighting F**ktoys" instead of characters with stories.

Though, that was probably you trying to get a rise out of people, and get a thread with a good amount of replies.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.

There's plenty of women in the middle of a modern war zone. Unless you only count the americans.
When your country is at war, everyone fights. Even the old and the weak and the young, and kids and women, they all do.
It does not look pretty, but it happens all the time in all the wars.

With the greatest respect; I don't seem to recall there being female infantry at Omaha Beach, or at the Somme, or Gallipoli, or El Alamein. If you're talking about a guerrilla insurgency like what happened in Occupied Europe and currently going on to varying degrees in the Middle East, then that's a different story and you'd be right on the money. But front line combat between professional armies has traditionally (with notable exceptions) been the sausage fest to end all sausage fests....and now I feel horrible for such an awful paraphrasing of the World War 1 quote.

Women in active combat roles and zones as part of professional, standing armies is as far as I'm aware a very recent phenomenon; not counting Israel.

 

[grassgremlin]

That's great. I also like my fighting fuck toys too.
But, authors impliment them into stories where they don't belong.
People are made to feel comfortable for their conclusion.

I don't present my porn stache for all to see.
Keep it in your pants, soldier.

Creating things are about thinking of your audience and making sure you don't break immersion.
What's more breaking of immersion? Some bikini clad hyper bimbo in a grimy zombie murdering war simulator.

Protip: I make stories with exceptionally gay characters who only exist in worlds that are exceptionally gay. I would never place them in a exceptionally hetero world because their presence would pull the audience away.

Fantasy is also about balancing reality and finding reason to justify additions to subject. And not being lazy. You gotta go deep. Can't just hand wave, you gotta work for the fucking writing and it sure won't be fun, but when people enjoy it it's rewarding and you learn something new.

 

[lacktheknack]

Because pandering is boring and annoying.

When I play a game, and there's prominent characters (or "characters") being sexual for no adequate reason, I get annoyed. I roll my eyes and moan to myself that even in a professional environment while making something that they planned to sell to the masses, they still can't motivate themselves to make a female character that doesn't have obvious sex appeal. Ugh.

"Sexist" isn't even part of my problem with it anymore. I hate it because it actively alienates me from the game. Heck, even in Street Fighter, despite the fact that Cammy is my best fighter, I don't like using her, because her leotard is too annoying and distracting.

"But what if games want to pursue female characters who have their sexuality carefully crafted into their character?" Well, get non-sexual women right first and then I'll be more open to it.

TLR: Screw boobs and butts.

 

[oreso]

I hate puritanism and shaming too.

"This is lazy and dumb" is a different criticism to "This is sexist"

One is an aesthetic argument, one is a moral one.

You can say the former as much as you like, and I'll probably agree. You can say the latter as much as you like too, but I'll probably defend the people who like it because I don't like when folks who presume to preach about morality in videogames (probably, there's probably some genuine sexism in video games that I wouldn't defend).

I'm all for having the discussion either way though.

---

I would ask that folks please respect the OP's objection though. It's not an overreaction if very prominent critics and outlets are peddling this shaming and moralising language, and if the OP's objection doesn't apply to you then obviously it just don't apply to you; don't worry about it. It wasn't cool when the Christian right was doing it. It isn't cool now.

---

I would also even argue that throwing sexy and scantily clad folks into an otherwise normal warzone isn't always bad writing. I mean, I'm not saying Metal Gear Solid's writing is great, but the random non-sequiturs [http://youtu.be/IyekGFe04KI?t=3m5s] and nudity [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oe2ZW4boNqE] are very much part of the appeal. ^_^

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.

There's plenty of women in the middle of a modern war zone. Unless you only count the americans.
When your country is at war, everyone fights. Even the old and the weak and the young, and kids and women, they all do.
It does not look pretty, but it happens all the time in all the wars.

With the greatest respect; I don't seem to recall there being female infantry at Omaha Beach, or at the Somme, or Gallipoli, or El Alamein. If you're talking about a guerrilla insurgency like what happened in Occupied Europe and currently going on to varying degrees in the Middle East, then that's a different story and you'd be right on the money. But front line combat between professional armies has traditionally (with notable exceptions) been the sausage fest to end all sausage fests....and now I feel horrible for such an awful paraphrasing of the World War 1 quote.

Women in active combat roles and zones as part of professional, standing armies is as far as I'm aware a very recent phenomenon; not counting Israel.

According to wikipedia:
There were 800,000 women who served in the Soviet Armed Forces during the war (WWII). Nearly 200,000 were decorated and 89 eventually received the Soviet Union?s highest award, the Hero of the Soviet Union. Some served as pilots, snipers, machine gunners, tank crew members and partisans, as well as in auxiliary roles.
There were also the Night Witches, the legendary Soviet female military aviators unit.
These aren't recent but this is what first springs to mind.
I mean, if you are just sending troops somewhere for fun and profit, they can pretty much be all male, but when the war knocks on your door that kind of changes things. When all the men have left to fight you only have women to recruit to compensate for war losses.

As I said, with notable exceptions, the many female Soviet fighter pilots, tank units being arguably the biggest and most prominent example.

 

[peruvianskys]

I grew up in a world where women are equal to men. I grew up in a world where gay relationships are completely normal. I grew up in a world where what made people happy was just fine as long as no one lost an eye.

See, you actually don't live in that world. You live in a world where women are constantly devalued and dehumanized in order to sell their bodies as sexual aides to misogynistic men.

That is the world you live in, and that is the world in which these criticisms are being made.

 

[giles]

I grew up in a world where women are equal to men. I grew up in a world where gay relationships are completely normal. I grew up in a world where what made people happy was just fine as long as no one lost an eye.

See, you actually don't live in that world. You live in a world where women are constantly devalued and dehumanized in order to sell their bodies as sexual aides to misogynistic men.

That is the world you live in, and that is the world in which these criticisms are being made.

See, you actually don't live in that world. You live in a world where farts smell like elderberries and the Wicked Witch of the West's flying monkeys have taken over the Kreml.

That is the world you live in, and that is the world in which these criticisms are being made.

 

[Fox12]

What happened to that world? Why are people trying to tell me my toys are wrong?

Because they're "toys" not people.

Look, it's fine to have a story that explores sexuality as part of the story. Berserk is one of my favorite stories of all time, and there's a LOT of explicit sex. But, especially in the Golden Age arc, it's all plot relevant. It all progresses the story. The characters are all treated with respect during these scenes. We see the way Griffith uses people. We see Guts suffer from PTSD during one of these scenes. They matter.

Compare this to Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball. The women have essentially been relegated to dolls. They're empty husks of things with no personality. The women exist solely to provide gratification to the libido's of male audience members. The portrayal of women in these kinds of stories is offensive. The characters whole designs are built around male sexual gratification. They aren't empowered, they aren't progressive, and they aren't strong role models. Furthermore, there are a lot of people who are offended by these depictions of women because they feel devalued by them. Now, these people aren't calling for bans or censorship, but they are voicing their opinions and feelings, and if people feel offended then I think they deserve to have their opinions heard.
http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311

Essentially the issue isn't sex at all. Women love sex just as much as men do. Women typically love talking about and thinking about sex as much as men. The issue is how people are portrayed, and whether certain portrayals are offensive.

 

[VanQ]

Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.

And for the love of Christ, when I criticize female characters like this I am not criticizing the people who enjoy them. No one is saying you're a bad person for enjoying it. Chill. Out. Or am I allowed to run around the forums saying how everyone is telling me I'm wrong for enjoying Halo and console gaming?

Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.