I think i just conclusively proved fate or a soul exists - just for fun discussion

[AnkaraTheFallen]

These are 100% predictable and constant. As such how can anything be random.. how can anything deviate from one set path?

I'm sorry to say, but this is wrong... people have concious thought and can make decisions... these can never be predicted, everyone has a slightly different reaction to everything and never acts the same in the same situation... this was the main argument that also proved that we are unable to predict the future

Yeah a soul. Your brain works with partical collisions and electric impulses. Even random impulse jumps to make creativity or different brain make ups to give different reactions to situations can be predicted, electricity is predictable. So its fate. Or a soul. This concious thought you speak of should be predictable. Or theres a soul.

Yes... Sorry my point was that people have a concious. That's what we can't predict... two people, who have the exact same life, can make drastically different choices from the same thing. What this is supposed to show is that rather than there being one set future, all futures are actually played out... multiple universe theory.

 

[Mogg01]

I figure that regardless of what we can know or not know, that partical DOES have a speed and a location, regardless of if we can know it or not. It still follows laws.

OR else every tiny ounce of free will is because of the tiny leeway in location or momentun, a margin of uncertainty if you will, as small as a plank... That seems very miniscule.

This is, in fact, completely wrong, which is the problem with your entire argument. Not only can we not know both momentum and position perfectly, but particles cannot have them both perfectly defined at the same time. If you had actually read the article, you would have known that. I can prove it to you, and the article in fact does, but only if you've taken some fairly advanced math and physics, which it is clear you have not. For further research that you will not do, look up either wave/particle duality or the dual slit experiment. Both will give strong evidence that the universe is not deterministic, but rather is based on probability. Which means, in short, that you can not predict anything perfectly. Ever.

I am not, in fact, an atheist, I just hate people who do no research on a subject then claim that they have proved something profound. Seriously, if it was that easy, don't you think physicists would have mentioned it already?

 

[archvile93]

I think ive just proved we have a soul. Either that or fate.

How did you prove souls exist with this? I'm sorry, but the only evidence for souls you seem to bring up is that the alternative is too depressing, which does not make it correct. Yes I've heard this theory, and it seems accurate to me, though I'm not sure you could ever build a device capapble of factoring in everything you would need to make these predictions fast enough. I just don't think about, like death and my annoying cousins I never talk about.

 

[AnkaraTheFallen]

In short: I don't quite see how the uncertainty principle disproves a predetermined fate.

What is the difference between something that does not exist, and something that is impossible to detect even in principle?

If (because of the uncertainty principle) there is fundamentally no way to predict exactly what will happen, then events aren't predetermined. You could imagine events being predetermined 'behind the scenes', but since we can't distinguish that situation from the one where events are not predetermined at all, we must consider them to be the same.

this was the main argument that also proved that we are unable to predict the future

But we are able to predict the future. I predict that tomorrow the sun will rise, and it will be at least 5 degrees Celsius outside around here in the afternoon, and that if I were to throw a ball upwards unobstructed, it would come back down.
Joking aside, my point is that while we can't predict the future exactly or infallibly, we can certainly make useful and true predictions about the future.

Yes... but these are generalisations... for all we know the sun may explode in the night, or the temperature may suddenly drop. Those are general ideas based on what has happened previously, but we can't know what will definitely happen in the future.

 

[AnOriginalConcept]

What about particle decay? As far as we can tell, particle decay IS truly random. That means that things are not predetermined.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

You?re talking about the ability to track and calculate probabilities of Chaos theory. While fun, the idea itself has some flaws. Let me try to address a few of your thoughts using a 2 rock scenario?

Prediction. This is one of the big ones. Let?s take 2 rocks, you throw one and I throw one. We can predict their velocity, their trajectory and their force, and we can make predictions as to what happens when they collide. But that?s the kicker; it?s only a prediction. Predictions are not what actually happens?

Probability. Most of the mathematics you could use to make the above predictions requires statistical probabilities. Even though we calculate that the rocks will lose 50% of their force on impact and change direction on a 32degree angle, it?s still an estimated bet based on the probability of it happened. The rocks could lose 60% of their force and change at a 50degree angle?

Consistency. Based on the probability of the 2 rocks striking, you could create a probable model to apply your mathematics. However, it?s still based on statistical averages. With statistical anomalies, your consistency to apply the base model becomes more difficult, in a compounding way (or you could argue that the consistency could potential apply since every new set of data resets the probability). Case in point, build a machine that fires 3 tennis at the same velocity in a controlled environment into a steel box. If you fire the machine 3 times, would the balls bounce and land in the same position 100% of the time? Theoretically they should, but they probably won?t.

Accuracy. This is the big one. Even though you have a mathematically probable prediction, is that what is going to happen? And according to mathematics, the slightest difference is monumental. What?s the difference between a 50% and 51% drop in velocity? Pretty big when dealing with various forces.

Variables. This is another big one. The laws of physics are not static and tend to vary from one degree to another depending on where one is in the cosmos. As an example, black holes tend to skew the laws of time and entropy. We aren?t sure at all how we could begin to apply the laws of physics in various scenarios, so there?s always going to be an element of the unknown screwing up our data. Like our tennis balls, what is affecting them; friction? Gravity?

As far as people arguing against predictive elements of human nature, I can only point you towards the science of psychology. I know, it?s not a fun science and a lot of people don?t like it for one reason or another, but damned it?s getting accurate.

As for the rest, sure, once you can somehow make a calculation based on all the above which near infinite knowledge of the universe, then yes, you will be able to tell the future.

 

[Boletes Net]

...
I rarely read nonsense as special as that post. I think the last one to make me giggle that much was the guy claiming that Faster-Than-Light travel would be possible if we had barriers.

Eliminate the assumptions and baseless assertions from your post and you'd be left with fuck all.

Aww, at least give a single example. What specifically. It seems fine to me? What part of my thought process is wrong.

1. The universe is, very simplistically, a lot of colliding particals.
2. We can predict what colliding particals will do.
3. Because we can, in theory predict, how any partical will react with any other partical, we can predetermine its journey.

Perhaps my phrasing is wrong. Let me make it more simple for you. Everything in the universe, every possible interaction of anything with anything else follows laws of maths and phsyics. These are 100% predictable and constant. As such how can anything be random.. how can anything deviate from one set path?

Your comparison is just silly. Faster than light travel is impossible. Even with reletive speeds as a factor, the fastest you will ever observe anything is lightspeed. Light will also never be observed slower than lightspeed reletive to you, regardless of how fast you are going. What im suggesting is, how is random ( and as such free will to make hypothetically random choices) possible in a universe that functions ONLY on predictable laws and rules. Explain how the first moronic false statement is anything LIKE my fair assumption.

dude we can predict what particals will do but not where they will be. Sure theres an equation for the universe but its not specific to our decissions unless there are limitless parralle universes now stop wasting you're time with this and go get laid.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

I figure that regardless of what we can know or not know, that partical DOES have a speed and a location, regardless of if we can know it or not. It still follows laws.

OR else every tiny ounce of free will is because of the tiny leeway in location or momentun, a margin of uncertainty if you will, as small as a plank... That seems very miniscule.

This is, in fact, completely wrong, which is the problem with your entire argument. Not only can we not know both momentum and position perfectly, but particles cannot have them both perfectly defined at the same time. If you had actually read the article, you would have known that. I can prove it to you, and the article in fact does, but only if you've taken some fairly advanced math and physics, which it is clear you have not. For further research that you will not do, look up either wave/particle duality or the dual slit experiment. Both will give strong evidence that the universe is not deterministic, but rather is based on probability. Which means, in short, that you can not predict anything perfectly. Ever.

I am not, in fact, an atheist, I just hate people who do no research on a subject then claim that they have proved something profound. Seriously, if it was that easy, don't you think physicists would have mentioned it already?

Im actually aware of the duel slit experiment. It proved a single photon was in two places at once. No need to jump down my throat for asking a single question. I expected to be argued with. I didnt come here to preach like a prophet. I came here to be proved wrong so i could explore a more accurate view and better my own knowlegde. Or to reason a better solution. I actually didnt consider that could prove the universe is based on probability. And after realising this and reading your article i see it is. Tnanks, actually its a good read. You seemed to make an account JUST for this, and to be honest, im flattered. Its nice to see smart people actually try and educate others rather than insult or belittle. Ill revise my thinking.

 

[mad825]

particles; Atoms, electrons, photons and other do not behave the same when the are/are not being observed.

 

[Three Eyed Cyclops]

Snip

I figure that regardless of what we can know or not know, that partical DOES have a speed and a location, regardless of if we can know it or not. It still follows laws.

OR else every tiny ounce of free will is because of the tiny leeway in location or momentun, a margin of uncertainty if you will, as small as a plank... That seems very miniscule.

Ninja`d

The issue is that once you get small enough you are no longer talking about particles occupying finite volume. For example electrons are often better described as waves. As such, you can not say it occupies a volume area, but we can say that it has a high probability of being in this volume. Its not an issue of being uncertain of both is location and momentum. It just simply is this way. Have a look at Young`s double slit experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double-slit_experiment). For the case with an electron have a look at these electron sensitive plates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fileouble-slit_experiment_results_Tanamura_2.jpg

 

[Shimmyshake]

Bring me a repeatable experiment that demonstrates it and then I'll believe you conclusively proved in the soul.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

dude we can predict what particals will do but not where they will be. Sure theres an equation for the universe but its not specific to our decissions unless there are limitless parralle universes now stop wasting you're time with this and go get laid.

This is like, 10 mins of thinking i had during class while i was very very bored. Am i meant to get laid during class? This is hardly an obsession. I just thought it was mildly interesting and came here to share it. People seem desperate to tell others to be more like them, to not be interested by things that dont interest them. Then to assume they are better and to mock them with phrases like "get laid". If you read the bottom of my original post youd see it was just random musing.

 

[newwiseman]

Yes if you know the speed and direction of every particle in existence then you can predict everything. But the Heisenberg uncertainty principle means you can only know one or the other. It mainly has to do with some odd shit in quantum mechanics where single electrons can occasionally exist at 2 places at the same time or disappear all together.

Then there are Einstein-Rosenberg bridges that exist as part of relativity that allow for 'tunnels through space time'. Was part of Einstein trying to develop the unified theory.

Basically at the atomic level even subatomic partials have some degree of free will, or let's call it a spontaneous random chance to do something entirely unpredictable, and that uncertainty even applies to the electrons moving between neurons that will dictate your choices for that day.

Someday we might actually accomplish a unified theory but until then we're stuck with the above.

 

[Drake_Dercon]

*snip*Meaning from the second the universe was created every particals movement and collisions, and such ALL subsquent collisions are all 100% predicatable, assuming you had the computing power or brainpower to do this.*snip*

Quantum physics. Nothing is 100% predictable because on an atomic level, everything is left to chance. That doesn't mean that all possible outcomes won't resolve themselves somewhere. The many worlds theory states that all possible resolutions do occur in an alternate reality. As there really isn't a way of figuring out exactly which one you're in (computers can't currently contemplate the infinite, and neither can we). Truly, everything is, in a way, predetermined but the choices you make are yours. They are not set and while someone else will make a different one, somewhere else, the choices you made are not theirs and theirs are not yours.

Essentially, the outcome of any event is predetermined, but your choices alone determine which outcome you arrive at. If that makes any sense.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

OP, simple question:

At the time I purchased Oblivion, I had long since hated RPG's. I had, for the longest time, utterly dislike them. So why did I purchase it? It wasn't an impulse buy. It was a decision I'd since thought about and decided on. If my decisions worked by predetermined particles hitting each other, then why did I do something random and completely out of character?



Also explain to me why I all of a sudden decided to watch anime. Nothing much really pushed me in that direction, and I disliked it before, so how was something so seemingly random actually predetermined by brainless random particles?



Random and crazy shit happens. You have choices, you always have. You've proved nothing. Calm down.

Erm ok? What im saying is seemingly random things will happen. But they arnt random really. Lets say a meteor is about to hit earth. People would say "OH NO WHAT A RANDOM TERRIBLE THING!" But it isnt. Its been heading toward us for ages and was always gonna hit us, its just been on its way. Why calm down... im just talking about random thoughts from being bored one day... weird...

Also your example is silly and makes 0 sense. Its ok, ill try and explain it again. Im not saying youre always gonnna do the same stuff... acting out of character is unrelated. Your thoughts, even seemingly random ones, come from particals and electricity. What they are is unlrelated, if they be weird, or normal or whatever. But you think stuff thats the result of particals. You can make some particals collide and electricity move where you want, thats just thought, but the way you make them move still follows logic and physics, so is predictable.

My arguement is basically:

In a universe governed by laws and rules of maths and physics, random is technically impossible. Ive been proven wrong a few times because of an uncertainty theory though, just an interesting discussion. I dont really care anymore tbh.

 

[Zizzousa]

snip

Unless people have a soul or an essence or some thing that makes us do truly random things, that can supernaturely divert particals in our brain to do multiple possible actions, everything we do is set in stone. From the second the big bang started. Unless something stops these particals from taking their predetermined paths from the second the big bang gave them some energy, everything in the entire universe can be predicted with 100% accuracy in theory. Nothing is really random. Its a bit depressing to be honest.

Discussion: After reading this do you believe in fate? Im not sure i do. I think ive just proved we have a soul. Either that or fate. Do you believe in free will because of some divine force. As an athiest this makes my head hurt. I think im gonna go do something fun and never think about it again. Im already going to anyway. Its predicted.

EDIT: People seem obsessed with the fact this tiny 10 min thought has somehow dominated my life. It has not. I am calm. This is a tiny musing. Stop telling me to calm down. You just come away looking really really weird... I dont realy mind either way. Its like death being inevitable. I dont really think about it.

EDIT: Ive also been proven wrong a few times by the duel slat test AND the uncertainty theory. Dont bother posting them. I admit i got it wrong. Fun thought though.

I don't believe in fate, but I do believe in narcotics. Thanks for the thoughts, maaaaan.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

OP, simple question:

At the time I purchased Oblivion, I had long since hated RPG's. I had, for the longest time, utterly dislike them. So why did I purchase it? It wasn't an impulse buy. It was a decision I'd since thought about and decided on. If my decisions worked by predetermined particles hitting each other, then why did I do something random and completely out of character?



Also explain to me why I all of a sudden decided to watch anime. Nothing much really pushed me in that direction, and I disliked it before, so how was something so seemingly random actually predetermined by brainless random particles?



Random and crazy shit happens. You have choices, you always have. You've proved nothing. Calm down.

Erm ok? What im saying is seemingly random things will happen. But they arnt random really. Lets say a meteor is about to hit earth. People would say "OH NO WHAT A RANDOM TERRIBLE THING!" But it isnt. Its been heading toward us for ages and was always gonna hit us, its just been on its way. Why calm down... im just talking about random thoughts from being bored one day... weird...

I know... but you're saying that we don't actually have any choices, that everything is predetermined. How, exactly? You basically just say that since Earth as we know it was just a bunch of particles being in the right place at the right time - randomly, by the way, if we pretend that the possibility of a creator has been discounted - then everything is predetermined.

Excuse my unscientific young mind, but that doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make any at all. If what you're saying is true, then all of us would follow one certain pattern, wouldn't we? We wouldn't be able to make a choice or try out new things, we would simply follow a path that was laid out before by a bunch of particles that have spent eternity smacking into each other. Which can't be true because we spend our entire lives making choices, in the broadest sense anyway. We can, on impulse, decide to run outside naked - those are thoughts, not predetermination. That makes no sense, none at all, it just sounds like a crackpot theory to me. Run it by someone who knows more about this stuff, and he'll probably explain it to you in better terms.

But you do follow one path! You do try new stuff, and do crazy things, but these are all predetermined. You decide things, but you only make ONE action from a choice. We dont really choose. We think some thoughts. We do ONE single action from a choice. Maybe we change our minds. But the basis of everything in our brains is particals smacking and electricity. Which can be watched and predicted. Its generally accepted this was good reasoning before, but a theory suggests that particals cannot be measured accurately in space and speed, theres a lot of random for where something ACTUALLY is. So theres a lot of random all over the place. Its wrong, im wrong. Its just your example doesnt disprove it. You can "decide" randomly to do something, its not like you KNOW it was predetermined. My theory just says its because of the particals heading toward the destination that will cause this thought finally reach their destination after loads of bouncing.

 

[Hero in a half shell]

snippety

Well, it was a fun read, and a good thought experiment, don't be too hard on yourself, I think it's good to think about this kind of stuff, at the very least it expands your imagination and excercises your brain, and you never know, one day you just might come up with a theory that is groundbreakingly correct.