I used to dislike Anita Sarkeesian, but...

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Zenn3k

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Lieju said:
Zenn3k said:
Lieju said:
Sarkeesian has some good points and some over-generalisations (And there's certainly a problem with sexism in gaming), I don't care for her stuff because I don't find it interesting or informative.


Zenn3k said:
The ***** doesn't even know WHO Samus is, and wants to talk about women in gaming. Fuck off Anita.
So, that would have been the kind of 'criticism' you would have posted on her Youtube-videos if she allowed it? What a loss.

I suddenly remember why I usually stay away from these threads.

BTW, I don't see why she disabled the Youtube-comments if she really loves playing a victim as much as people claim.
All those comments calling her a ***** and telling her to fuck off would have just been perfect fodder for that.
No, thats the kind of criticism she gets for not allowing comments or voting.

Its really simple: You don't allow comments, you get no respect.
Of course, I apologise.
I am certain your critique would have been most eloquent.
Oh, so answer you victim card question....she loves her victim card, but hardcore feminism tends to have a "I'M THE ONLY ONE WHO IS ALLOWED TO SPEAK" theme.

Stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80 (its almost unbearable to watch).

I lump Ms. Video Game Expert with that red haired "lady". Not allowing comments/voting on a YT video is basically the same as shouting over someone whenever they try to speak. It's dismissive of any outside opinions. Who doesn't want outside opinions? Those who aren't actually trying to debate or discuss, but instead, indoctrinate.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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LetalisK said:
True, that wasn't explicitly stated. What forms of direct criticism are we talking about?
Well, most visibly, in my mind that would be Youtube video responses (marked or otherwise), blogs, op/ed pieces on gaming sites, and the like -- focused content that can be linked, read, and digested easily. I'm not suggesting stuff like forum threads, article responses, and the like that simply lack visibility or are often content-limited. Given the volume of response to her work I'm not holding her to a standard of personalized responses for each and every person, that's not reasonable, but a video or video series responding in turn to common responses and criticisms, engaging them in a thoughtful manner is certainly not an unreasonable expectation, especially if she indeed wants a productive dialogue. Given that her project in question has gone on for fifteen months now with a whopping three videos, raised six figures in crowd-sourced funding, she has her own video channel and website, and engages in interviews with game journalists and operates on the guest speaking/keynote circuit, she certainly has the time.
 

Lieju

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Zenn3k said:
Not allowing comments/voting on a YT video is basically the same as shouting over someone whenever they try to speak.
Except it isn't. It's more like giving a lecture and not allowing people to comment there or ask questions.

She isn't stopping anyone of doing exactly the same thing she is and posting videos on Youtube.

I'm personally happy she isn't allowing the comments and then pointing at them saying 'this is what the gaming community is like.'
 

LetalisK

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Eacaraxe said:
LetalisK said:
True, that wasn't explicitly stated. What forms of direct criticism are we talking about?
Well, most visibly, in my mind that would be Youtube video responses (marked or otherwise), blogs, op/ed pieces on gaming sites, and the like -- focused content that can be linked, read, and digested easily.
Okay. How do you know she doesn't consider these avenues of criticism? Since the argument is that she doesn't consider criticism, and the only form we actually know she doesn't consider is youtube comments, by what method do we know she hasn't considered any criticism from these other sources? Considering the reaction to her last video had a lot of "Well, at least she changed this..." reaction to it, I'd say she either does listen or is incredibly self-aware.

but a video or video series responding in turn to common responses and criticisms, engaging them in a thoughtful manner is certainly not an unreasonable expectation, especially if she indeed wants a productive dialogue.
I would enjoy this too, mostly because she'd be torn to shreds. However, just because she doesn't speak to criticism doesn't mean she doesn't listen to criticism.

Edit:
Eacaraxe said:
raised six figures in crowd-sourced funding, she has her own video channel and website, and engages in interviews with game journalists and operates on the guest speaking/keynote circuit, she certainly has the time.
Actually, that would be more evidence to her not having enough time as the more time she spends doing those things means she would have less time to do other things like you suggested. I'm not saying she doesn't have any time because of those things, but stating that your argument in this case is counter-productive.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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Lieju said:
It's more like giving a lecture and not allowing people to comment there or ask questions.
These are Youtube comments we're talking about. It isn't even like giving a lecture without a Q&A at the end. It's like giving a lecture, and not allowing people to throw their own bodily excretions and run around naked dry-humping everything within their grasp before burning down the lecture hall.

...However, just because she doesn't speak to criticism doesn't mean she doesn't listen to criticism.
See, that's the problem. If she's not engaging people and responding directly to responses, critical or otherwise, it's not a dialog. At best, it's disingenuously refining one's own argument without acknowledging other parties in the conversation exist.
 

Zenn3k

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Lieju said:
Zenn3k said:
Not allowing comments/voting on a YT video is basically the same as shouting over someone whenever they try to speak.
Except it isn't. It's more like giving a lecture and not allowing people to comment there or ask questions.

She isn't stopping anyone of doing exactly the same thing she is and posting videos on Youtube.

I'm personally happy she isn't allowing the comments and then pointing at them saying 'this is what the gaming community is like.'
You clearly haven't watched her videos. She already HAS that opinion of the gaming community, which is why she has them disabled.

However, treating us ALL like immature 14 year old boys who play nothing but CoD, is equality disrespectful to you and me. Just because she runs into a few jerks, she lumps the entire community as sexist men, then goes on to talk about fucking Mario and Peach for an hour. Its a fantasy world, fantasy stories of the women saved by a male hero is as old as time itself...to complain about THAT, while at the same time completely ignoring stuff thats counter to her arguments...like a HUGE list of strong female lead characters she NEVER talks about, is just non-sense.

Anita doesn't deserve anymore minutes, her 15 are up. Let her fade into obscurity where she belongs.
 

shrekfan246

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Zenn3k said:
If you aren't properly informed on a topic, you shouldn't be trying to change peoples opinions on them. End of discussion.
So what you're telling me is that you've spent a few days or weeks as a female in the video game community, then? Enduring things like being called "the *****" because you dared question the potential sexism in the industry/community?

Because if you're not properly informed on how females are treated or react to these things, you shouldn't be trying to change their opinions, right?
 

Eduku

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Fappy said:
Eduku said:
Another thread which could have been posted in any of the other countless Sarkeesian threads. I think the mods should be more active in merging these threads together.
This thread has a pretty specific goal in mind and goes about it in a constructive and organized way. It can be easily justified to stand on its own.
Eh, I think it could have been put in any of the other threads, but to each their own.

I don't actually grudge threads like this all too much though, as they can provide a good source of entertainment once in a while.
 

Lieju

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Zenn3k said:
Anita doesn't deserve anymore minutes, her 15 are up. Let her fade into obscurity where she belongs.
So, let's not talk about her then. That's why I usually stay away from these threads.
Why don't you?

Running around calling her names is only going to keep this thing going on.
 

LetalisK

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Eacaraxe said:
See, that's the problem. If she's not engaging people and responding directly to responses, critical or otherwise, it's not a dialog.
Since Lieju basically said what I did and you responded, I'll respond here. If she came out with the goal of starting a dialogue(and I think she did state that now that I think about it) and she's not part of that dialogue, then yes, that is a mark against her for not participating in the very thing she wanted to start. But that still doesn't say anything about whether or not she considers criticism, which is the point I'm contending here.
 

Zenn3k

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shrekfan246 said:
Zenn3k said:
If you aren't properly informed on a topic, you shouldn't be trying to change peoples opinions on them. End of discussion.
So what you're telling me is that you've spent a few days or weeks as a female in the video game community, then? Enduring things like being called "the *****" because you dared question the potential sexism in the industry/community?

Because if you're not properly informed on how females are treated or react to these things, you shouldn't be trying to change their opinions, right?
First off, your comment is about a strawman as it gets.

But for the record, I played a female toon in a MMO for years. I also had a male toon in that same MMO.

The female toon was treated better, given free stuff, invited early to dungeons and raids, and practically royalty.

The male toon was just "another person". Where is her video on THAT topic? How women are treated better in online social settings? Oh wait, that doesn't fit her "victim" story, better leave that out as well.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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LetalisK said:
...Actually, that would be more evidence to her not having enough time as the more time she spends doing those things means she would have less time to do other things like you suggested. I'm not saying she doesn't have any time because of those things, but stating that your argument in this case is counter-productive.
I'd be more amenable to this point, but for her spending a significant amount of time on the blog, interview, and keynote/lecture circuit talking about the threats and invective laid against her. She's already responding to criticism against her, even though she's cherry-picking the worst and most toxic of it. Sure, there's a huge difference between rape or death threats and somebody bringing up counter-points in a respectful and organized manner, but that doesn't change the fact it's criticism that she's already dedicated no small amount of time for response.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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LetalisK said:
Since Lieju basically said what I did and you responded, I'll respond here. If she came out with the goal of starting a dialogue(and I think she did state that now that I think about it) and she's not part of that dialogue, then yes, that is a mark against her for not participating in the very thing she wanted to start. But that still doesn't say anything about whether or not she considers criticism, which is the point I'm contending here.
I edited my post after you responded, but I'll restate my point.

If that is what is occurring, then she's being disingenuous by refining her own arguments while playing straw men with her critics -- disavowing the existence of the people she's relying upon to refine her own arguments, while cherry-picking those to whom she draws attention and responds.
 

LetalisK

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Eacaraxe said:
LetalisK said:
...Actually, that would be more evidence to her not having enough time as the more time she spends doing those things means she would have less time to do other things like you suggested. I'm not saying she doesn't have any time because of those things, but stating that your argument in this case is counter-productive.
I'd be more amenable to this point, but for her spending a significant amount of time on the blog, interview, and keynote/lecture circuit talking about the threats and invective laid against her. She's already responding to criticism against her, even though she's cherry-picking the worst and most toxic of it. Sure, there's a huge difference between rape or death threats and somebody bringing up counter-points in a respectful and organized manner, but that doesn't change the fact it's criticism that she's already dedicated no small amount of time for response.
I wouldn't disagree with this, either. I wouldn't be surprised if she knows exactly how to leverage the destructive response in order to increase her own visibility and I grudgingly admit it's not a bad marketing plan, though I question its efficacy beyond being a marketing plan. But how does her speaking to the destructive response imply she doesn't listen to the constructive criticism? Can one not do both? If it feels like I have a lasso and I keep pulling this back in, it's because I am. This is quite literally my one disagreement thus far and it's a habit of mine that I actually tend to argue more with people I have something in common with about details of the collective argument than the people on the opposing side.
 

BloatedGuppy

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LetalisK said:
From where? Because it sounds more like you pulled it out of thin air.
I wondered that myself. I went looking for sources he might've used for his argument, and all I could find is this forum post:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.826049-I-used-to-dislike-Anita-Sarkeesian-but#20050878
 

Thebazilly

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BloatedGuppy said:
LetalisK said:
From where? Because it sounds more like you pulled it out of thin air.
I wondered that myself. I went looking for sources he might've used for his argument, and all I could find is this forum post:

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/9.826049-I-used-to-dislike-Anita-Sarkeesian-but#20050878
Don't you know? Girls don't play video games, ever. They just pretend to in order to elicit nerd boners.
 

generals3

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FriendlyFyre said:
Something they may not know however is that these qualities are already aspects of a pre-existing ideology, "Liberal feminism." They focus on the individuals' right to do and say things, with the empowering belief that once a woman can do anything a man does, and without her gender being mentioned, she is able to survive in the world just as well as he is.
Yeah no. The Olympic records clearly show the opposite. (unless the top female athletes under perform because they are showing they are women...) Let's not get overzealous shall we. Women and men will never be "equal" in its strictest sense because women and men are biologically different. (does not mean every difference we can observe now are not a consequence of certain social forces)



This is very compelling and logical to support because it centers around changing our conscious behaviors, and it's clear that many video games embrace this fully, such as having female soldiers in Gears of War, a more vulnerable Laura Croft in the Tomb Raider reboot, and even Samus Aran's genderless portrayal in the original Metroid games.
Since the premise is false following it is actually illogical. If the premise was a bit less overzealous it may be.
Video games are fictional and aimed at entertaining certain audiences. Reality is irrelevant to that. They just make what will sell.

It's clear however that Anita is not a liberal feminist though, because everything she mentions in her videos is tied to the influence of patriarchy. This marks her as a "Radical feminist" (A loaded word to be sure, but one that I believe has been rather unfairly maligned) who believes that either gender cannot achieve true equality until we examine the underlying system that we consider "normal" in our lives.
I guess one would first need to define "true equality". Because if it's equality of outcome i'd say the first task is to improve genetic engineering and transform the human race into a single sex blob.

Patriarchy refers to a couple factors including men being in positions of power, our media being male dominated, male centric, but most importantly it describes how our world functions by emphasizing which kind of traits are both USEFUL and ENCOURAGED to have. It is a bias so subtle that we forget that there is any other way to live our lives, and so dangerous that it can lead us to demonize feminists just for wanting to create a more equal world.
So basically the definition of the word patriarchy has been completely butchered.

Surprisingly, you are familiar with these traits. Strength (both physical and mental) is one; another is resilience, coolness under pressure, rationality, and perseverance. You might notice that these are often common traits of protagonists in games, from Solid Snake, to Donkey Kong, to Master Chief. This is because in our patriarchal world, these traits are shown to be the most effective to both survival, and success.
Well yes in the settings those characters are put those traits are indeed the best ones.

You'll also notice that traits associated with femininity, including being emotionally open, vulnerability, caring, or cooperative, are rarely shown to be useful in game scenarios, even though they can add depth to a character.
This is what Anita is talking about when she says the Damsel in Distress is harmful, because it normalizes the notion that a female can't escape their captors, mostly because to escape would call for masculine skills that she does not have, or even if she does have them (Sheik from Ocarina of time), is still prevented from doing so by the confines of the narrative.
Well off course in violent video games traits which are the most useful for actual fighting are going to be the most useful. You don't win wars by being vulnerable. This is why context matters. If you actually take the context into account you realize how out of touch your complaint is.

Even more troubling is the sexualization of females in games in ways that serve the player (fan service, skimpy outfits, press X to bone attractive character A) and don't suggest that females can have their own concept of sexuality. I don't believe this is intentional, but I do believe that we write it off as normal when it is really a construction that favors male viewers, and inadvertently belittles female players.
Again, well duh the sexualization serves the player... The whole game serves the player. A game is supposed to be enjoyed by the player as such it will be all about the player. And I would like to question the statement it belittles female players. There are plenty of female players who enjoy games with sexed up women and don't mind them at all. And the idea it favors male players may not be entirely false BUT again, isn't it normal since they are the main consumers? Don't all companies favor their biggest consumer segments?

If there is anything that you take from this thread, it's to remember that this is a woman who LOVES games, has grown up playing them, and cared enough to start a kickstarter in order to bring them into our cultural consciousness in a way which has never really been done before. Women like her have been in academics and been championed for their insight and ability to make us reconsider the meaning of stories and enhance our understanding of the human experience; and acting as if she's ruining our fun or doing it for attention is to do a tremendous disservice to games themselves.
For someone who loves games she sure has a nasty habit of showing us how she doesn't love them enough to play the games she supposedly "reviews".

And everyone can start a kickstarter. Delivering what is promised on the other hand... and it seems her delivery is far from being on par with what she promised.

Though it was understandable for many gamers to feel threatened by someone saying they wanted to change our games, the criticism she's received seems motivated by a need to protect what we view as "normal," and I think we need to seriously consider WHY we seem so unwilling to believe that what we see in our games and gaming communities is not normal.
Because the last time people said what we view as normal wasn't they tried to get violent videogames to be heavily regulated? (and aren't there already countries where blood is censored?)
And let's also not forget that what she says is often pure bogus.

The most important thing I want to make clear is this; I am not trying to make gamers feel wrong or sexist for playing or liking games of these type, I am not trying to say that the industry must change (Only that i believe it is in many gamers, both male and female's best interests to do so), and I am not suggesting that that instances of these behaviors could ever cause people to be violent, sexist, or misogynistic. Down that road lies censorship, which i will not travel for I know not where it ends.
Yet you agree with someone who said these tropes reinforce toxic attitudes towards women and said devs were being dangerously irresponsible for making games in which the protagonist has to kill a female loved one because of the amount of domestic abuse against women in RL (insinuating these games would normalize such behaviors in RL). Heck by your own statement Anita's complaints are on the road to censorship. Why would you like someone who's taking the path to censoring games?

My only goal has been the same as Anita's really, to open up as many gamers who are willing to the possibility that what many gamers have come to see as "normal" is in reality the result of a deeply ingrained set of values and beliefs about the world that have gone unchallenged for too long. But maybe if we stop treating each new iteration of Damsel in distress, or murdered loved one as just another rehash of the trope, and instead ask WHY it is so prevalent a trope, and WHY developers feel both the need to use it and to adhere strictly to it, we'll give them a compelling reason to evolve their stories.
I can say why, because men tend to act protectively when it comes to women. Having a women kidnapped or killed is a pretty good motivator for most men to go on a virtual rampage.
 

broca

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FriendlyFyre said:
broca said:
FriendlyFyre said:
My only goal has been the same as Anita's really, to open up as many gamers who are willing to the possibility that what many gamers have come to see as "normal" is in reality the result of a deeply ingrained set of values and beliefs about the world that have gone unchallenged for too long. But maybe if we stop treating each new iteration of Damsel in distress, or murdered loved one as just another rehash of the trope, and instead ask WHY it is so prevalent a trope, and WHY developers feel both the need to use it and to adhere strictly to it, we'll give them a compelling reason to evolve their stories.
Or you stop to try to convince people that your feminism based interpretation of the state of gaming is right and instead settle for a position that less ideological, less controversial and more likely to lead somewhere. Shouldn't it be enough to believe that the damsel trope is lazy and bad story telling and therefore should be used less instead of insisting on everyone sees the feminist "truth"? Because i would guess that many people on forum could agree to the first but not to the second. But instead it mostly becomes a discussion about whether one thing or another is sexist or objectification or leads to real live aggression against violence (my favorite) and in turn a discussion of this terms and in turn a discussion of feminism in general; all of which (as should be clear by now) has a close to zero chance of changing the opinion of anyone of either side.

Edit: Perhaps i come off as harsh, but i really have no problem with your post. If anything, i like it: you calmly explain your position and it clearly shows that you care about the subject. But still this stuff has been debated so many times (mostly without leading anywhere) and i don't see why it should be better this time as everyone has made up his/her mind by now.
Thanks for the constructive criticism.
Here's the thing, i don't believe that arguing feminism is "the truth" works, because our idea of truth is often warped by what we come to believe through life. In this way I don't see Anita trying to "reveal" the hidden patriarchal design behind games, but merely open us up to the possibility that the trends we see in games are not "normal" Once you consider this, you can ask the question "Why are they there?"
Feminism (aside from anything else) is a system consisting of more or less universally used and accepted concepts and believes (in a scientific context is could partly described as a paradigma) that feminists use to understand and interpret the world and human behavior (just like socialists, capitalists, conservatives, liberals ... do). It is one of many possible ways to interpret the world, so the "problem" is not asking the question "Why are they there?" but assuming that the answer based on a feminist interpretation of the world is right (or as i coined it: "truth"). ,

But even if we assume that the feminist interpretation is right (which is at least debatable) it doesn't change that many people will never be convinced that is right. So trying to convince people that the feminist interpretation is right is less effective in achieving change than focusing on a common basis, independent of the underlying believes. As i said before, my prime example would be the damsel trope: instead of trying to convince people that the feminist interpretation of the trope is right it would be more effective to try to reach a common basis (the trope should be used less) and try to go on from there. At least it would mean less time spend on discussion of the theoretical basis of the trope and more time changing it.

FriendlyFyre said:
Another thing which perhaps doesn't come out in these discussions is the importance of understanding that things like objectification does not CAUSE violence against women, just like violence in games doesn't CAUSE violence in real life. Cause implies we could change it through conscious decision not to, but feminism says that the images of violence and sexuality in media make us more susceptible to believing that this is normal, and this an unconscious factor that we would do well to consider.
The problem here is that feminists do (at least) imply such causation as a reason why the trope should not be used. I believe Sarkeesian did imply it in the (second or third?) video.
 

Angelblaze

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Zenn3k said:
shrekfan246 said:
Zenn3k said:
If you aren't properly informed on a topic, you shouldn't be trying to change peoples opinions on them. End of discussion.
So what you're telling me is that you've spent a few days or weeks as a female in the video game community, then? Enduring things like being called "the *****" because you dared question the potential sexism in the industry/community?

Because if you're not properly informed on how females are treated or react to these things, you shouldn't be trying to change their opinions, right?
First off, your comment is about a strawman as it gets.

But for the record, I played a female toon in a MMO for years. I also had a male toon in that same MMO.

The female toon was treated better, given free stuff, invited early to dungeons and raids, and practically royalty.

The male toon was just "another person". Where is her video on THAT topic? How women are treated better in online social settings? Oh wait, that doesn't fit her "victim" story, better leave that out as well.
Please tell me more about how your ONE case actually proves that all women - and I mean EVERY. LAST. ONE - in MMOs are treated like royalty, because speaking as a woman nothing is further from the truth.

Part of the reason I had to change my name to a non-gendered one in LoL is because of some of the shit that I was told - people mud sling a hellova lot less when your 'just another person' believe it or not.

Furthermore, did you keep charts that compared and contrasted all of the information you just described such as the items given, the value of said items, so on and so forth? Because if not, you could just be facing a case of 'Grass is greener.', you felt like you were treated as being special because you were quicker to notice, because things were different.


Plus, why do guys immediately assume that I WANT to be treated differently then anyone else for being a woman, simply because I say I am? I want to identify as my gender and not be called 'him' or 'that guy' without getting some super special treatment because of it.

If someone tried to give me free blue and orange equips in PoE simply because I was a woman, I'd actually be offended. I consider it almost an insult really - like a 'You probably can't do it without me because your a giiiiiirl' type thing, even when I know its not meant that way. Same for guys who just follow you mindlessly in MMOS trying to get added to your friends list.

No.
I will not add you.
I don't care how 'sweet' and 'chivalrous' you THINK you're acting.
I don't want any of your, or anyone elses fucking attention or gifts unless its out of actual non-gender related friendship or kindness.
 

Eacaraxe_v1legacy

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broca said:
The problem here is that feminists do (at least) imply such causation as a reason why the trope should not be used. I believe Sarkeesian did imply it in the (second or third?) video.
It's in her second video. She weasels around it by using language like "reinforce", "perpetuate", and "influence" coupled with a halfhearted "correlation isn't causation" disclaimer, but that's pretty much the gist of it. Which, the latter part is correct -- correlation isn't causation -- but she pays at best lip service to the notion these games reflect gender roles and societal norms as much as they reinforce them, while tying in an argument this particular brand of media represents and perpetuates violence against women (just, not directly).

Because, god forbid, a clear, unequivocal stance on the issue coupled with an argument for prescriptive relief means she'd have to defend it. The connection between media entertainment and social norms is hardly one-way.