I never died in Dark Souls.

[Alcaste]

If you don't want to take the time to learn the game, then the Capra demon will smash you.

Now, to be honest, even if you do learn the game he's a son of a ***** to kill because you have to execute the necessary actions near perfectly and sometimes your fingers just aren't up to the task. I don't think a lot of people killed him on their first try their first play through.

I'm pretty certain NOBODY killed him on their first playthrough. Death is a part of the observation process. And if you explore the rest of the level before facing him (We've learned by this point that white fog can mean there's a boss, so it's best to explore first) you'll have a pretty easy shortcut to get back without having to fight too many thieves and dogs. You walk in, get smushed, and now you've learned that you need to book it as soon as you enter.

Honestly if your friends are veterans but can't dodge the arrows then I think they just kinda suck. They're fairly easy to run past or dodge so long as you're not wearing heavy armour.

But I will agree that it was dumb design to have that be the first Silver Knight encounter. Even an optional place to fight one would be convenient.

The ridiculously small ledge space means that if you're unlucky, the Silver Knight to the right, with a lucky arrow, can just knock you off, even if you're blocking with a shield. 1 hit kill. Please repeat entire section.

The fact is, however easy or hard it's supposed to be, I haven't played the game since that section. Was going through it at a fast pace beforehand, then that happened.

The trick to the anor londo archers is to use a greatshield if your strength is high enough, or just roll under the arrows as they come. Once you get the timing down its really easy. On my second and third visits I found the lightning demon dudes right before that section more of a pain.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

Dark Souls might not have beaten you, but basic grammar appears to have


Also, you don't have to press 2 buttons to run.

You don't?! o.o.
Well then. I look like a silly x.x
Hahaha. I been holding down two buttons the entire time.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

I'm really tired of seeing.

"There's always x way to do to y and z! DUH! Why didn't you do that?!"

Well.. Because I don't play that way. I'm a pyromancer. I shouldn't put points into strength. I *know* you can get a character with all max stats, and all around badass in every aspect of the game, but I like to play classes. I like having weaknesses and strengths.


Why does everyone feel like I am talking about 90% of the game being cheap?
I am talking about very few encounters that were just plain stupid, and dirty. Not half of the game. So people need to chill the fuck out.

Also people need to stop jumping to conclusions. I'm not sprinting into a new area with dual scimitars waving around, and not noticing things. But when I am in a tight corridor, and go through a door, then get shot by a skeleton archer that's standing 2 inches away from the wall before I even have a chance to turn my camera to view around the room. Yeah, the first death is a cheap one. The second death would be my fault. Yeah, that's a bit cheap.


Did people forget that the end of my post said. I said I loved the game? LOVED IT.

 

[Alcaste]

Skeleton archers have a considerable wind up time. More than enough time to look both ways and raise your shield.

The game isn't cheap. It just doesn't care. It has its mechanics and drops you into the thick of it, and it's up to you to make use of them. That situation is the game telling you "There's an archer here, deal with it if you want I guess. It's going to shoot arrows at you either way."

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

I don't really understand all this apparent clashing of opinions regarding difficulty. I always thought, if you died a lot while playing through a game, that meant it was hard. What is all this redefinition of the term? Dark Souls isn't hard, it's cheap. A game isn't hard if it kills you to teach you, that's just trial-and-error gameplay. A game isn't hard if the enemies are just damage sponges. A game isn't hard if there is a way to survive every encounter, you just need to play careful.

Then what does make a game hard? How exactly is Dark Souls not a difficult game? I find it to be hard. I'm only part way through it right now, but I've died scores of times. I keep running into sections that I can't find any way around because the enemies there kill me every time. Every new section of the game I reach has the potential to stomp me flat because I wasn't ready for it or I don't have the levels and equipment for it. This sounds like "real" difficulty to me.

That said, I have remarked to myself that I don't think Dark Souls is a "cheap" game. You do die a lot, but so far almost every death I have suffered was my fault. The game doesn't manufacture deaths for you out of nothing, it just doesn't allow you many mistakes. If you fuck up, it lets you know it immediately. But only a couple times can I remember dying because of something that seemed wrong or unfair, and those were isolated incidents due more to graphical glitches than the design of the game.

I don't even like really hard games, usually. I hate losing, and I just get mad when I screw up and die, it makes me feel stupid. And I do not like Demon's Souls at all, that game is just too hard and too unforgiving. But I am loving Dark Souls so far, because it does difficulty right. It doesn't cheapen your deaths, and each death can teach you how to avoid it next time. When you die, you don't lose too much progress, and when you succeed, the feeling of victory is delicious. Unlike Demon's Souls, these victories are numerous enough to make it feel like you are advancing in the game, rather than slogging through the same long section again and again for one measly moment of triumph before another wearying trudge through certain death.

I'm loving the game so far, and it's all down to the design hitting the sweet spot between real, fair, and balanced difficulty and opportunities for sweet success.

 

[endtherapture]

I'm really tired of seeing.

"There's always x way to do to y and z! DUH! Why didn't you do that?!"

I agree. It's really annoying when you've built your character one way and then people are suggesting you use stuff that won't fit your built at all.

 

[The-Traveling-Bard]

I don't really understand all this apparent clashing of opinions regarding difficulty. I always thought, if you died a lot while playing through a game, that meant it was hard. What is all this redefinition of the term? Dark Souls isn't hard, it's cheap. A game isn't hard if it kills you to teach you, that's just trial-and-error gameplay. A game isn't hard if the enemies are just damage sponges. A game isn't hard if there is a way to survive every encounter, you just need to play careful.

Then what does make a game hard? How exactly is Dark Souls not a difficult game? I find it to be hard. I'm only part way through it right now, but I've died scores of times. I keep running into sections that I can't find any way around because the enemies there kill me every time. Every new section of the game I reach has the potential to stomp me flat because I wasn't ready for it or I don't have the levels and equipment for it. This sounds like "real" difficulty to me.

That said, I have remarked to myself that I don't think Dark Souls is a "cheap" game. You do die a lot, but so far almost every death I have suffered was my fault. The game doesn't manufacture deaths for you out of nothing, it just doesn't allow you many mistakes. If you fuck up, it lets you know it immediately. But only a couple times can I remember dying because of something that seemed wrong or unfair, and those were isolated incidents due more to graphical glitches than the design of the game.

I don't even like really hard games, usually. I hate losing, and I just get mad when I screw up and die, it makes me feel stupid. And I do not like Demon's Souls at all, that game is just too hard and too unforgiving. But I am loving Dark Souls so far, because it does difficulty right. It doesn't cheapen your deaths, and each death can teach you how to avoid it next time. When you die, you don't lose too much progress, and when you succeed, the feeling of victory is delicious. Unlike Demon's Souls, these victories are numerous enough to make it feel like you are advancing in the game, rather than slogging through the same long section again and again for one measly moment of triumph before another wearying trudge through certain death.

I'm loving the game so far, and it's all down to the design hitting the sweet spot between real, fair, and balanced difficulty and opportunities for sweet success.

*Sigh* So tired of this. I am *not saying the entire game is fucking cheap*. I am talking about very few encounters I thought were cheap, and childish. I also said I have died more from them than I have actually combat.

 

[Alcaste]

I'm curious now, actually. Where is this arrow that instakills you by shooting you off a cliff? The only one I can think of are the silver knight archers in anor londo, and those don't require you do redo 20 minutes of the game because you HAVE to activate the elevator to get there, which creates a shortcut to the bonfire.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Honestly if your friends are veterans but can't dodge the arrows then I think they just kinda suck. They're fairly easy to run past or dodge so long as you're not wearing heavy armour.

But I will agree that it was dumb design to have that be the first Silver Knight encounter. Even an optional place to fight one would be convenient.

The ridiculously small ledge space means that if you're unlucky, the Silver Knight to the right, with a lucky arrow, can just knock you off, even if you're blocking with a shield. 1 hit kill. Please repeat entire section.

The fact is, however easy or hard it's supposed to be, I haven't played the game since that section. Was going through it at a fast pace beforehand, then that happened.

If they're getting knocked off when they block an arrow on that tiny ledge, they're doing it wrong. When the arrow hits you, you'll be sent backward in correlation to the direction you're currently facing, not with the angle at which the arrow hit you. Hug the wall too tightly, an arrow's gonna slide you off the ledge. The ledge is not so tiny that you're going to run off of it if you're not running into the wall.

While I do agree that it's not a very good introduction to combat with a Silver Knight, it really is not based on luck. Keep running and you'll never get hit with an arrow until you reach the ledge that the Silver Knight is standing on. Keep running toward the Silver Knight on the right(while also making sure not to hug the wall too tightly) and you'll only have to block 2-3 arrows by the time you reach him and he draws his sword. And when you make it to him, the other knight is on the other side of a wall and cannot hit you, so you're free to 1v1 that other knight.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

I'm really tired of seeing.

"There's always x way to do to y and z! DUH! Why didn't you do that?!"

Well.. Because I don't play that way. I'm a pyromancer. I shouldn't put points into strength. I *know* you can get a character with all max stats, and all around badass in every aspect of the game, but I like to play classes. I like having weaknesses and strengths.

You are aware that Pyromancers aren't always a squishy mage, right? The only thing that determines a Pyromancy's damage is your Pyromancy Flame. Any character build can use Pyromancy with utmost effectiveness. Even high Strength builds with no Intelligence.

I'm not sure where you're getting this information that you're not supposed to put strength it when you're a Pyromancer, but your sources are lying to you. You can add strength if you like, or choose not to if that doesn't suit the build you're going for.

I'm really tired of seeing.

"There's always x way to do to y and z! DUH! Why didn't you do that?!"

You never told us exactly how you were playing the game. You just told us that you were getting killed by cheap deaths. People were telling you how to avoid said 'cheap deaths.' Any arrow in the game can be blocked by any shield. If you're foolish enough to round a corner without first turning your camera, I hope you have a shield up.

But then, if you're not using a shield, one would think that you already know what you're doing.

 

[endtherapture]

If they're getting knocked off when they block an arrow on that tiny ledge, they're doing it wrong. When the arrow hits you, you'll be sent backward in correlation to the direction you're currently facing, not with the angle at which the arrow hit you. Hug the wall too tightly, an arrow's gonna slide you off the ledge. The ledge is not so tiny that you're going to run off of it if you're not running into the wall.

It hit me off. Multiple times. Why is the ledge's hitbox different from the actual graphical size of the ledge? Stupid.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

If they're getting knocked off when they block an arrow on that tiny ledge, they're doing it wrong. When the arrow hits you, you'll be sent backward in correlation to the direction you're currently facing, not with the angle at which the arrow hit you. Hug the wall too tightly, an arrow's gonna slide you off the ledge. The ledge is not so tiny that you're going to run off of it if you're not running into the wall.

It hit me off. Multiple times. Why is the ledge's hitbox different from the actual graphical size of the ledge? Stupid.

It isn't. Honestly, I believe you're over exaggerating the difficulty of this particular section of the game. If you're turned to a certain angle when you're struck by an arrow, you're gonna slide off the ledge. You can also slightly turn your character when he fires, so that when you're struck by the arrow, you'll slide back against the wall(which is a bit more difficult to pull off than simply running straight). If you're having trouble blocking the arrows, you can also time it and dodge the arrows, even if you dodge toward the wall. A single Knight fires slow enough that even a mid-roll build can successfully dodge every arrow they fire.

Of course, I'm not trying to say that it's not a difficult section, don't get me wrong. The first two Silver Knights are easily the most stressful point in the game, for me. But the extent to which I'm seeing it talked about, the difficulty is blown out of proportion.

 

[endtherapture]

It isn't. Honestly, I believe you're over exaggerating the difficulty of this particular section of the game. If you're turned to a certain angle when you're struck by an arrow, you're gonna slide off the ledge. You can also slightly turn your character when he fires, so that when you're struck by the arrow, you'll slide back against the wall(which is a bit more difficult to pull off than simply running straight). If you're having trouble blocking the arrows, you can also time it and dodge the arrows, even if you dodge toward the wall. A single Knight fires slow enough that even a mid-roll build can successfully dodge every arrow they fire.

Of course, I'm not trying to say that it's not a difficult section, don't get me wrong. The first two Silver Knights are easily the most stressful point in the game, for me. But the extent to which I'm seeing it talked about, the difficulty is blown out of proportion.

Fact is, that part of the game made me quit for months. I might go back to it sometime, but honestly Anor Londo is such a boring, un-atomospheric area compared to places that came before that getting through it will be a big hog.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Fact is, that part of the game made me quit for months. I might go back to it sometime, but honestly Anor Londo is such a boring, un-atomospheric area compared to places that came before that getting through it will be a big hog.

Fair enough. I rather enjoyed Anor Londo, once I got inside the castle. Although my favorite area would have to be the Painted World of Ariamis.

Fun fact: Contrary to popular opinion, Crossbreed Priscilla actually does have scales. Only around the base of her neck, but they exist, nonetheless.

 

[TheVampwizimp_v1legacy]

I don't really understand all this apparent clashing of opinions regarding difficulty. I always thought, if you died a lot while playing through a game, that meant it was hard. What is all this redefinition of the term? Dark Souls isn't hard, it's cheap. A game isn't hard if it kills you to teach you, that's just trial-and-error gameplay. A game isn't hard if the enemies are just damage sponges. A game isn't hard if there is a way to survive every encounter, you just need to play careful.

Then what does make a game hard? How exactly is Dark Souls not a difficult game? I find it to be hard. I'm only part way through it right now, but I've died scores of times. I keep running into sections that I can't find any way around because the enemies there kill me every time. Every new section of the game I reach has the potential to stomp me flat because I wasn't ready for it or I don't have the levels and equipment for it. This sounds like "real" difficulty to me.

That said, I have remarked to myself that I don't think Dark Souls is a "cheap" game. You do die a lot, but so far almost every death I have suffered was my fault. The game doesn't manufacture deaths for you out of nothing, it just doesn't allow you many mistakes. If you fuck up, it lets you know it immediately. But only a couple times can I remember dying because of something that seemed wrong or unfair, and those were isolated incidents due more to graphical glitches than the design of the game.

I don't even like really hard games, usually. I hate losing, and I just get mad when I screw up and die, it makes me feel stupid. And I do not like Demon's Souls at all, that game is just too hard and too unforgiving. But I am loving Dark Souls so far, because it does difficulty right. It doesn't cheapen your deaths, and each death can teach you how to avoid it next time. When you die, you don't lose too much progress, and when you succeed, the feeling of victory is delicious. Unlike Demon's Souls, these victories are numerous enough to make it feel like you are advancing in the game, rather than slogging through the same long section again and again for one measly moment of triumph before another wearying trudge through certain death.

I'm loving the game so far, and it's all down to the design hitting the sweet spot between real, fair, and balanced difficulty and opportunities for sweet success.

*Sigh* So tired of this. I am *not saying the entire game is fucking cheap*. I am talking about very few encounters I thought were cheap, and childish. I also said I have died more from them than I have actually combat.

If you're dying more from cheap, childish encounters than fair and straightforward combat, then that sure does sound like you're calling the majority of the game cheap.

I know you are on the record as saying that you do love the game regardless, so why are we dwelling on the relatively few unenjoyable moments? As I said, and I admit my experience is incomplete, I have not found any area yet that has been unfair or made me think it was made to piss me off. Maybe you just want to complain, which is fair enough, every game has legitimate things to complain about, I'm just not sure this is one of them.

Edit: My captcha says "abide with me." A bit creepy, but maybe it just wants us to come to a friendly understanding?

 

[HellRaid]

Dark Souls is full of cheap deaths but in return it also fully encourages you to cause cheap deaths as well by abusing its game mechanics. If you don't abuse anything, it'll never be a fair fight.

My first ever game, I killed the first Black Knight you find (in the undead burgh) by accidentally pushing him off a cliff. He dropped the Black Knight Sword and I've been using it ever since. I am super-overpowered and I don't feel guilty in the slightest.
I killed another Black Knight by (again accidentally) locking him into a place where he couldn't reach me with his weapon properly. He went down easy and the game rewarded me with the Black Knight Halberd.

I know these are just flukes but they never seem to drop anything interesting when I kill them normally haha.

 

[Fractral]

snip

Dark souls is probably one of the few games around here which if you insult nobody will take your side, regardless of whatever else you say.
Anyway, I haven't finished the game myself but I'm working on it. I'm on Anor Londo at the moment, but I keep getting lost and then killed by silver knights. I never even managed to kill the archers; they fell off the ledges before I could get to them.
It's true that there is a whole lot that isn't explained, though. I've so far avoided having to use Pyromancy, miracles weapon ascension, poise, parrying and kicking, mainly because I either don't know how to use them or haven't been able to pull them off reliably. Still possible though. My biggest complaint is the absolutely colossal slowdowns I had in blighttown, which led to a bunch of deaths that could have otherwise been avoided.

 

[Casual Shinji]

Also people need to stop jumping to conclusions. I'm not sprinting into a new area with dual scimitars waving around, and not noticing things. But when I am in a tight corridor, and go through a door, then get shot by a skeleton archer that's standing 2 inches away from the wall before I even have a chance to turn my camera to view around the room. Yeah, the first death is a cheap one. The second death would be my fault. Yeah, that's a bit cheap.

That's what I always found "charming" about the the game though; It doesn't like you, and will use whatever cheap trick it can to kick you out. Sen's Fortress is the epitome of this.

 

[Johnny Novgorod]

Seriously, am I the only person on the entire planet who messes around with the buttons to figure out what does what before I start actually digging into the meat of a game?

No.
I thought everyone did that....

All the times I've had to ask that question in the last week or two, you'd be surprised how many people apparently don't.

I instinctively press EVERY button to see which does what whenever I start playing a new game. Of course that means I always start with minus one bullet/throwable object, but hey, at least now I know!

 

[Bruenin]

Dark Souls has some obscure stuff in it like how Dexterity increases casting speed and such and I know a few people who got confused over the lettering for weapons and stuff, they'd use these big 'strong' weapons that weren't tailored to their skills at ALL and the damage wasn't as good as it should have been :/, I don't know if it's the xbox or what but I can't backstab or parry, I've tried but it doesn't work, sometimes i'll backstab them when i'm in front of them instead o.o