I take 40k seriously I and I find it fun as Hell

[Ed130 The Vanguard]

I like 40k myself but it hard to take a universe seriously when their machines are repaired though the power of prayer.

You do realise its not literal prayer, but to them, knowledge and technology is the religion right? They just say a prayer as they're repairing. Preparing a machine for battle is actual diagnostics and loading, but it has become a ritual. Its actually really quite an interesting take on religion.

yeah i realize some of the prayers/rituals are like that the lasgun litanies for example but then they have prayer censors and such for bigger operations that have little to do with actually fixing the tech.

Considering the setting where you can summon demons and have saints come back to life through the power of faith I'll say the chanting and incense helps, or at least is a good idea just in case.

I dent to find inspiration in the universe due to how dark the universe is. No matter what juggernaut rushes at humanity there is always someone ready to stand in-front of it, with a gun in one hand and flipping the bird with the other.

Of course he tends to die horribly but he does stop or at least slow it down.

Plus the the dark makes the jokes even funnier.

 

[J Tyran]

I like 40k myself but it hard to take a universe seriously when their machines are repaired though the power of prayer.

You do realise its not literal prayer, but to them, knowledge and technology is the religion right? They just say a prayer as they're repairing. Preparing a machine for battle is actual diagnostics and loading, but it has become a ritual. Its actually really quite an interesting take on religion.

yeah i realize some of the prayers/rituals are like that the lasgun litanies for example but then they have prayer censors and such for bigger operations that have little to do with actually fixing the tech.

The prayers are for the machines spirit and to thank the machine god, they do actually make physical repairs as well. There is a machine god and machines do have a spirit. The machines have spirits simply because the humans believe they have them, the warp and psychic forces are a very real part of the world and the machine god is a powerful god like entity thats been around for billions of years and has a tendency to enslave biological life through cybernetics. Ork technology is the same in many respects, it works because the orks believe it works even though they physically shouldn't.

 

[DrunkenMonkey]

taking a story too seriously means one of two things, you are invested in the world or the character, or you are deeply interested in the subject matter and philosophy a story has to tell, OP I'm taking a guess that you are actually in in the first group. 40k has no intrinsic value aside from entertainment

edit: above is my opinion before any of you get your panties bunched

 

[Hagi]

I don't really think Warhammer 40k is dark, the whole thing is just too ridiculous to be called dark.

Darkness requires light, a dark setting requires always a glimmer of hope. Hopelessness is the anathema of such a setting.

Warhammer 40k has no hope. At all. It doesn't even set itself up to have a bit and then snuff it out. It doesn't even try to present anything that could in any way or form be construed as hope. It's slogan says it all: In the grim darkness of the far future there's only war. Therefore it's not a genuine dark setting, there's no hope to be either squashed at the end of it in a grim realization that life is futile or to be forever chased in a useless quest for meaning.

It sets itself very differently right away. There's no hope, there will never be hope, there will always be this war so might as well grab the biggest freaking gun I've got and blast my hated enemies to as many small squishy bits as possible.

 

[bastardofmelbourne]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warhammer_40,000:_Rogue_Trader

Might not want to be so quick to assume there.

I suspect she was discussing the Fantasy Flight Games tabletop RPG Rogue Trader, as opposed to the first edition of the Warhammer 40,000 tabletop rules set, titled Warhammer 40,000: Rogue Trader. The FFG title does not directly involve miniatures.

Within the market of table-top miniature games, 40K is as mainstream as a person can get.

This is a nonsensical statement. The market of tabletop miniatures is hardly mainstream in the first place. You have simply revised your categorisation so that it fits your statement retroactively. In doing so, you have rendered the metaphor meaningless, since "mainstream" means nothing if you define it as "mainstream within a set niche market."

Having seen leaked pics of the new Dark Angels models, I strongly disagree with this claim.

This also makes no sense. Were the new models uncreative because you didn't like them? Does this set of models represent the entire canon of Warhammer artistic output over thirty years?

I didn't talk down to anyone. Enhance your calm, John Spartan.

I quote:

I find it useful to remember (and remind others) that the hobby really isn't all that much different from playing with dollies.

You're right; your behaviour has all the hallmarks of a mature and respectful discussion between equals.

/serious mode: you are obviously not making an honest comment on the topic, and if you are, you are an amazingly obtuse person. I don't like arguing with dishonest people, and I don't like arguing with obtuse people, so if it's fine by you I will avoid arguing in the hopes that we can step back and let the original topic of the thread return to the centre stage.

 

[Commissar Sae]

Yeah... that's a big problem for me. If the entire narrative of your game can be easily disposed of, then by definition your game has a pretty terrible narrative.

That's... that's not what he meant. It's like trying to have a narrative for a game of chess if you are playing the tabletop.

Chess does not by design have a narrative. 40K does.

Actually it kind of does. The whole idea is that chess is based on the idea of regicide being required to end bloody warfare. You are each essentially the kings of rival medieval armies your goal is to ensure an end to the war by defeating the rival lord. Chess has a narrative by design.

OT: I always kind of like the wider world around 40K. A lot of the Grimdark stuff that has been showcased recently is somewhat silly to me, but I always preferred the Guard stories over the space marines anyway. The setting is only this hopeless waste at a superficial level, and the more you look at the setting the more opportunities show up. That's why my game of choice is pretty much Dark Heresy these days. Because there is a lot that can be done with the setting that the fluff and the tabletop does not allow for. Hell I just had a campaign where the party was trapped in a Napoleonic tech world and had to find a way to stop a cult from releasing an ancient demon while trying to make their way around with limited tech. That is something the setting allows for that many others would not. Anyway, generally enjoy 40K but some of the new stuff is rather silly.

 

[J Tyran]

In Design: I could go on for ages about this, but the design of the miniatures for both games is extremely shallow. In neither game is any pretense at realism even attempted. Characters have inhuman proportions, with ridiculously exaggerated limbs and weapons, to the degree that GW is infamous for using a "heroic" scale differing from other more realistic games. But in any case the current design aesthetic for GW is as appropriately described by Yahtzee in one of his reviews, like someone started drawing a character and never stopped. Rather than create characters with depth that convey what they are about through their sense of motion or mood like vastly superior designers (ex: Red Box Games, Infinity), GW establishes what the figures are about by mercilessly tacking on accessories onto every figure until they look like they're carrying their entire knick-knack shelf on their person.

absolutely correct! those "superior" and more "realistic" designs dont do any of those things at all.......

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Well, maybe I should clear this up a little bit. I don't really have that much exposure to the 40k universe, directly exposure anyway. Really all I've done for that is play the Kill Team and Space Marine video games. That being said, I have this one borderline insane friend (insane in a good way) who loves to go on and on and on about it, to the point where I like to think that I know a fair amount about the universe, in addition to reading a fair chunk of the lore online.

I also have a few friends like that, and have done some research of my own. One problem a lot of fans are having is they feel the lore is being ruined by the current head writer, who i'm told has an actual, physical erection for one small group of spacemarines (though this of course I cannot confirm in a literal OR figurative sense)

A thing that I notice a lot about 40k online is that people constantly dismiss 40k as too dark to take seriously, I think we remember that thread from way back when asking how people could find 40k's story remotely appealing, when it's constantly dark, it sucks to be everyone and there is next to no hope of survival so why should you bother? Well, maybe it's my inner masochist talking, the one that likes Dark Souls, but that's half of the fun. Standing on the brink of oblivion, with there being a one in a million chance of you actually being able to salvage the terrible situation that your world is in and fighting on anyway is just something that I like.

I don't think it's too DARK to take seriously, and anyone who does is woefully inexperience with a lot of fiction. The reason you can't take it seriously is because it's a cartoon. It's like a parody of the genre.

But really the main point of this thread isn't simply to hammer in my own opinion on a franchise (mostly) it's to kind of make a point. The wonderful thing about fiction is that it's already detached from reality to a certain point. I've watched the first two seasons of Game of Thrones and read a good chunk of what's going to happen later on in a Song of Ice and Fire and I can't help but notice that world's where just about everything is screwed seemed to be fairly popular. My theory is that people like dark oppressive worlds because it helps build character, for better or for worst, it shows what people do under the stress of the situation, what lengths they'll go to in order to keep living or to fight for what they'll believe in, and I think that deep down inside we all want to see them beat the odds and come out on top even if we know they won't because we all love an underdog.

But that's the thing, fiction has to have some sort of ground to it, or be entirely divorced from reality. 40K has no ground. It is balls-out crazy all the time. But it's balls-out crazy that ACTS like its grimdark serious shit. It tries to pull off grim'n'gritty realism with More Dakka, and fails because of it. The only way to enjoy it by taking it seriously is to be 13 and not know better. It's a setting devoid of characters and plot, only shouting, bullet-spewing meattanks and ERMAGERD DEATH AND STUFF BLARGHSKDJFAFAPVA. So its perfectly reasonable to ENJOY it, but but to take it seriously. Because it isn't serious. at all. Also, there are no underdogs in the 40k universe, because EVERYONE is a suicide squad.

Now, obviously thats all just my opinion, so feel free to ignore it. In the meantime I'm gonna go play Paranoia