I Like My Fighting F**ktoy's

[Tsun Tzu]

Right there with you, OP.

I'm going to place my allegiance by asking for a link to that awesome mod.

+99999999

Mod list, plox.

Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.

Weeeeell.

Spoiler: Is this satire? It's MGS5, so it probably is? Maybe?

But, Japan.

See, I don't really care if you happen to like scantily clad women in unrealistic situations. That is so prevalent in gaming that it ceases to get a rise out of me. What does irritate me is someone seeing women characters in gaming as "Fighting F**ktoys" instead of characters with stories.

Though, that was probably you trying to get a rise out of people, and get a thread with a good amount of replies.

While the ire is understandable, it's misplaced.

Look to Miss Sarkeesian, as she's the one employing that title. Also, blame TvTropes.

What happened to that world? Why are people trying to tell me my toys are wrong?

Because they're "toys" not people.

Look, it's fine to have a story that explores sexuality as part of the story. Berserk is one of my favorite stories of all time, and there's a LOT of explicit sex. But, especially in the Golden Age arc, it's all plot relevant. It all progresses the story. The characters are all treated with respect during these scenes. We see the way Griffith uses people. We see Guts suffer from PTSD during one of these scenes. They matter.

Compare this to Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball. The women have essentially been relegated to dolls. They're empty husks of things with no personality. The women exist solely to provide gratification to the libido's of male audience members. The portrayal of women in these kinds of stories is offensive. The characters whole designs are built around male sexual gratification. They aren't empowered, they aren't progressive, and they aren't strong role models. Furthermore, there are a lot of people who are offended by these depictions of women because they feel devalued by them. Now, these people aren't calling for bans or censorship, but they are voicing their opinions and feelings, and if people feel offended then I think they deserve to have their opinions heard.
http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311

Essentially the issue isn't sex at all. Women love sex just as much as men do. Women typically love talking about and thinking about sex as much as men. The issue is how people are portrayed, and whether certain portrayals are offensive.

Er...the OP is just using the term employed in the trope and, from the sound of it, doesn't consider them to not be "people" either.

Emphasis mine, but...seriously, this is an opinion. Many women (ex, friends of ex/my current friends) I've engaged with on the subject don't find it offensive at all and, oddly, enjoy ogling just as much as some dudes do. Which is entirely anecdotal, to be sure, though it's just as based on personal perspective as all of our individual assessments of the game.

Then again, most of them are Bi, so that may be affecting things.

*shrug*

I'd raise the well worn argument of enemy combatants in shooters, brawlers, etc. as being nameless, pointless husks meant only to be killed off by the player and how that's totally cool, but some girls in bikinis for titillation's sake is somehow inherently offensive...but it just ain't worth, m8.

We're essentially arguing perspective, which is all well and good, though I don't appreciate it when people argue their opinions in absolutes. Not that I'm not guilty of doing it myself from time to time. I am, after all, dumb.

So, realizing that this is just a case of conflicting perspectives.....what's wrong with characters existing for titillation? I have zero problems with male characters being used for the same purpose, like they are in some female-oriented media. It doesn't 'devalue' me, as a person or as a male, in any sense of the word. I'm a separate and, most importantly, real entity, after all.

To me, there's nothing objectively wrong with masturbation material, so long as it isn't purporting to be something else, which DoA: BVB certainly isn't.

 

[newfoundsky]

No one gives a fuck if you like them. Do that. Good for you. Don't try and silence people who don't lile them.

I don't, what part of this post says I'm trying to silence anyone? The post says....hey we all like different stuff, as long as it makes us happy and it doesn't hurt anyone, thats alright...right?

You have an rather aggressive posture for someone with an MLP avatar.

You're suggesting no one is being hurt. People are complaining that such things hurt them. "No, it's just what I like," you say. "You are choosing to be offended! We are all equal!" And just like that, you have dismissed their opinion and proved that you do not view them as equal.

 

[VanQ]

Mod list, plox.

Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.

Weeeeell.

Spoiler: Is this satire? It's MGS5, so it probably is? Maybe?

But, Japan.

Okay, so we have a list of 1 so far. This is certainly a problematic trend. Forgive my ignorance.

 

[Tsun Tzu]

Weeeeell.

Spoiler: Is this satire? It's MGS5, so it probably is? Maybe?

But, Japan.

Okay, so we have a list of 1 so far. This is certainly a problematic trend. Forgive my ignorance.

Oh...oh, don't be that way, my fellow GG'er.

It certainly exists otherwise people wouldn't whine about it. Just like I whine about people wanting to take muh games away. It's not that they're the majority, as that would be silly, but they certainly exist and their aim is what I take issue with.

Another example though!

Spoiler: Why? I mean, I'm all for sexy, but this is just dumb.

And, again, Japan. MGS5 for the first one and RE:R for the second.

 

[EternallyBored]

Weeeeell.

Spoiler: Is this satire? It's MGS5, so it probably is? Maybe?

But, Japan.

Okay, so we have a list of 1 so far. This is certainly a problematic trend. Forgive my ignorance.

Oh...oh, don't be that way, my fellow GG'er.

It certainly exists otherwise people wouldn't whine about it. Just like I whine about people wanting to take muh games away. It's not that they're the majority, as that would be silly, but they certainly exist and their aim is what I take issue with.

Another example though!

Spoiler: Why? I mean, I'm all for sexy, but this is just dumb.

And, again, Japan. MGS5 for the first one and RE:R for the second.

Oh, can I play? let's avoid Japan and go straight for some old fashioned Crytek and the free-to-play game Warface.

Spoiler: here's a fun shot of female models next to their male counterparts for the same game

And that's after Crytek had to moderate them down because apparently the original designs had less clothes, more exagerrated proportions, and high heels on.

I didn't take Topsider's comment too seriously earlier, but apparently there is a section of modern war shooter fans that prefer their men to be totally realistic and want their female models to be completely unrealistic, I guess tonal consistency can be trumped by a desire for fan service.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

Compare this to Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball. The women have essentially been relegated to dolls. They're empty husks of things with no personality. The women exist solely to provide gratification to the libido's of male audience members. The characters whole designs are built around male sexual gratification. They aren't empowered, they aren't progressive, and they aren't strong role models.

All that would be valid criticism if...you know...that wasn't EXACTLY what the devs were going for. I'm all for criticizing gnomes for being short, but what's the point of doing that? If you took that criticism to the devs, their response would be "umm...yes."

The portrayal of women in these kinds of stories is offensive.

I had to take that quote out of the above paragraph because getting offended is entirely subjective, you can't try to put it across as a fact.
The women in DOAB exist for sexual gratification for males, yes that is a fact. But the matter of finding them offensive depends entirely on the individual...a LOT of the guys who bought DOAB sure as hell don't find it offensive. I'm willing to bet that quite a few women don't find DOAB offensive either - they quickly identify it for what it is, understand it's just harmless entertainment, understand it's not aimed at them, and they move on. It's a vocal minority who dance around the game beating the offended drum. Sure by all means they should be allowed to do that if they want to (criticism etc) but it's hard to see why such people won't be taken too seriously, especially not by game devs.

Furthermore, there are a lot of people who are offended by these depictions of women because they feel devalued by them.

If someone feels devalued by fictional characters, would it be fair to say those people already had some internal issues with feeling devalued? I can see that happening with women. Women are constantly bombarded with pressure from all forms of media and pressures from society how to act/behave/dress/etc, and from that pressure their sense of value may quite easily drop. We see it happening constantly. All it takes are further "pressures" from fiction/fantasy portrayals certainly don't HELP, but blaming fiction/fantasy seems like missing the forest for the trees.

Someone who has a solid sense of identity and doesn't let something from fiction/fantasy "devalue" them in real life.

Now, these people aren't calling for bans or censorship, but they are voicing their opinions and feelings, and if people feel offended then I think they deserve to have their opinions heard.

Essentially the issue isn't sex at all. Women love sex just as much as men do. Women typically love talking about and thinking about sex as much as men. The issue is how people are portrayed, and whether certain portrayals are offensive.

I need help understanding this.

I've never come across anyone who said "I find this offensive, but please keep doing it". The very fact they are voicing their opinion about being offended means they are asking for it to stop happening. Not blatantly, not directly, but that is their underlying message. Why else would they voice their criticism? They wouldn't bother doing that if they DIDN'T want (whatever is offending them) to stop happening.
When someone says "I dislike this" it means they don't want to see anymore of it. When someone says "I find this sexist" it means they want it to stop. When I say "good lord Transformer 2's plot was awful" it means I don't want to see any more movie plots so awful.

People who say "this offends me!" aren't quite asking for bans or censorship, but they are still tiptoeing the border in a very subtle and passive manner. They understand that whatever offends them will inevitably keep coming out, but deep down they want to see it gone completely.

Again, I've never come across anyone who said "I find this offensive, but please keep doing it".

 

[Fox12]

Someone who has a solid sense of identity and doesn't let something from fiction/fantasy "devalue" them in real life.

Now, these people aren't calling for bans or censorship, but they are voicing their opinions and feelings, and if people feel offended then I think they deserve to have their opinions heard.

Essentially the issue isn't sex at all. Women love sex just as much as men do. Women typically love talking about and thinking about sex as much as men. The issue is how people are portrayed, and whether certain portrayals are offensive.

I need help understanding this.

I've never come across anyone who said "I find this offensive, but please keep doing it". The very fact they are voicing their opinion about being offended means they are asking for it to stop happening. Not blatantly, not directly, but that is their underlying message. Why else would they voice their criticism? They wouldn't bother doing that if they DIDN'T want (whatever is offending them) to stop happening.
When someone says "I dislike this" it means they don't want to see anymore of it. When someone says "I find this sexist" it means they want it to stop. When I say "good lord Transformer 2's plot was awful" it means I don't want to see any more movie plots so awful.

People who say "this offends me!" aren't quite asking for bans or censorship, but they are still tiptoeing the border in a very subtle and passive manner. They understand that whatever offends them will inevitably keep coming out, but deep down they want to see it gone completely.

Again, I've never come across anyone who said "I find this offensive, but please keep doing it".

There's a huge difference, actually. One is Jack Thompson, who wants to use the government to enforce his opinions on other people. The other is Anita Sarkeesian, who disagrees with tropes in video games and wants to have a discussion about it. Yes, she wants to change games, but she isn't trying to force her opinions on other people. She's simply trying to persuade others. Both want to create change, but their methods differ enormously, and that's important. That's typically the proper way to handle the situation in a republic.

 

[Aaron Sylvester]

There's a huge difference, actually. One is Jack Thompson, who wants to use the government to enforce his opinions on other people. The other is Anita Sarkeesian, who disagrees with tropes in video games and wants to have a discussion about it. Yes, she wants to change games, but she isn't trying to force her opinions on other people. She's simply trying to persuade others. Both want to create change, but their methods differ enormously, and that's important. That's typically the proper way to handle the situation in a republic.

Forcing opinions on people is completely out of the question and out of scope of any discussion, it is utterly extreme and bizarre and I don't even know why you brought that up. Jack Thompson never even stood a remote chance of achieving what he was going for.

So I'll just talk about Anita - she wants to see all depictions of scantily-clad women (context or not), all depictions of weak/submissive women (context or not), all instances of female characters lacking agency (context or not) completely gone. According to her those things have no place in media. She has made that extremely clear in all her videos through constant criticism and constant claims of how much it offends her, constant claims of how those things are bad for gaming/media. There's really no room for discussion with Anita. It's a dead end.

But I agree she should still be allowed to continue doing what she does unhindered, since it's practically her job to do that.

 

[b.w.irenicus]

It may just be my male way of thinkung (seriously, I once read an article about that), but to me, when someone says that something is a "problem" or "problematic", the term itself (to me at least) automaticially implies "a solution is needed for". And that implies wanting thoses things gone. With that I'm not ok.
As long as someone just says "I don't like it/feel it's offensive, so I don't buy it/play it", thats perfectly fine to my. I myself don't mind the look of that sniper in MGS5, but if for someone it's reason enough not to buy the game, ok then.
Another thing I noticed in this thread: Peeple are very eager to contruct this a a binary choice, meaning you either have a sexulised fuck doll devoid of any character or some modest, interestingly writen female char. I'm not to familiar with her videos, but didn't Sarkeesian call Bayonetta a fighting fuck toy? Because she does not fit either of those categories.
In my opinion there should be room for shallow female characters like in DOA, as much as there is a need for female leads or at least fully developed characters. And I agree thate here there is problem. There is no balance between the two.

 

[Erttheking]

Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.

And for the love of Christ, when I criticize female characters like this I am not criticizing the people who enjoy them. No one is saying you're a bad person for enjoying it. Chill. Out. Or am I allowed to run around the forums saying how everyone is telling me I'm wrong for enjoying Halo and console gaming?

Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.

'

Well there was Resident Evil Revelations. The main characters are supposed to be part of a modern military unit and one of them dresses like this.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111205182806/residentevil/images/c/cf/SherawatRev.jpg

And looks really fucking stupid. (Modern warzone was a bad choice of words, I was thinking more modern military unit)

 

[Pr0]

To put this politely as possible, you are worrying about a problem that doesn't exist.

Look, I've been in that "Am I allowed to enjoy anything at all." Sexism doesn't make a game bad. It just means a game isn't perfect. It's only a problem if you flat out refuse to acknowledge potential sexism. Tell me one game that's perfect. It's a criticism of a game, a flaw. A single flaw. That's all.

Relax man.

But what makes a game sexist?

Does this make my Skyrim install sexist? I don't think so...maybe you do. My fiancee didn't, she forced me to install all my armor mods and edits on her copy so she could use them too.

What makes a game sexist can be a subjective quality. I mean there are obvious non-subjective instances (Ride to Hell: Retribution for example...pretty far down the line into "ya thats sexist"...but also a complete shit fest as games go so the sexism isn't half as bad as everything else the game does horribly), but wouldn't most instances be subjective?

EDIT: Fixed bad quoting...bad quoting..bad. No treat.

I'm going to place my allegiance by asking for a link to that awesome mod.

Which one? Some of that I made myself, other bits are from a friend, I'm assuming you're talking about the armor or the character and not the incredibly high definition scenery which...also, is fantastic work and beautiful in its own right.

Fine just don?t expect everyone to respect the character for anything other than the fuck toy they are or pretend being a masturbation aid is ?empowering?.

My Skyrim character is the most powerful person in the entire game, well most of the time. I'm not sure how that's not being empowered. Yes shes gorgeous but shes also a work of years of refinement and a lot of art resources from various designers and even work I've done myself because I'm invested in the character, I don't just fill my Skyrim install with various generic waifu's and use them as "masturbation aid's" as you put it. My Skyrim install is beautiful from one end to the other because I put a lot of personal time and effort into making it so, and I cap it off with the piece de resistance, which is my own vision of what I believe to be the hyper heroic, hyper-sexual, empowered, alpha female....granted she looks like a fitness model and her hair is way too well taken care of, but aside from that I don't parade her around in fetish gear and lingerie, shes all blood, steel, leather and bone...shes not a masturbation aid, shes my expression of power and that expression of power is extremely feminine, while not being victimized or used as a trophy in any way.

So to be clear, this character is not my expression of power over a woman, but my expression of power envisioned as a woman.

Thats a subtlety that is extremely lost on the recent pundits on this subject. My Skyrim character is not my personal sexual marionette, shes my vision of what ultimate power is...and that ultimate power is female, badass, and drop dead gorgeous. How is that a bad thing?

 

[Pr0]

No one gives a fuck if you like them. Do that. Good for you. Don't try and silence people who don't lile them.

I don't, what part of this post says I'm trying to silence anyone? The post says....hey we all like different stuff, as long as it makes us happy and it doesn't hurt anyone, thats alright...right?

You have an rather aggressive posture for someone with an MLP avatar.

You're suggesting no one is being hurt. People are complaining that such things hurt them. "No, it's just what I like," you say. "You are choosing to be offended! We are all equal!" And just like that, you have dismissed their opinion and proved that you do not view them as equal.

Right there with you, OP.

I'm going to place my allegiance by asking for a link to that awesome mod.

+99999999

Mod list, plox.

Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.

Weeeeell.

Spoiler: Is this satire? It's MGS5, so it probably is? Maybe?

But, Japan.

See, I don't really care if you happen to like scantily clad women in unrealistic situations. That is so prevalent in gaming that it ceases to get a rise out of me. What does irritate me is someone seeing women characters in gaming as "Fighting F**ktoys" instead of characters with stories.

Though, that was probably you trying to get a rise out of people, and get a thread with a good amount of replies.

While the ire is understandable, it's misplaced.

Look to Miss Sarkeesian, as she's the one employing that title. Also, blame TvTropes.

What happened to that world? Why are people trying to tell me my toys are wrong?

Because they're "toys" not people.

Look, it's fine to have a story that explores sexuality as part of the story. Berserk is one of my favorite stories of all time, and there's a LOT of explicit sex. But, especially in the Golden Age arc, it's all plot relevant. It all progresses the story. The characters are all treated with respect during these scenes. We see the way Griffith uses people. We see Guts suffer from PTSD during one of these scenes. They matter.

Compare this to Dead or Alive Beach Volley Ball. The women have essentially been relegated to dolls. They're empty husks of things with no personality. The women exist solely to provide gratification to the libido's of male audience members. The portrayal of women in these kinds of stories is offensive. The characters whole designs are built around male sexual gratification. They aren't empowered, they aren't progressive, and they aren't strong role models. Furthermore, there are a lot of people who are offended by these depictions of women because they feel devalued by them. Now, these people aren't calling for bans or censorship, but they are voicing their opinions and feelings, and if people feel offended then I think they deserve to have their opinions heard.
http://harkavagrant.com/index.php?id=311

Essentially the issue isn't sex at all. Women love sex just as much as men do. Women typically love talking about and thinking about sex as much as men. The issue is how people are portrayed, and whether certain portrayals are offensive.

Er...the OP is just using the term employed in the trope and, from the sound of it, doesn't consider them to not be "people" either.

Emphasis mine, but...seriously, this is an opinion. Many women (ex, friends of ex/my current friends) I've engaged with on the subject don't find it offensive at all and, oddly, enjoy ogling just as much as some dudes do. Which is entirely anecdotal, to be sure, though it's just as based on personal perspective as all of our individual assessments of the game.

Then again, most of them are Bi, so that may be affecting things.

*shrug*

I'd raise the well worn argument of enemy combatants in shooters, brawlers, etc. as being nameless, pointless husks meant only to be killed off by the player and how that's totally cool, but some girls in bikinis for titillation's sake is somehow inherently offensive...but it just ain't worth, m8.

We're essentially arguing perspective, which is all well and good, though I don't appreciate it when people argue their opinions in absolutes. Not that I'm not guilty of doing it myself from time to time. I am, after all, dumb.

So, realizing that this is just a case of conflicting perspectives.....what's wrong with characters existing for titillation? I have zero problems with male characters being used for the same purpose, like they are in some female-oriented media. It doesn't 'devalue' me, as a person or as a male, in any sense of the word. I'm a separate and, most importantly, real entity, after all.

To me, there's nothing objectively wrong with masturbation material, so long as it isn't purporting to be something else, which DoA: BVB certainly isn't.

You got me correct. Thanks for reading me, the post above explains a bit more in detail.

I used the word "Toys" mostly as a simple descriptive....I certainly don't view my Skyrim character as such, I will even admit to a certain level of emotional attachment to her because of the amount of time and art and modding I've put into making her what she is. So yeah...definitely not just "toys". I view females in games as people, as women I'd love to be...if I was in their situation. They're heroic people...whether they're self created mute characters like my Skyrim character, or extremely well written and designed characters like Jane Shepard or even the female Boss from Saints Row and even Bayonetta...who, in fairness, I've never actually hands on played (I don't buy consoles for one game) but from all the LP's I've seen....shes a beautifully realized character, her writing is spot on for what she is, her character is written and voiced in a manner which makes her not just believable but also...inspiring and individual and almost alive. Shes not a sexual fantasy, she, like my Skyrim character, is an expression of ultimate power, grace and beauty and whether that was made by a man or is enjoyed by men....that expression of power, grace and beauty is NOT yet another grizzled white dude with a "troubled past" but an extremely vibrant, well presented, self assured woman who is not just gorgeous and extremely confident and comfortable with her sexuality, but is also capable and has true ultimate power and agency within the scenarios she is placed in by the games story.

People look at Bayonetta and say shes demeaning....I see it from the angle of a person who creates characters, and Bayonetta isn't demeaning to women, Bayonetta is literally a digital expression of the worship of the feminine at a nearly godlike level.

People may not agree with how I see that, but thats how I see it, as an artist and designer.

 

[Loonyyy]

Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.

And I'm gonna call it out for what it is: unrealistic for her to be there in the first place, since we're always part of some secret squirrel group in these games, so she might as well throw on some butt floss. Boom. Went there. Wake me up when a woman makes it through BUD/S log PT.

When you want to make your point a little more coherent so I can actually follow what you're talking about, feel free to message me.

Sounds like he's referring to the whole "Women in combat is unrealistic" thing, and then specifying what looks like some military training qualification. Which is a whole other bag of worms, but I wouldn't exactly agree with it for a number of reasons.

Apparently because women are unlikely to be serving members of the special forces, we might as well have them parading around in a thong if they're there.

And of course, people wonder if there's any sexism in our community. This would be exactly why people have problems with "Fighting fucktoy"s and what have you, apart from any talk of verisimilitude.

*Head desk* There's something wrong with the world if we're ok with Dragons, Fire Demons, sentient corpses, giants, and the resurrection of the dead, but a woman in combat is just unthinkable. And if she is in combat, she needs to be wearing skimpy clothing because "She shouldn't be there anyway". Might as well put all men in thongs too because there's no way video game protagonists can kill as many men as they do without becoming psychopaths.

Well, yeah. It's a pretty poor defense, it's a textbook non-sequitur, it's a derail, and just textbook sexism.

I was in the Navy, I knew plenty of female marines. While not specifically "Special Forces" these girls were rock solid soldiers with every right to wear the saber that their male counterparts had.

That's one of the reasons I'd dispute the justification of if they're there, they may as well be in thongs. There are real women who serve in the armed forces, and even in units which are commonly depicted in videogames (Seriously, how many FPSes place the player in the role of a member of the USMC). It's a subtle diss at these people that they're so often excluded.

Also that the skimpy attire most commonly isn't used in modern, or realistic modern settings (Barring a few obvious exceptions, Warface, or Metal Gear). It's often in fantasy settings, and often is combined with acrobatic characters, because it's a fine line between acrobatics and a pole dance in some of these settings. In short, I don't think anything Topsider said is at all convincing.

Also the IDF doesn't seem to have a problem with putting weapons in the hands of women. And most of the women in the IDF could probably kick the crap out of an entire room of gaming nerds so...yeah.

Well, yeah. That's exactly it. There's nothing wrong with enjoying some scantily clad women, for the most part. There's some people who can't seperate that from their views on women however, and allow it to colour their worldview. That's when we get people saying if we include women, we might as well view them sexually through the gaze of a straight male.

I don't want to get rid of your fighting fucktoys, I'd rather they were a smaller portion of female characters overall (And I feel that would be better achieved through increasing the number of female characters than taking away from existing portrayls), and I want people to think critically about what they're viewing, and understand that some elements of the things we enjoy can be, and are, problematic to some. If you've taken the time to wonder or worry for a moment about what you're viewing, then you're already on the right track. If you're thinking, you're winning.

 

[VanQ]

Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.

And for the love of Christ, when I criticize female characters like this I am not criticizing the people who enjoy them. No one is saying you're a bad person for enjoying it. Chill. Out. Or am I allowed to run around the forums saying how everyone is telling me I'm wrong for enjoying Halo and console gaming?

Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.

'

Well there was Resident Evil Revelations. The main characters are supposed to be part of a modern military unit and one of them dresses like this.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111205182806/residentevil/images/c/cf/SherawatRev.jpg

And looks really fucking stupid. (Modern warzone was a bad choice of words, I was thinking more modern military unit)

Yeah, somebody linked me that image and it looks absurd. Though to be honest, when you said modern military I thought you meant something more like CoD or BF or some kind of game that at least tries to pass itself off as somewhat realistic. And RE never struck me as the realistic kinda game, though I've never played them so I may be wrong.

But this did give me an idea for a thread. A hopefully positive one. Look forward to it.

 

[Erttheking]

Because if it doesn't fit the tone of the story, if it's a female character who is scantily clad soldier in the middle of a modern war zone, I'm gonna call it what it is. Bad and lazy writing. All I want is consistent tone in my stories.

And for the love of Christ, when I criticize female characters like this I am not criticizing the people who enjoy them. No one is saying you're a bad person for enjoying it. Chill. Out. Or am I allowed to run around the forums saying how everyone is telling me I'm wrong for enjoying Halo and console gaming?

Can you supply an example of a scantily clad woman in the middle of a modern warzone in a video game that isn't humorous/satire? I can't think of a single one. Usually I see them in in fantasy warzones -chainmail bikinis and all that- but I usually justify that by the word "fantasy" being present.

'

Well there was Resident Evil Revelations. The main characters are supposed to be part of a modern military unit and one of them dresses like this.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20111205182806/residentevil/images/c/cf/SherawatRev.jpg

And looks really fucking stupid. (Modern warzone was a bad choice of words, I was thinking more modern military unit)

Yeah, somebody linked me that image and it looks absurd. Though to be honest, when you said modern military I thought you meant something more like CoD or BF or some kind of game that at least tries to pass itself off as somewhat realistic. And RE never struck me as the realistic kinda game, though I've never played them so I may be wrong.

Well Resident Evil gives all of its male characters fairly realistic looking combat uniforms. I mean look at the main male lead from the same game.

http://www.gamespek.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/RE_REV_UE_chris_121219.jpg

Not sure while he rolled up his sleeves, but it looks fine apart from that. It just isn't internally consistent, which is really the big problem I have with sexualized characters. They often clash with the established tone of the story.

And while resident evil's monster design and villains are pretty over the top, it still feels like it takes place in our world.

 

[Siege_TF]

We have to let women dress however they want, because otherwise it's sexual oppression.
We can't let game designers make women over-sexualized, because otherwise it's sexual oppression.
Tee-hee.

Of course we could always just not buy products that offend us, but as just one woman in Florida proved when she got Breaking Bad figures removed from Toys'R'Us; it's up to the vocal minority to dictate what's best for the rest of us.

 

[Loonyyy]

Sounds like he's referring to the whole "Women in combat is unrealistic" thing, and then specifying what looks like some military training qualification. Which is a whole other bag of worms, but I wouldn't exactly agree with it for a number of reasons.

Women in combat is quite realistic.

I didn't dispute that. I disputed the comment about how unrealistic it is for women to be there. I didn't bring realism into it. Neither did errtheking in the post you responded to. You brought this in. errtheking asked for consistency. You're tilting at opponents made from straw.

And yes, often videogames present us with members of the special forces, and if we're going for full verismilitude, then sure, whatever, no chicks. Of course, videogames also present us with members of the Marines on a regular basis, or average joe types, or entirely fictional units. And somehow, I find a woman in a team who is able to keep up with people she would be unlikely to keep up with, less distracting than a woman in a thong.

Apparently because women are unlikely to be serving members of the special forces, we might as well have them parading around in a thong if they're there.

Women doing snake eater stuff is quite unrealistic. Once we breach the unrealism event horizon, it's only a matter of degrees.

Anyone of either gender doing any MGS stuff is quite unrealistic.

Hell, just try crouchwalking like a stealth character, it's a killer.

I mean, shit; if we're going to shriek about a sexy outfit being unrealistic in a warzone, we might as well shriek about the Super Hornet in Battlefield 3 carrying twenty Sidewinders.

This is called a false equivalence. You've done it over and over. Things can be a matter of scale, and may matter more or less to different people. And telling me what I should or should not care about is not going to work, and if all we do is use these comparisons to justify objectifying women, then it's sexist as shit. If you don't care about it, fine, that's fair. I'd rather you at least think it through before you made up your mind, but if you don't want to think about it, that's fine too. You should probably avoid decieving others into thinking you're interested in thinking or talking about it though in derailing posts.

Additionally, it completely misunderstands why these things are done. Jets in Battlefield having unlimited missiles is unrealistic, but it's done to simplify things in the interest of pursuing a certain sort of interaction and fun. Women in sexy outfits is also done to pursue a certain interaction and fun, but that fun is tittilation of straight male players who don't mind being pandered to, at least in this game. There's a whole bunch of people who aren't interested in it, or are actively turned off by it, who're just expressing their opinion on the game. And it's not as if the devs aren't aware that some people like it, they've designed it to pander to that mindset, it's no wonder that people who don't like it want to say something when they feel they aren't being catered to.

And if they're thinking about it, and honest, most people who enjoy this stuff understand the concept. I'm pretty sure that OP does.

The "realism" argument is decried, rightfully, everywhere except in debates about female outerwear.

Well, it could be, if you're willing to entirely ignore the nuance and arguments that actual people make. People more often ask for consistency (Like err did, and claiming victory over the realism argument is entirely disconnected from anything err said), that a game which requires men in body armour requires women in armour as well, and that otherwise the tone is affected, and often they're distracted. And it's up to devs whether they even care. They can do whatever they like, they can listen, they can not, they can change, they can stay the same, because it's just another bit of criticism.

I didn't make the realism claim, in fact, I even derided it myself a little. Because I don't think it's entirely honest, or at least correct. But that'd be a further derail. I'm much more sympathetic to the consistency angle.

If people genuinely wanted realism, Arma'd sell a lot better than it does.

A game which recently recieved a third installment, who's second installment has a dedicated continuing fanbase? The platform which spawned DayZ? Yeah, no-one want's that. That's why I, and no-one else either, definitely do not have ARMA II, and a bunch of expansions. Definitely no Operation Flashpoint (And Red River definitely didn't suck, they made it less realistic, totally saved the series that one.). Not a good example for your point. Because ARMA makes a profit targetting a specific consumer, and in the end, most of the criticism of these elements comes down to letting people know that a specific demographic exists.

But you only have to ask around these forums for a bit, and you'd see that there's a whole bunch of people who find the difference in dress of men and women in certain games either unrealistic, patronising, pandering, inconsistent, or sexist, for various reasons. People do want these things, and there's definitely a market for it. Maybe not the biggest market. Maybe not the same market. That doesn't matter one jot. And that doesn't mean that people aren't buying games with these elements even if they disagree, it's more often that they're criticising something, often something that they've played, because they feel it is something that makes the game less good, and they would like to express a desire for an alternative.

 

[Richard Keohane]

I just want to say I like my fighting fucktoy's. And I want to know why that's a bad thing.

I have always been of the opinion that it's okay to be offended by something. That's how you feel! No one has the right to tell you that you can't feel the way you honestly do. Women can get offended by "fighting fucktoys." I get it, it's totally understandable, I'm not mad that they're offended. That said, I'm not going to give up my "fighting fucktoys."

HOWEVER, there is a line where having one more "fighting fucktoy" crosses over into "man, the treatment of women in gaming is universally pretty shitty." And I think there's something to be said for having our toys, but sharing some with the ladies. Even just a few! It doesn't have to be all of them. Just a little lesson I learned back in kindergarten.