I liked Star Wars:TFA but....characterization

[BloatedGuppy]

I don't know where that happened. I remember she uses speeders, but that's about it.

Somewhere between the sprint for the 'quad jumper' and their eventual flight off planet.

More than two bits and Han does say (repeatedly if I remember) that she knows what she's doing. She so impressed him that he asked her to join up with them. You forget that?

No, it really is two bits. I saw the film for a second time last night. It's two bits. And yes, Han offers her a spot on the crew. He did the same with Luke after a similarly short introduction. Han is a huge fucking softy and always has been.

I'll stop saying that when there's a chance for her to fail. Like I said, the typical second movie event is to have the main character lose a hand, hopefully she keeps up that tradition.

I do hope they come up with more original adversity for her than losing a hand yet again, but like yourself I do hope to see ALL the characters be rendered more vulnerable in Act II. Vulnerability is important for tension. I have no issue with the argument that things might have seemed to come "too easily" for Rey, the issue I have is with the volume of said argument and some of the fabrications people invent to support it. She is still within the normal operating range for a Star Wars protagonist.

I never claimed to be a steward, I just said Han seemed like he was acting out of character. The writer's opinion matters, but no one person is the definitive voice on this. Though judging from how many people are saying Rey is a Mary Sue, I imagine I'm not the only one with this opinion.

How many people ARE saying that? I posted an article a while back stating that after analysis of over 1.5 million post film reactions that audience enthusiasm was at an unprecedented 99%. If I were to present that as evidence that there was nothing wrong with the film it would be an absurd example of argumentum ad populum. I'd suggest it would be even more ridiculous to argue that a vocal 1% represents an extraordinary flaw in the central protagonist. Let's just stick to making arguments ourselves, then, and not pretend the fact other people are also making arguments is evidence of anything.

As for Han...he seemed very Han to me. I do not recall any prior Han Solo moments where he told people to "shut up". He doesn't like people insulting the Falcon, but he's never shown an aggressive or surly side in reaction to "being given advice", outside of not liking to hear about the odds.

 

[MishaK]

I like the attempt to turn globally shitty storytelling in the SW universe, into an "SJW/MRA" issue. Fucking priceless.

It's Star Wars! The most laughable, entertaining shlock there is! Space BALLS was better written and acted, and if you really love SW you know that too.

...she has to tell Han how his own ship works.

You mean when she reminds him that the junk dealer she's been working for the last 10-15 years installed a stupid part? A part he's not used to? Because he hasn't seen the Falcon for at least that long? That part?

Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship. Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.

Maybe children, married life, and decades of crushing responsibility have mellowed him. It's as good an explanation for anything in SW.

I might actually buy that, but then why did Han do the most Han thing and run away from his responsibilities in the first place.

Yes, as well as just knowing how the whole damn thing works and telling him the best way to use his ship.

That literally never happened.

Really, do you not remember her saying what they should do with Han finishing her thought? It only happened a few times...

Han always struck me as the kind of person who would tell you to shut up if you were telling him how to use his ship, even if you were right.

Lawrence Kasdan, who was responsible for Han's primary characterization in Empire Strikes Back (far and away the most Han-centric scene) had script approval and co-wrote Force Awakens. It would appear his vision of Han's character differs from yours.

Cool, what does that matter again?

Except that Rey turned it around on Ren and started sifting through his mind, something Leia couldn't do on account of not being the best at everything forever.

Luke did manage to use telekinesis to move ship missiles perfectly at insane speeds, which is power that was no one else shows anything close to in the rest of the series, yet no one bats an eye. Not even counting the fact that Luke had never seen any force powers being used as telekinesis. Neither Obi-Wan or Vader had done that in front of him.

So it's not too much of a stretch to think Rey can do things with the force to a lesser extent than Luke did the first time he started using them.

Did he use telekinesis? I always assumed he just pulled some zen archery stuff. If all he was doing was forcing the missile where it needed to go, why not keep the targeting computer on to have the missile go closer to where it needed to so he wouldn't have to strain himself so hard?

In either case, he wasn't working against another force user. Her beating Ren at his own game makes Ren look weak. Why are we scared of him? If 3 derps can take him in a fight, we can presume a squad of troopers can and we have to ask why no one has stopped him. Why can he kill his fellow Jedi in training without Luke being able to stop him but not deal with these 3? Do we assume that wasn't an emotional experience and that he got through it unscathed?

I refer you to the aforementioned terrible writing and storytelling that is the norm in the SW universe. Blaming on a "feminist" conspiracy what is better explained by the usual shit writing and desperate pandering to "win back" older fans doesn't work for me.

Then again, I don't need for it to, maybe you do.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

No I don't recall Finn landing a blow, though correct me if I'm wrong there. When they fight Ren is just destroying him to the extent he toys with him. He even walks away a couple of times (when he's punching his side remember) just to give Finn a chance, because he's beating him easy and likes toying with him. Then he pins him against a tree, disarms him and slices his back.

Ren is toying with Finn until Finn lands a hit to his shoulder, at which point he seems decidedly pissed off and dispatches him in a couple of brief seconds.

He could have surprise attacked them when they were sleeping or anything. I mean they wouldn't have their guard up, he's their friend. Point is we can't really talk about this because we don't know, but it's more likely it was a surprise betrayal when Luke was away.

We know a bit (from Rey's flashback/vision). We know it wasn't Kylo alone, he had the knights of Ren with him.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

I don't know where that happened. I remember she uses speeders, but that's about it.

Somewhere between the sprint for the 'quad jumper' and their eventual flight off planet.

I've slept since then. Though she still wouldn't have experience with hyperspace flight.

More than two bits and Han does say (repeatedly if I remember) that she knows what she's doing. She so impressed him that he asked her to join up with them. You forget that?

No, it really is two bits. I saw the film for a second time last night. It's two bits. And yes, Han offers her a spot on the crew. He did the same with Luke after a similarly short introduction. Han is a huge fucking softy and always has been.

Now I DEFINITELY don't remember Han offering Luke a spot Oh no wait, I remember, it was after they got off the Death Star. and I KNOW Luke didn't show off his 1337 skills aboard the Millennium Falcon. What I remember from from Luke aboard the MF was him getting shot by training droids trying to learn the most basic force skill and Han telling him to not get cocky because Luke's a decent shot.

I'll stop saying that when there's a chance for her to fail. Like I said, the typical second movie event is to have the main character lose a hand, hopefully she keeps up that tradition.

I do hope they come up with more original adversity for her than losing a hand yet again, but like yourself I do hope to see ALL the characters be rendered more vulnerable in Act II. Vulnerability is important for tension. I have no issue with the argument that things might have seemed to come "too easily" for Rey, the issue I have is with the volume of said argument and some of the fabrications people invent to support it. She is still within the normal operating range for a Star Wars protagonist. [/quote]

Maybe she could lose a leg? Or a nose?

She hasn't needed to be saved yet, so no, she's operating at a higher competence than other SW protagonists.

I never claimed to be a steward, I just said Han seemed like he was acting out of character. The writer's opinion matters, but no one person is the definitive voice on this. Though judging from how many people are saying Rey is a Mary Sue, I imagine I'm not the only one with this opinion.

How many people ARE saying that? I posted an article a while back stating that after analysis of over 1.5 million post film reactions that audience enthusiasm was at an unprecedented 99%. If I were to present that as evidence that there was nothing wrong with the film it would be an absurd example of argumentum ad populum. I'd suggest it would be even more ridiculous to argue that a vocal 1% represents an extraordinary flaw in the central protagonist. Let's just stick to making arguments ourselves, then, and not pretend the fact other people are also making arguments is evidence of anything.

Indeed.

As for Han...he seemed very Han to me. I do not recall any prior Han Solo moments where he told people to "shut up". He doesn't like people insulting the Falcon, but he's never shown an aggressive or surly side in reaction to "being given advice", outside of not liking to hear about the odds.

I remember Han getting mouthy with people who got mouthy with him (princess) and positioned himself as a cocky know-it-all (having been everywhere and seen everything).

And there's this quote:

Look, Your Worshipfulness, let's get one thing straight. I take orders from just one person: me.

snip

I refer you to the aforementioned terrible writing and storytelling that is the norm in the SW universe. Blaming on a "feminist" conspiracy what is better explained by the usual shit writing and desperate pandering to "win back" older fans doesn't work for me.

Then again, I don't need for it to, maybe you do.

Who said I did?

So then, why were any other bombers on the bombing run? A bunch of them went in expecting to take the shot, but nobody else could use the force. Why did Han say the shot was one in a million? He doesn't believe in the force. If the missiles were only moving because of the force, shouldn't he be acknowledging the force is real or wondering how that happened? Also lol at the missiles not moving themselves, missiles have propulsion.

IIRC no one knew Luke had the force, they were even confused when he turned off his targeting computer. Also even Luke never knew he could use the force to do that until moments before. Also I'm pretty sure Han did believe in the force, he just didn't think it controlled his life or anyone elses. I mean by that stage he had seen Obi-Wan turn into a force ghost remember.

The missiles have propulsion but nothing to target so they'd just continue to fly foward. And by "moving" I obviously meant "turning down the incredibly narrow exhaust port mid flight".

Well, the crew of the MF would know if they believed in the force since he actively trained there. They were confused because (we can assume) the computer aimed the missile at the opening. We can assume the missile is supposed to curve like that normally (somehow) because all the other bombers were going along the same run and nobody thought it was weird that Luke's missile curved like that.

And DEFINITELY nobody had seen Obi-Wan as a ghost yet, that didn't happen until the end of VI, and I think only Luke saw them like that. Kenobi had been talking to him, but only him.

As for Han:

Luke Skywalker: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

I don't think he believes in the force.

Well Finn isn't force sensitive and was using a weapon that's been noted to be dangerous to use for non-force sensitives. But didn't he manage to land a blow anyway? And I don't know if it was that one sided against Rey, she was doing fine holding him off before just wrecking his shit.

No I don't recall Finn landing a blow, though correct me if I'm wrong there. When they fight Ren is just destroying him to the extent he toys with him. He even walks away a couple of times (when he's punching his side remember) just to give Finn a chance, because he's beating him easy and likes toying with him. Then he pins him against a tree, disarms him and slices his back.

And it was one sided against Rey. Remember he's not trying to kill her, yet she still has to run away from him. He chases after her chopping through the trees remember, he is winning that fight with ease.

I've slept since then, so I think so, but I'm not solid on it. But yes, he beats Finn pretty well and at worst took some damage (though maybe not). But it does make with nice contrast to Rey, who doesn't get her shit wrecked. As much as they move, she doesn't get beaten.

Makes for a bad villain. As if his ridiculous appearance without his helmet was bad enough. But with Vader you figured he could stop a squad of troopers, though it helps that he can stop blaster shots with his bare(ish) hands.

Making for a bad villain is subjective, I thought he was great. Vader is stronger than Yoda and Yoda managed to take out the two Clone Troopers who were going to kill him, so you'd assume Vader would be able to take out a couple of troopers before he went down. Ren is seemingly weaker than Yoda and other Masters, so probably like four troopers would be able to take him out, just like the rest of the Masters. Hell most of them went down without taking out anyone.

There's room for tactics here as well, the Jedi lost to troopers they thought were allies. The ones that realized they were being betrayed took out plenty of troopers on the way down.

I'd believe that, in which case it's a bad mark on Luke. But that still leaves him fighting however many other padawans when he received about as much training as them (presumably).

He could have surprise attacked them when they were sleeping or anything. I mean they wouldn't have their guard up, he's their friend. Point is we can't really talk about this because we don't know, but it's more likely it was a surprise betrayal when Luke was away.

Hopefully so. Because ironically it would make him look worse if he lost to them in a stand up fight.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

I've slept since then. Though she still wouldn't have experience with hyperspace flight.

She never puts the Falcon into hyperspace. Han does.

Now I DEFINITELY don't remember Han offering Luke a spot Oh no wait, I remember, it was after they got off the Death Star. and I KNOW Luke didn't show off his 1337 skills aboard the Millennium Falcon.

Yeah, before the final run on the Death Star.

LUKE
So... you got your reward and you're
just leaving then?

HAN
That's right, yeah! I got some old
debts I've got to pay off with this
stuff. Even if I didn't, you don't
think I'd be fool enough to stick
around here, do you? Why don't you
come with us? You're pretty good in
a fight. I could use you.

What I remember from from Luke aboard the MF was him getting shot by training droids trying to learn the most basic force skill and Han telling him to not get cocky because Luke's a decent shot.

He gets shot by training droids right up until Ben tells him to concentrate and use the force, and then he blocks their shots. Very similar to Rey having her moment of serenity on the cliff and suddenly fighting MUCH more effectively. Unless it is your contention that Luke's few minutes of practice were sufficient, we can surmise that simply being Force sensitive was all he required pull off remarkable feats with a lightsaber (and however unimpressive a training droid is as competition, blocking attacks you CANNOT SEE is remarkable).

She hasn't needed to be saved yet, so no, she's operating at a higher competence than other SW protagonists.

Except for the two times she did need saving. Or did you imagine she was going to flap her wings and fly off Starkiller Base? She never got remotely near a ship. When she finds out Finn has come to save her, she hugs him and says thank you. Not "PFFT I HAD IT COVERED".

I remember Han getting mouthy with people who got mouthy with him (princess) and positioned himself as a cocky know-it-all (having been everywhere and seen everything).

Rey doesn't get mouthy with him, though. She holds him half in awe, is clearly hungry for his approval, and "talks ship" with him (hence him taking a grudging shine to her). He also seems fond of Finn, because Han Solo is a big softy and always has been. Sure, he's a scurrilous rogue who shoots first and asks questions later, but he's never been anything but a melting butterscotch toffee with his friends and associates. Leia was the mistrustful one.

 

[Gordon_4_v1legacy]

I figured that Finn being, lets charitably call him exuberant at times, was actually a result of him once being a man of little to no personality now trying to find one - indeed the oft-mentioned scene with him and Phasma has Han trying to tell him to dial it down and I could hear Phasma rolling her eyes.

I know from a storytelling perspective it's weak to say the sequel will make him better but since Star Wars is a saga I feel inclined to give it some leeway. I'm sure that getting nearly vivisected by Kylo Ren and put in a coma will smooth him out and now that he'll be hanging with actual friends like Dameron Poe (loved that guy) he should come across more naturally to other people.


As for Rey getting the better of him, well Finn wasn't exactly in the special forces: he was in a support corps on Starkiller base and Jakku was his first combat drop on which he basically broke down. And his escape concluded with crashing into the ground and being unconscious for an unknown period in the desert and then travelling to the nearest settlement which took long enough to dehydrate him so while Rey hardly fought him at his best, it's not like that was a high bar.


That said, who the hell okayed hiring Adam Driver, a man with jug ears to rival the Prince of Wales, as Kylo Ren? Mission accomplished on becoming like your idol Kylo, you have Anakin Skywalker down pat

 

[Winnosh]

Where did the idea that Luke used the force to curve the torpedos come from. That's never ever been stated. The Force wasn't used to alter them, It was used to know WHEN to fire. Any of the pilots could have made the shot, it's just that one missed, and another was shot down by vader. The Force wasn't needed for the missles to get in.

 

[Dazzle Novak]

snip

I don't dislike you personally. I've agreed with you and used your posts as shorthand for "how I probably feel on a topic" while lurking more than you realize.

I dislike you "on Star Wars". Let me leave it at that lest I get another warning for flaming.

As for the portrayal of Han in TFA: it's complicated.

Part of it is that he's too Han. Its been 30 years and he's wearing the same damn outfit doing the same damn shit with the same damn attitude. It's stasis. Ignoring an opportunity tp explore the 3 decades since.

I loathe playing "I would have wrote it this way..." because ideas are dime-a-dozen while actual written material is hard. That said, I'd expect him to be gruffer and more cynical toward all the space sorcery given his backstory leading to TFA.

His leaving Leia holding the bag makes him less sympathetic. The acceptable expression of "man-pain" in blockbusters seems to be abnegating all responsibility.

Where did the idea that Luke used the force to curve the torpedos come from. That's never ever been stated. The Force wasn't used to alter them, It was used to know WHEN to fire. Any of the pilots could have made the shot, it's just that one missed, and another was shot down by vader. The Force wasn't needed for the missles to get in.

Thank you!

The Rebels wouldn't have their entire assault hinge on an impossible shot.

At worst, it's a visual gaffe.

 

[Winnosh]

snip

I don't dislike you personally. I've agreed with you and used your posts as shorthand for "how I probably feel on a topic" while lurking more than you realize.

I dislike you "on Star Wars". Let me leave it at that lest I get another warning for flaming.

As for the portrayal of Han in TFA: it's complicated.

Part of it is that he's too Han. Its been 30 years and he's wearing the same damn outfit doing the same damn shit with the same damn attitude. It's stasis. Ignoring an opportunity tp explore the 3 decades since.

I loathe playing "I would have wrote it this way..." because ideas are dime-a-dozen while actual written material is hard. That said, I'd expect him to be gruffer and more cynical toward all the space sorcery given his backstory leading to TFA.

His leaving Leia holding the bag makes him less sympathetic.

We don't know how long he left Leia. It couldn't have been more than a year or two. Kylo Ren isn't that old and it has to be after he was a grown man since it's after him betraying Luke and in the flashback he already looked like a full grown adult.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

As for the portrayal of Han in TFA: it's complicated.

Part of it is that he's too Han. Its been 30 years and he's wearing the same damn outfit doing the same damn shit with the same damn attitude. It's stasis. Ignoring an opportunity tp explore the 3 decades since.

See, I found him much more paternal, much more "hound dog". He certainly had his classic Han quips, but he seemed a lot more worn down. Some of that is just Harrison Ford the man looking rather craggy at this age, but some of it was Harrison Ford the actor trying to convey Han's grief and regret.

The worst written moments to me were his moments with Leia, because the fallout and emotional devastation that situation would/should have created would likely result in a lot more friction. Then again, this is Star Wars, and it's always taken the drama-meter only so far before stopping.

His leaving Leia holding the bag makes him less sympathetic. The acceptable expression of "man-pain" in blockbusters seems to be abnegating all responsibility.

In fairness to Han, he does appear to try and remedy this, wandering out into a sure-death situation to show his son one last example of compassion.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

Well, the crew of the MF would know if they believed in the force since he actively trained there. They were confused because (we can assume) the computer aimed the missile at the opening. We can assume the missile is supposed to curve like that normally (somehow) because all the other bombers were going along the same run and nobody thought it was weird that Luke's missile curved like that.

And DEFINITELY nobody had seen Obi-Wan as a ghost yet, that didn't happen until the end of VI, and I think only Luke saw them like that. Kenobi had been talking to him, but only him.

The missiles wouldn't curve like that without the targeting system, otherwise the system would be irrelevant as all you'd need to do is fire the missiles from a specific point so that the curving system kicks in at the moment when it's just above the opening. They'd tell pilots "get to this point and shoot the missiles". But they tried shooting the missiles from various different points remember.

So basically, Luke used the force to curve the missiles, which is a feat more powerful than anything Rey did and incredible for Luke to do seeing as though he'd never seen anyone use the force for telekinesis.

Well then they'd still have to aim it over the opening from a long distance away. As they pointed out, it was a hard shot. Even if the missiles were pre-programmed to curve, they'd still have to get the missile in the one specific spot where it would, which is what the targeting computer would be there for. I'm pretty sure he didn't use telekinesis because nobody commented on any strangeness in the shot other than he had good aim. And his previous force training was centered around awareness (remember this movie was written properly where people don't just spontaneously gain powers as they need them).

Han saw Obi-Wan disappear, that's an example of the force being used.

Did Han know that was the force being used? We already established that he doesn't believe in the force.

As for Han:

Luke Skywalker: You don't believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I've flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I've seen a lot of strange stuff, but I've never seen *anything* to make me believe that there's one all-powerful Force controlling everything. 'Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It's all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.

I don't think he believes in the force.

Yeah he talks about how he doesn't it controls his life or anyones, like I said. That's different from saying he doesn't believe it exists, he just doesn't think it controls his destiny. Especially given the fact that the Jedi sat near the highest seats of government and their downfall led to the creation of the Empire less that 20 years before. Pretty important events he'd know of.

He says he doesn't believe there's an all-powerful Force controlling everything. Seems pretty cut and dry. And remember, the Jedi were viewed with suspicion and superstition already before 20 years of propaganda made it worse.

I've slept since then, so I think so, but I'm not solid on it. But yes, he beats Finn pretty well and at worst took some damage (though maybe not). But it does make with nice contrast to Rey, who doesn't get her shit wrecked. As much as they move, she doesn't get beaten.

I was reminded that Finn does land one blow then he gets pissed and stops toying with him and takes him out immediately afterwards.

Rey spends that fight getting beat. She's on the backfoot for that entire fight until she taps into the force, she actually spends her time running from him because he's far more powerful. And he's not trying to kill her remember, he's not there to wreck her.

Between her running she stops to deflect his blows. She's competent enough to not be a danger to herself and others. So before she taps into the force, she's better than Finn the soldier. After tapping into the force she's better than Ren one of the only 2 trained lightsaber users in the galaxy (unless Snoke has a lightsaber as well).

There's room for tactics here as well, the Jedi lost to troopers they thought were allies. The ones that realized they were being betrayed took out plenty of troopers on the way down.

Even the ones that realised they were being betrayed didn't take out more than a small handful. Most of them even went down without taking out anyone or even blocking anything. So Ren probably would be able to take out one or two troops before he'd go down, but yeah a squad would be able to take him out like they did Jedi Masters.

That's why, like every other force user ever, his strength isn't in fighting along but fighting with allies. Can't really take him out when he's got an army fighting with him.

That wasn't a viable option against Vader and Sidious, so it made them more threatening. The point here is why is Ren threatening?

Hopefully so. Because ironically it would make him look worse if he lost to them in a stand up fight.

I was reminded that he had the Knights of Ren with him, so he had a team.

Which would help explain why he's such a chump.

I've slept since then. Though she still wouldn't have experience with hyperspace flight.

She never puts the Falcon into hyperspace. Han does.

But if I remember right, she says how to use them and what they should do.

Now I DEFINITELY don't remember Han offering Luke a spot Oh no wait, I remember, it was after they got off the Death Star. and I KNOW Luke didn't show off his 1337 skills aboard the Millennium Falcon.

Yeah, before the final run on the Death Star.

LUKE
So... you got your reward and you're
just leaving then?

HAN
That's right, yeah! I got some old
debts I've got to pay off with this
stuff. Even if I didn't, you don't
think I'd be fool enough to stick
around here, do you? Why don't you
come with us? You're pretty good in
a fight. I could use you.

Indeed, after they've gone on a full mission together and Luke had plenty of time to show what skills he possessed. Compared to Rey's few minutes of talking about the ship.

What I remember from from Luke aboard the MF was him getting shot by training droids trying to learn the most basic force skill and Han telling him to not get cocky because Luke's a decent shot.

He gets shot by training droids right up until Ben tells him to concentrate and use the force, and then he blocks their shots. Very similar to Rey having her moment of serenity on the cliff and suddenly fighting MUCH more effectively. Unless it is your contention that Luke's few minutes of practice were sufficient, we can surmise that simply being Force sensitive was all he required pull off remarkable feats with a lightsaber (and however unimpressive a training droid is as competition, blocking attacks you CANNOT SEE is remarkable).

Luke also admits that his skill isn't sufficient for fighting an armed opponent and the most he uses his skill for is aiming a single shot. Rey with no lightsaber practice beats a dark Jedi. Even if he was wounded, there are worlds of difference between a training droid and a dark Jedi.

She hasn't needed to be saved yet, so no, she's operating at a higher competence than other SW protagonists.

Except for the two times she did need saving. Or did you imagine she was going to flap her wings and fly off Starkiller Base? She never got remotely near a ship. When she finds out Finn has come to save her, she hugs him and says thank you. Not "PFFT I HAD IT COVERED".

But that's where she was going. She's already demonstrated she's perfectly fine piloting a ship and she could easily mind trick her way into getting one (or probably even getting someone to fly her off base).

Compare to Luke who gets attacked by sand people and had no way out only to get into a fight in Mos Eisley where he can't contribute either. He doesn't start contributing until he gets more powerful. There's a steady progression in his power through the films over all. Luke doesn't beat Vader until the third movie. So far we assume Ren to be the #2 bad ass on the enemy team and he lost in the first movie. Either Rey's OP or Ren's a pushover. Neither is good.

I remember Han getting mouthy with people who got mouthy with him (princess) and positioned himself as a cocky know-it-all (having been everywhere and seen everything).

Rey doesn't get mouthy with him, though. She holds him half in awe, is clearly hungry for his approval, and "talks ship" with him (hence him taking a grudging shine to her). He also seems fond of Finn, because Han Solo is a big softy and always has been. Sure, he's a scurrilous rogue who shoots first and asks questions later, but he's never been anything but a melting butterscotch toffee with his friends and associates. Leia was the mistrustful one.

Han was big on talking smack on people who presumed to tell him what to do. Like in that quote I gave, or this one:

Luke: Why don't you outrun them? I thought you said this thing was fast!
Han Solo: Watch your mouth, kid, or you're gonna find yourself floating home!

 

[BloatedGuppy]

But if I remember right, she says how to use them and what they should do.

You do not remember correctly.

Indeed, after they've gone on a full mission together and Luke had plenty of time to show what skills he possessed. Compared to Rey's few minutes of talking about the ship.

Han watches Luke fire a blaster for literally a few seconds, and then almost drown. The rest of the time, Han and Luke are separated. In all frankness, Rey showing she knows her way around a ship was a more convincing job interview than "good in a fight". Han is a Smuggler and freighter captain, not a Bounty Hunter. At the end of the day, Han seems to have a soft spot for the kids he meets in his travels and thinks of daft reasons to offer them a berth.

Luke also admits that his skill isn't sufficient for fighting an armed opponent and the most he uses his skill for is aiming a single shot.

You'll really need to point me to the line in Star Wars where Luke says "My skill isn't sufficient for fighting an armed opponent".

Rey with no lightsaber practice beats a dark Jedi.

So we've returned to "Lightsaber practice".

Spoiler

BEN
I suggest you try it again, Luke.

Ben places a large helmet on Luke's head which covers his
eyes.

BEN
This time, let go your conscious
self and act on instinct.

LUKE
(laughing)
With the blast shield down, I can't
even see. How am I supposed to fight?

BEN
Your eyes can deceive you. Don't
trust them.

Han skeptically shakes his head as Ben throws the seeker
into the air. The ball shoots straight up in the air, then
drops like a rock. Luke swings the lightsaber around blindly
missing the seeker, which fires off a laserbolt which hits
Luke square on the seat of the pants. He lets out a painful
yell and attempts to hit the seeker.

BEN
Stretch out with your feelings.

Luke stands in one place, seemingly frozen. The seeker makes
a dive at Luke and, incredibly, he managed to deflect the
bolt. The ball ceases fire and moves back to its original
position.

BEN
You see, you can do it.

You'll notice Ben tells him to "stretch out with his feelings" and to "trust his instincts". At no point does he say "Tomorrow we'll do three hours of practice thrusts".

She's already demonstrated she's perfectly fine piloting a ship and she could easily mind trick her way into getting one (or probably even getting someone to fly her off base).

She mind tricked a single soldier and now she can easily mind trick the entire base? Mind trick does not work that way. You're engaging in the opposite of "positive speculation here", and just fantasizing scenarios in which everything goes right for Rey to make the argument that everything goes right for Rey. She gets rescued. She thanks her rescuer. That actually HAPPENED.

He doesn't start contributing until he gets more powerful.

He starts contributing immediately, first on the blasters and then in the Death Star. Less than a day has passed. How much "training" did he reasonably receive in that time?

So far we assume Ren to be the #2 bad ass on the enemy team and he lost in the first movie. Either Rey's OP or Ren's a pushover. Neither is good.

Chewbacca, Finn and Rey combine to overcome Kylo Ren, yes.

Han was big on talking smack on people who presumed to tell him what to do. Like in that quote I gave, or this one:

Luke: Why don't you outrun them? I thought you said this thing was fast!
Han Solo: Watch your mouth, kid, or you're gonna find yourself floating home!

Yes, Han talks smack to people who smack talk him or his ship. That's consistent, even in Force Awakens. He's very protective of both Chewy and the Falcon. He does not smack talk everyone who gives him any kind of input whatsoever. What kind of useless character would that be?

 

[crimson5pheonix]

But if I remember right, she says how to use them and what they should do.

You do not remember correctly.

Possibly so, but in any case she shows just as much competence as Han in knowing the Millennium Falcon.

Indeed, after they've gone on a full mission together and Luke had plenty of time to show what skills he possessed. Compared to Rey's few minutes of talking about the ship.

Han watches Luke fire a blaster for literally a few seconds, and then almost drown. The rest of the time, Han and Luke are separated. In all frankness, Rey showing she knows her way around a ship was a more convincing job interview than "good in a fight". Han is a Smuggler and freighter captain, not a Bounty Hunter. At the end of the day, Han seems to have a soft spot for the kids he meets in his travels and thinks of daft reasons to offer them a berth.

Luke by definition makes it through an enemy base, even if he wasn't there to see everything. And Han has a bad habit in getting himself into trouble that he has to shoot out *cough Jabba cough*, so having a spare shooter around is probably a decent priority as well.

Luke also admits that his skill isn't sufficient for fighting an armed opponent and the most he uses his skill for is aiming a single shot.

You'll really need to point me to the line in Star Wars where Luke says "My skill isn't sufficient for fighting an armed opponent".

That one I'll admit I misremembered who said it.

Rey with no lightsaber practice beats a dark Jedi.

So we've returned to "Lightsaber practice".

Spoiler

BEN
I suggest you try it again, Luke.

Ben places a large helmet on Luke's head which covers his
eyes.

BEN
This time, let go your conscious
self and act on instinct.

LUKE
(laughing)
With the blast shield down, I can't
even see. How am I supposed to fight?

BEN
Your eyes can deceive you. Don't
trust them.

Han skeptically shakes his head as Ben throws the seeker
into the air. The ball shoots straight up in the air, then
drops like a rock. Luke swings the lightsaber around blindly
missing the seeker, which fires off a laserbolt which hits
Luke square on the seat of the pants. He lets out a painful
yell and attempts to hit the seeker.

BEN
Stretch out with your feelings.

Luke stands in one place, seemingly frozen. The seeker makes
a dive at Luke and, incredibly, he managed to deflect the
bolt. The ball ceases fire and moves back to its original
position.

BEN
You see, you can do it.

You'll notice Ben tells him to "stretch out with his feelings" and to "trust his instincts". At no point does he say "Tomorrow we'll do three hours of practice thrusts".

And YOU'LL notice that Luke doesn't pick a fight with a lightsaber until the next movie, where he loses horribly. He doesn't win with a lightsaber until he's been under two different masters and spent some time practicing.

She's already demonstrated she's perfectly fine piloting a ship and she could easily mind trick her way into getting one (or probably even getting someone to fly her off base).

She mind tricked a single soldier and now she can easily mind trick the entire base? Mind trick does not work that way. You're engaging in the opposite of "positive speculation here", and just fantasizing scenarios in which everything goes right for Rey to make the argument that everything goes right for Rey. She gets rescued. She thanks her rescuer. That actually HAPPENED.

She was making perfectly good strides in getting herself out of trouble, which is more than I can say for Luke. She has demonstrated the ability to mind trick and she only has to mind trick one person to get off the base. She doesn't even necessarily need to mind trick, Poe and Finn got a ship with no force powers.

He doesn't start contributing until he gets more powerful.

He starts contributing immediately, first on the blasters and then in the Death Star. Less than a day has passed. How much "training" did he reasonably receive in that time?

He got a hold of a bigger weapon. Remember that he already HAD to be rescued twice by this point. The closest Rey had to needing to be rescued, the group finds her escaped from her cell and moving to the ships. Rey has proved far more competent than Luke comparing their first movies together.

So far we assume Ren to be the #2 bad ass on the enemy team and he lost in the first movie. Either Rey's OP or Ren's a pushover. Neither is good.

Chewbacca, Finn and Rey combine to overcome Kylo Ren, yes.

So Ren's a pushover? What's the 8th movie going to be, Ren jogging to Eye of the Tiger looking for a rematch?

Han was big on talking smack on people who presumed to tell him what to do. Like in that quote I gave, or this one:

Luke: Why don't you outrun them? I thought you said this thing was fast!
Han Solo: Watch your mouth, kid, or you're gonna find yourself floating home!

Yes, Han talks smack to people who smack talk him or his ship. That's consistent, even in Force Awakens. He's very protective of both Chewy and the Falcon. He does not smack talk everyone who gives him any kind of input whatsoever. What kind of useless character would that be?

Han Solo: Can't get out that way.
Princess Leia Organa: Looks like you've managed to cut off our only escape route.
Han Solo: [sarcastic] Maybe you'd like it back in your cell, your Highness.

A jerkish character, which is what Han was portrayed as.

 

[Kajin]

And YOU'LL notice that Luke doesn't pick a fight with a lightsaber until the next movie, where he loses horribly. He doesn't win with a lightsaber until he's been under two different masters and spent some time practicing.

Luke was up against an opponent with DECADES of experience. Rey was up against Ren, who is both still in training and had a bowcaster wound through the gut.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

And YOU'LL notice that Luke doesn't pick a fight with a lightsaber until the next movie, where he loses horribly. He doesn't win with a lightsaber until he's been under two different masters and spent some time practicing.

Luke was up against an opponent with DECADES of experience. Rey was up against Ren, who is both still in training and had a bowcaster wound through the gut.

Ren had far more experience than Rey and Vader was asthmatic, what's your point?

 

[Gatx]

I was wondering what bothered me about the movie and this is definitely part of it. Poe Dameron definitely gets to show that he's a good pilot but not before everyone else, even the omniscient narration of the opening crawl, hammers it in blatantly into your face. Being the leader of an X-wing squadron with his own custom painted fighter should be enough for the audience to pick up on that.

And then there's Han and Leia. I was wonder what the heck Han was doing pulling his smuggler schtick again since it seemed like such a fall from grace, then it gets explained by him and Leia as they exposition dump their OWN lives to EACH OTHER.

 

[crimson5pheonix]

And YOU'LL notice that Luke doesn't pick a fight with a lightsaber until the next movie, where he loses horribly. He doesn't win with a lightsaber until he's been under two different masters and spent some time practicing.

Luke was up against an opponent with DECADES of experience. Rey was up against Ren, who is both still in training and had a bowcaster wound through the gut.

Ren had far more experience than Rey and Vader was asthmatic, what's your point?

Ren had barely any close quarters combat training.

It's painfully obvious just by watching the way he fights.

He was trained by Luke and later Snoke, take it up with them if you think so. I actually liked the lightsaber fighting in this movie, it didn't look as stilted as the fighting in the original movies and actually looks dangerous unlike the prequels.