I shall now say unkind things about Dark Souls.

[Exius Xavarus]

Running to the fog gate and then making it fall off the cliff is not a glitch, that's intentional. Unless you meant something else, then I'm curious to hear about it. On almost all my characters I've had quite a lot of trouble with it. Only on my witch it was really easy, because I could kill it in three hits by the time I got that far.

I've always wondered just how people do that. I can never get him to walk off the cliff. He never goes anywhere NEAR it, for me. Instead, he'll stand in the area where the Taurus Demons are at(relative to his position) and shoot fire at me, shouting "Come at me, bro!" until I go kill him.

Honestly, I think Dark Souls has a beautiful aesthetic. Sure it's not the greatest when you look at places from far away, but I always thought places like Undead Parish, Sen's Fortress, Anor Londo and Ash Lake to be amazingly beautiful areas to look at. Especially Ash Lake.

 

[TheGreatAndPowerfulZOG]

Dude, what do you want? Infinite retries on boss battles? Yeah, you have to fight a couple guys to get back to the boss. Honestly, the trip to the Capra demon should only take you a minute or two, which is way better than a lot of video games that would make you replay half the level to get another shot at the boss. I mean, look at Zelda, you die to a boss and you start at the beginning of the dungeon! If you find yourself playing the same sequence over and over again, maybe you should consider trying a different area until you've leveled up/gotten better at the game. Dark Souls often lets you access enemies that you aren't ready to kill, it's on you to determine that. There is almost always another path that you could explore if you find yourself stuck.

And COME ON, the game is beautiful. This is a game where there is a built in system for telling other players to admire the "gorgeous view" over the internet!

 

[NotSoLoneWanderer]

Use Iron Flesh whenever you get to a Capra demon. Essentially easy mode.

 

[Exius Xavarus]

Use Iron Flesh whenever you get to a Capra demon. Essentially easy mode.

That, or simply roll past him and the dogs, run up the stairs and stand atop the doorway at the top. Capra will RARELY be able to get up there, and by rarely, I mean once every few characters. Normally, he'll just hop at you with his overhead swing, which can be blocked. ORRR he'll sit underneath you, fruitlessly swinging his swords making it easy for you to kill the dogs and fight him one on one.

...Well, my way's a bit more difficult than the Iron Flesh route, but I like it better due to Iron Flesh being, at least for me, kind of boring. :x

 

[Zhukov]

If you are having trouble with the capra-demon instead of complaining about the cannon fodder why don't you ask for help?

Because I'm not having trouble with the boss fights. I killed the capra demon before making this thread.

My complaint is having to trudge my way through ten minutes of boring repeated combat before I can fight the damn boss. It's bad design, no matter how you look at it.

 

[TheGreatAndPowerfulZOG]

If you are having trouble with the capra-demon instead of complaining about the cannon fodder why don't you ask for help?

Because I'm not having trouble with the boss fights. I killed the capra demon before making this thread.

My complaint is having to trudge my way through ten minutes of boring repeated combat before I can fight the damn boss. It's bad design, no matter how you look at it.

Dude, do you have that much trouble with the skeletons and thieves? By the time you get to Mr. Capra, those guys should take like one or two hits, or you can run by most of them. And seriously, quit bitching, it's all of two hundred meters away from the bonfire. What the fuck games have you been playing that don't set you back AT ALL for failing a boss fight? That there sounds like some bad design to me...

 

[Zhukov]

If you are having trouble with the capra-demon instead of complaining about the cannon fodder why don't you ask for help?

Because I'm not having trouble with the boss fights. I killed the capra demon before making this thread.

My complaint is having to trudge my way through ten minutes of boring repeated combat before I can fight the damn boss. It's bad design, no matter how you look at it.

Dude, do you have that much trouble with the skeletons and thieves? By the time you get to Mr. Capra, those guys should take like one or two hits, or you can run by most of them. And seriously, quit bitching, it's all of two hundred meters away from the bonfire. What the fuck games have you been playing that don't set you back AT ALL for failing a boss fight? That there sounds like some bad design to me...

That's exactly the problem. The game is making me repeat the easy fights over and over again so I can get to the fun fights. I'm not "having trouble" with skeletons and thieves, they're just boring me silly and wasting my time. I explained this in the OP.

Even if I was to just run past the filler enemies, why make me do that? It's still a waste of my time for no good reason.

Well designed games set you back to the last point you reached to avoid needless repetition whithout defanging the challenge. Very well designed games have a fucking quicksave button. Sadly, Dark Souls is neither.

Also, "quit bitching" is not a valid response to criticism. If it was, I would just tell you to quit bitching about my bitching.

 

[TheGreatAndPowerfulZOG]

snip

Sounds like this game was just not meant for you if you're getting bored and frustrated by literally just running down two hallways to reach a boss fight. Maybe you should go play Uncharted or something, with quicksaves every 5 seconds and recharging health.

 

[Zhukov]

snip

Sounds like this game was just not meant for you if you're getting bored and frustrated by literally just running down two hallways to reach a boss fight. Maybe you should go play Uncharted or something, with quicksaves every 5 seconds and recharging health.

Ah, now we're resorting to that are we? You don't have to get upset because someone criticises a game you like. I wasn't even being particularly harsh or aggressive with my criticism. If I was I would have mentioned the inconsistent weapon physics, imprecise controls and bad voice acting.

I'm not getting bored and frustrated by running down hallways. I am getting bored and disinterested by having to needlessly repeat simple steps after dying.

Also, the Uncharted games don't have quicksaves. If you must make sneering comments, at least make sure they are factually correct.

 

[Aeonknight]

If you are having trouble with the capra-demon instead of complaining about the cannon fodder why don't you ask for help?

Because I'm not having trouble with the boss fights. I killed the capra demon before making this thread.

My complaint is having to trudge my way through ten minutes of boring repeated combat before I can fight the damn boss. It's bad design, no matter how you look at it.

Dude, do you have that much trouble with the skeletons and thieves? By the time you get to Mr. Capra, those guys should take like one or two hits, or you can run by most of them. And seriously, quit bitching, it's all of two hundred meters away from the bonfire. What the fuck games have you been playing that don't set you back AT ALL for failing a boss fight? That there sounds like some bad design to me...

That's exactly the problem. The game is making me repeat the easy fights over and over again so I can get to the fun fights. I'm not "having trouble" with skeletons and thieves, they're just boring me silly and wasting my time. I explained this in the OP.

Even if I was to just run past the filler enemies, why make me do that? It's still a waste of my time for no good reason.

Well designed games set you back to the last point you reached to avoid needless repetition whithout defanging the challenge. Very well designed games have a fucking quicksave button. Sadly, Dark Souls is neither.

Also, "quit bitching" is not a valid response to criticism. If it was, I would just tell you to quit bitching about my bitching.

Did it ever occur to you that said trash mobs are part of the game's overall goal to frustrate you? Seems to be working very well I'd say. After you run the same run to the boss 3 or 4 times, you get impatient. When you get impatient you start wanting to just run by everything. Then you start taking hits you didn't take the first time through, which puts you at a disadvantage when you finally get to the boss. If you're disciplined then you don't rush, but then you get to deal with that tedious feeling you've described. Pick your poison. Or better yet, stop dying.

And really... you've barely scratched the surface and you're bored already? Maybe this game really isn't for you.

 

[TheGreatAndPowerfulZOG]

snip

Sounds like this game was just not meant for you if you're getting bored and frustrated by literally just running down two hallways to reach a boss fight. Maybe you should go play Uncharted or something, with quicksaves every 5 seconds and recharging health.

Ah, now we're resorting to that are we? You don't have to get upset because someone criticises a game you like. I wasn't even being particularly harsh or aggressive with my criticism. If I was I would have mentioned the inconsistent weapon physics, imprecise controls and bad voice acting.

I'm not getting bored and frustrated by running down hallways. I am getting bored and disinterested by having to needlessly repeat simple steps after dying.

Also, the Uncharted games don't have quicksaves. If you must make sneering comments, at least make sure they are factually correct.

What do you want me to say? You're complaining because a game sends you back a couple steps after you die. I mean, I would hate to hear your thoughts on any console game made before 2005.

I meant to say autosave about Uncharted, but on the topic of quicksaves: it's shit game design. It removes all risk from the equation, and therefore all tension. Dark Souls heavily relies on a tension/release reward sytem, and that would have been completely dismantled if quicksaves were possible. Quicksaves are nice for developers, because it lets them completely ignore things like pacing and difficulty curves.

 

[Zhukov]

Did it ever occur to you that said trash mobs are part of the game's overall goal to frustrate you? Seems to be working very well I'd say. After you run the same run to the boss 3 or 4 times, you get impatient. When you get impatient you start wanting to just run by everything. Then you start taking hits you didn't take the first time through, which puts you at a disadvantage when you finally get to the boss. If you're disciplined then you don't rush, but then you get to deal with that tedious feeling you've described. Pick your poison. Or better yet, stop dying.

And really... you've barely scratched the surface and you're bored already? Maybe this game really isn't for you.

It doesn't make me frustrated. It makes me bored.

Bordom is the very worst reaction that any game can elicit from the player. Unless you want to try and tell me it "part of the game's overall goal to bore me".

Also, "this game isn't for you" is still no excuse for bad design.

 

[Zhukov]

What do you want me to say? You're complaining because a game sends you back a couple steps after you die. I mean, I would hate to hear your thoughts on any console game made before 2005.

I meant to say autosave about Uncharted, but on the topic of quicksaves: it's shit game design. It removes all risk from the equation, and therefore all tension. Dark Souls heavily relies on a tension/release reward sytem, and that would have been completely dismantled if quicksaves were possible. Quicksaves are nice for developers, because it lets them completely ignore things like pacing and difficulty curves.

No, I am complaining because it forces me to perform needless repetition.

Perhaps this would work better phrased as a question: What is gained by making me run down hallways and repeat easy fights before getting back to a challenging boss fight?

 

[Aeonknight]

Did it ever occur to you that said trash mobs are part of the game's overall goal to frustrate you? Seems to be working very well I'd say. After you run the same run to the boss 3 or 4 times, you get impatient. When you get impatient you start wanting to just run by everything. Then you start taking hits you didn't take the first time through, which puts you at a disadvantage when you finally get to the boss. If you're disciplined then you don't rush, but then you get to deal with that tedious feeling you've described. Pick your poison. Or better yet, stop dying.

And really... you've barely scratched the surface and you're bored already? Maybe this game really isn't for you.

It doesn't make me frustrated. It makes me bored.

Bordom is the very worst reaction that any game can elicit from the player. Unless you want to try and tell me it "part of the game's overall goal to bore me".

Also, "this game isn't for you" is still no excuse for bad design.

It's not bad design if it's working as intended. To elaborate, I've noticed a few times that after just trying to run past everything, the same trash mobs you can easily dispatch are destroying me simply because I'm not giving them the attention they deserve. They're placed very specifically to get cheap shots on the guy who rushes by quickly.

Combine subtle but very specific enemy placement with a checkpoint system that respawns the monsters every time you use it, and bosses that can kill you numerous times, and suddenly their purpose becomes very obvious. The point of the trash mobs is to punish the impatient gamer in a completely fair manner. That's brilliant game design, even if you don't have a taste for it.

Your criticism of tedium is a moot point anyway. This is present in all games. You replay the exact same section over and over in any shooter, JRPG, platformer, etc. and you're going to get bored. If you want to stop replaying the same portion, like I said earlier, stop dying. It is literally that simple.

 

[Zhukov]

Your criticism of tedium is a moot point anyway. This is present in all games. You replay the exact same section over and over in any shooter, JRPG, platformer, etc. and you're going to get bored.

No. No it is not.

In a good game - a well designed game - I complete a section, save or hit a checkpoint and then tackle the next part. If I fail that next part I am returned to the beginning of the part I failed, not the part I have already done. For a good example, see Super Meat Boy. Brutally difficult, but avoids needless repetition. Imagine how much worse that game would be if dying sent you back three stages and forced you to complete them again instead of just back to the beginning of the current stage.

In a poorly designed game like Dark Souls, I complete a section, tackle the next section, fail, then complete the first section again for no good reason before being allowed to retry the next one.

Incidentally, there's a third option of failure not impacting progression (eg. X-Com) but not many games do that.

 

[Aeonknight]

Your criticism of tedium is a moot point anyway. This is present in all games. You replay the exact same section over and over in any shooter, JRPG, platformer, etc. and you're going to get bored.

No. No it is not.

In a good game - a well designed game - I complete a section, save or hit a checkpoint and then tackle the next part. If I fail that next part I am returned to the beginning of the part I failed, not the part I have already done.

In a poorly designed game like Dark Souls, I complete a section, tackle the next section, fail, then complete the first section again for no good reason before being allowed to retry the next one.

Incidentally, there's a third option of failure not impacting progression (eg. X-Com) but not many games do that.

Go lose to a boss fight in any RPG and try to kill it 4 different times, then come back here and tell me you aren't bored after the 4th attempt.

Actually, do whatever you want. I'm not going to waste my time further trying to convince someone to like a game. You're obviously dead set on hating the game after a whole 30 minutes of gameplay, your loss.

 

[TheGreatAndPowerfulZOG]

What do you want me to say? You're complaining because a game sends you back a couple steps after you die. I mean, I would hate to hear your thoughts on any console game made before 2005.

I meant to say autosave about Uncharted, but on the topic of quicksaves: it's shit game design. It removes all risk from the equation, and therefore all tension. Dark Souls heavily relies on a tension/release reward sytem, and that would have been completely dismantled if quicksaves were possible. Quicksaves are nice for developers, because it lets them completely ignore things like pacing and difficulty curves.

No, I am complaining because it forces me to perform needless repetition.

Perhaps this would work better phrased as a question: What is gained by making me run down hallways and repeat easy fights before getting back to a challenging boss fight?

I don't understand what setup you would prefer. You want a checkpoint right before the boss room? To my mind, that would encourage grinding much more than the current system. If you find yourself getting bored repeating a sequence, that's a good indication that you aren't ready for that fight yet. I didn't kill Capra until I had already made it most of the way through Darkroot Gardens and Blighttown. When I hit a wall in Darkroot, I remembered Capra and I reckoned that I was ready to take him down.

If you would rather that the enemies perma-die, well, I just don't think that would be very fun in a non-linear exploration game. Imagine Metroid Prime if the enemies never came back! It would get really boring, and honestly, lonely. The point of having the enemies respawn is to keep the world active and dangerous and exciting. Those guys may be easy, but they'll wreck your shit at any level if you aren't paying attention.

I don't know, man. I found the combat in that game fun. Doesn't every game make you fight the same enemies over and over? If it's a good game, isn't that what you want? I mean, how many times did you play the same level in Mario Bros., over and over and over, just to die on some trap at the end? I actually like that kind of thing. I like to zen out and try to clear a familiar area with perfect form, not taking any damage. I think that's part of the satisfaction that I got out of a lot of old-school games, and very few modern games. Dark Souls and Catherine I think were the only ones all of last year that gave me that feeling. I can understand if you don't dig that, you're probably busy and you don't want to do something that you feel is a waste of time. I get that. But I think it is a deliberate game design choice, and it's meant to appeal to a niche crowd among which I count myself.