It just astounds me that people hate her that much. I mean what has she done to even DESERVE this much hate from people? I personally find her as boring as sin, but the hatred she gets is just staggering, not to mention depressing.
I used to dislike Anita Sarkeesian, but...
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It's actually probably a good thing that she's getting this reaction (in the long run, at least). What better way to show how uncomfortable people are with having their standards challenged than by making them uncomfortable by challenging their standards?erttheking said:
In the words of my friend Snoop (from The Wire), "Deserve has got nuthin' to do with it"erttheking said:
Really, I fail to see how you can say something like someone deserves death threats. We say things like So-and-so deserves to win an Oscar, but that's about rewarding people, not spiting them.
I think he's asking why that's the case. Edit: And after thinking about it, you basically said what I meant, just in a different way. The part that I would point out is that I think whenever any type of political issue is brought up some people treat discrediting the arguer as discrediting the argument, which is a fallacy in and of itself.Abomination said:
Ditto. That part made me furious and in general drives me nuts when someone does it. Hence a lot of the arguments I get into with both sides of almost anything political.
Uh, yeah, I would like to respond to this post with a massive "CITATION NEEDED!" Seriously what evidence to you have to support this claim? I don't think she forged that picture of herself playing an old Nintendo game she showed in the first video.Zenn3k said:
I have some issues with the way she conducts herself, but basically she's pretty correct. Women are by and large poorly represented in games.
This does not mean that in every case the developers and/or players are malicious, just that somehow we're part of a system that is incredibly one sided. I still have no idea why this gets so many people frothing at the mouth.
This does not mean that in every case the developers and/or players are malicious, just that somehow we're part of a system that is incredibly one sided. I still have no idea why this gets so many people frothing at the mouth.
See, the bolded part? That's the part that people have a huge issue with.Rebel_Raven said:
She is, I guess, "doing" something about it... but what she's "doing" is asking others to actually do something about it. Asking others to take the risk, do the work and bare the consequences.
If you're going to do that you better damn well make sure your suggestions are founded... it's also the type of thing that companies will actually pay you for if you can convince them it's better for their bottom line.
And that's the thing, if it's not better for the bottom line then why would they even consider it? All she's done is highlight there's a potential niche market that's available for exploitation.
The real way to "solve" the issue? Start a gaming company with her ideals in mind and see how well they operate in the market.
Don?t demand that risk and effort from others.
There may be value to at least some of what Sarkeesian says, and as ever I can't say there isn't value to the discussion it raises itself- but that's faint praise indeed, given that I would say as much of many people who have raised far more hackles than they have changed hearts and minds.
But I find myself increasingly frustrated with what passes for feminism on the Internet. Too often it seems to have exactly two places for men: "yes-man", and "misogynistic scion of the patriarchy."
And heaven forefend a woman have objections to the words of a self-proclaimed feminist.
Too often there seems to be a layer of suppositions, dogma, and lingo that render every feminist blameless, every woman devoid of responsibility for the shape of culture, and every argument that suggests otherwise automatically invalid without the need for further commentary. I've started avoiding certain conversations among friends because nothing good can come of chipping in with what I really think.
There was a time when I would have happily described myself as a feminist. After all, I'm for equal pay, access to birth control and abortion services, the right of women to serve in the military, and every person's basic right to live a life that harms no one else without harassment or the threat of violence. I have a daughter, and I absolutely want her to grow up with every opportunity, every chance to achieve her dreams and live a full and happy life.
But I have been the only man in a women's history class of twenty-odd students, and I would sooner rip off my thumbnail than subject myself to that again. I have been in classes that described anything male-related as "phallocentric", a word my spell checker refuses to take seriously and I find I'm in agreement.
I am tired of "feminism" that talks about itself endlessly but is so self-assured and self-justifying that it can never listen. That demands empathy while manifestly refusing to show it to those of whom it makes that demand.
And if I had a son instead of a daughter, I genuinely wonder how I would explain to him that there are a significant number of women who see him as an oppressor and a potential rapist despite the fact that he hasn't done a damn thing to them. How I would explain that through no fault of his own, he's been cast as a monster in someone else's play.
Sorry to vent. Feminism has been on my mind a lot lately, and I seriously wish I felt I could get through to the people in my life who think that men are all the problem, rather than 50% of any potential solution.
But I find myself increasingly frustrated with what passes for feminism on the Internet. Too often it seems to have exactly two places for men: "yes-man", and "misogynistic scion of the patriarchy."
And heaven forefend a woman have objections to the words of a self-proclaimed feminist.
Too often there seems to be a layer of suppositions, dogma, and lingo that render every feminist blameless, every woman devoid of responsibility for the shape of culture, and every argument that suggests otherwise automatically invalid without the need for further commentary. I've started avoiding certain conversations among friends because nothing good can come of chipping in with what I really think.
There was a time when I would have happily described myself as a feminist. After all, I'm for equal pay, access to birth control and abortion services, the right of women to serve in the military, and every person's basic right to live a life that harms no one else without harassment or the threat of violence. I have a daughter, and I absolutely want her to grow up with every opportunity, every chance to achieve her dreams and live a full and happy life.
But I have been the only man in a women's history class of twenty-odd students, and I would sooner rip off my thumbnail than subject myself to that again. I have been in classes that described anything male-related as "phallocentric", a word my spell checker refuses to take seriously and I find I'm in agreement.
I am tired of "feminism" that talks about itself endlessly but is so self-assured and self-justifying that it can never listen. That demands empathy while manifestly refusing to show it to those of whom it makes that demand.
And if I had a son instead of a daughter, I genuinely wonder how I would explain to him that there are a significant number of women who see him as an oppressor and a potential rapist despite the fact that he hasn't done a damn thing to them. How I would explain that through no fault of his own, he's been cast as a monster in someone else's play.
Sorry to vent. Feminism has been on my mind a lot lately, and I seriously wish I felt I could get through to the people in my life who think that men are all the problem, rather than 50% of any potential solution.
I suppose I misworded that bolded part. I wasn't particularly demanding, just suggesting.Abomination said:
Honestly, with developers like Naughty Dog, Rockstar, and Bioware, to say the least, do you really think it's a huge risk that they can't make a generally well received female playable character?
Why not exploit the niche market since so few others, if any are going to? Having less competition is generally a good thing for the bottom line, isn't it?
If I had the millions and millions of dollars, possiblty a billion to make a compeditive game company, I'd make a company that specializes in female protagonists. And I'd give a variety. I might not hold up to Anita's standards, but I'm seriously going to try and prove that the presense of a female protagonist won't damn a game by making -great- games, and a variety of women.
... But that means it's an even BIGGER risk than actually making a decent game! You'er saying I can't ask a risk while at the same time a bigger risk is suggested?
Lets be real, indie games are simply not going to have enough impact to have anything but the remotest chance to change the status quo. Going indie is an even bigger risk than starting one's own company because you won't be able to compete with AAA, or anything close, and you pay for your own company that could easily go bust if you make a crappy game.
I mean, I'm not saying that an entirely new game has to be made from the ground up, here. What about standalone DLCs like Liberty City Stories, Undead Nightmare, and Blood Dragon? Use an existing game to suppress a lot of the development costs, and time spent in making it.
Of course it'd be unreasonable to expect full price for it, but it'd be there, and it'd likely be a decent game, and odds are the woman won't be dressed like a prostitute. I'm not saying that the option to change clothes to look that way can't be there, but people will prolly have options for a more presentable look, too. It's not like Rockstar's a stranger to large wardrobes for their protagonists either.
There's a lot of ways to minimize the risk for the big game companies. I.E. not make a shitty game, and/or not make a shallow bimbo sex object chracter, and use existing game resources to make the game.
To put it briefly, the problem is of a larger variety in videogames, more prevailent in videogames, videogames are more popular, and videogames are trying to "mature."Coreless said:
The issue exists in other mediums, sure, but the other mediums are far far far more diverse than Videogames.
Also to add onto it, we are focus on female representation in games because, well, we're gamers. We feel more passionate about what happens in games as opposed to what happens in movies.Rebel_Raven said:
You have every chance to not click them, you know.Skops said:
I wonder how many death/rape threats it would take to close off your lines of communications.Daystar Clarion said:
I also wonder how low your opinion of scientists must be if you think that sort of response is common enough for her issue to be repeated in the scientific community.
Gender dynamics and "roles" have been changing since before you or I were born, friend. To say they're ingrained and not going away is like saying the sun will never set on the Roman Empire. You're adhering to a status quo that's different from that of the year you were born, so it's not like these are some stone-etched rules that cannot change or end.AC10 said:
Society's ideas of gender roles themselves routinely evolve.
As amusing as it is to hear men talk about how they're unconcerned with getting preferential treatment, you should probably look for a better excuse.
Video games are more popular then all other mediums? You have got to be joking. So because we have some games going for a more mature setting that means we can't have fantastical character representations anymore? So because games like The Last of Us exist we now can't have our Dragon's Crown?Rebel_Raven said:
One of my blog posts got a comment about how I must surely apply the same standards to other media as well. I took four or five paragraphs to say what you just did.Rebel_Raven said:
In short, bravo.
Please don't speak as though the critics are a collective. A large chunk of people are offended that we're even discussing women in video games. They get offended at the notion of more female protagonists. I'm sure what you say is also true, but it is far from unilateral.Abomination said:
Which, by the way, is all Anita is doing: asking us to look at the medium.
To which she gets rape and death threats. Well played, gaming community.
Okay, let them change then. They're still going to be around, just different.Zachary Amaranth said:
There have been male and female dominated professions for hundreds of years and just blindly claiming otherwise is pulling the wool over your own eyes because it's something you don't want to hear. Construction and child rearing are two obvious examples.
Good to know I'm getting preferential treatment. Like the time I was doing the interview process for a fortune 500 software company and they told me that if a female software developer applies, we have to hire her over her competition due to equal opportunity clauses, so long as she can do a satisfactory job. Damn that patriarchy, eh?Zachary Amaranth said:
Ive tried to watch her videos twice but they just can't seem to hold my attention because of this i can't come up with a comprehensive stance on Anita. although i do think this is good for the industry just for the backlash alone any sane person can see the kind of extreme hate that she received and say maybe there is a problem at hand.