Idaho and Critical Race Theory

Recommended Videos

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
2,109
879
118
CRT has many legitimate criticism, some already stated her. Making up criticism just defeats your own argument. I support any university that doesn't want it in their program. I do NOT support a government banning it
Yes, it should be better, if universities stop funding it because they think it is useless than that lawmakers do. While it certainly politics where public research money goes, what research is promising should be decided at university level.
However schools, that is another topic. Education policy and topics should be be decided by politicians. We don't need every school deciding on its own what is worth teaching or not.
 

Trunkage

Nascent Orca
Legacy
Jun 21, 2012
9,370
3,163
118
Brisbane
Gender
Cyborg
Yes, it should be better, if universities stop funding it because they think it is useless than that lawmakers do. While it certainly politics where public research money goes, what research is promising should be decided at university level.
However schools, that is another topic. Education policy and topics should be be decided by politicians. We don't need every school deciding on its own what is worth teaching or not.
Don't a bunch of states forces schools to teach biblical creationism as a accepted theory. I can squint and make CRT make sense but not that

I don't necessarily disagree but also state legislatures aren't great at it either

Edit: It here being knowing whats best to teach kids
 

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
2,109
879
118
Yes, states can make horrible education policies as well. But then it is a political decision that is out in the open and that voters can change (if they want).

If schools decide on their own, you will see topics that require much equippment or more knowledgebale teachers moved to the rich schools. That will be horrible for equality. And you will also see all groups of weirdos that don't agree with the society to make their own schools teaching their own ideas.

Creationism is bad enough, we don't need flat-earther schools on top of it.


But maybe my sensibilities are off, I come from a country where homeschooling is forbidden for pretty much the same reason.
 

Dirty Hipsters

This is how we praise the sun!
Legacy
Feb 7, 2011
8,802
3,383
118
Country
'Merica
Gender
3 children in a trench coat
And you will also see all groups of weirdos that don't agree with the society to make their own schools teaching their own ideas.
They already have that, it's called home-schooling.
 

TheMysteriousGX

Elite Member
Legacy
Sep 16, 2014
8,580
7,215
118
Country
United States
Yes, states can make horrible education policies as well. But then it is a political decision that is out in the open and that voters can change (if they want).

If schools decide on their own, you will see topics that require much equippment or more knowledgebale teachers moved to the rich schools. That will be horrible for equality. And you will also see all groups of weirdos that don't agree with the society to make their own schools teaching their own ideas.

Creationism is bad enough, we don't need flat-earther schools on top of it.
Yeah, so, you're basically describing the Untied States as it is. Hell, a couple years ago the Great Conservative Communist boogeyman was the Common Core State Standards Initiative. Which, again, not implemented terribly well and subject to criticism, but was not the cultural Marxist federal takeover a lot of idiots claimed it was
 
  • Like
Reactions: Buyetyen

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
*****, *I'd* gleefully end America as it is now, because as it is now is some bullshit. Conservatives want to end America as it is now too, don't fucking kid yourself.
Well that's not what "conservative" means.
>Last attack on the US capital was carried out by an avowed ultra-conservative bloc

Uh huh, go on.
Which people were "avowed ultra-conservative"s? Best I can tell, the only uniting factor in that crowd was disdain for Democrats. Calling the group of people who support Trump "ultra-conservatives" is just about as laughable as calling Democrats "ultra-progressives".
 

Schadrach

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 20, 2010
2,324
475
88
Country
US
Then one wonders what the purpose is of referring to CRT specifically by name in the text of the bill itself.

For anyone following along, the full text of the bill is available here. It's actually not a long read, only about 2 pages.
Yeah, I linked it, quoted the full text of section I in a spoiler, and then summarized it in my previous post. The only thing section II does is prevent the schools from spending money on things they aren't allowed to push due to section I.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Specter Von Baren

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
So, if we're following TB and Buyten's logic, we're kind of at the principle of:

a) You're not an expert in the field of X.

b) Therefore, don't bother discussing X.

If we're at that principle, then no, I can't discuss CRT. There's pretty much nothing I could ever discuss since I can't call myself an expert on anything.
There are sort of levels of understanding.

The problem comes when people don't meaningfully understand anything at all. When you have something like CRT, most people's criticism of it is basically because they're a bunch of white guys who've read some media headlines telling them that CRT means they are bunch of racists and it has hurt their feelings. Having then made their minds up that it's shit and they hate it, any "research" they do thereafter is merely reading up criticisms from someone more expert than they are and repeating it as gospel truth in one grand exercise in confirmation bias.

Like many complex theories, there's plenty in CRT which may be sort of right, sort of wrong, or sort of unknown. These sorts of theories are not there as factual statements to say "Hey guys, this is the real 100% proven reality of the world". They are more like processes: ways to think about and approach the world in order to explore it, because taking different approaches and perspectives can help reveal truths. Any practitioner or reader just need to be aware of the strengths and weaknesses, but that requires an open, honest and properly considered approach. And that's not happening with all too many people, is it?
 

Terminal Blue

Elite Member
Legacy
Feb 18, 2010
3,933
1,804
118
Country
United Kingdom
Alternatively, I can ignore all the traditions that think "epistemology? screw that crap, I have my imagination!"
Refusing to recognize epistemologies that don't suit you doesn't make those epistemologies any less useful.

I mean, the Parisians made one of the worst revolutions in history.
Beyond the absolutely giant need to unpack that statement, so what? Are you saying we should ban students from studying those lines of thought that lead to the French revolution because you judge the results to be politically inconvenient?

For example, the question "what would this look like outside of society" is literally unanswerable,
How do you know that?

You're closer than you have ever been at this point to understanding what critical theory is. Think about it. How do you know what the limits of human knowledge are, and what are the implications of human knowledge having those limits?

And no, I still don't care about the Frankfurt school.
 

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
2,109
879
118
The problem comes when people don't meaningfully understand anything at all. When you have something like CRT, most people's criticism of it is basically because they're a bunch of white guys who've read some media headlines telling them that CRT means they are bunch of racists and it has hurt their feelings. Having then made their minds up that it's shit and they hate it, any "research" they do thereafter is merely reading up criticisms from someone more expert than they are and repeating it as gospel truth in one grand exercise in confirmation bias.
While that certainly does happen, most of the criticism for CRT comes from its roots in Critical Theory and certain postmodernist ideas. Sure, mixing a dividing topic like race into it only makes it even more controversial and liable to be misused in other disagreements, but that should not be seen as primary reason for rejection. (It might be the primary reason for the Idaho decision though)
 

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
...most of the criticism for CRT comes from its roots in Critical Theory and certain postmodernist ideas...
See just about everything I said about critical race theory, and just replace CRT with "postmodernism". Hardly any laypeople have the faintest idea what postmodernism is or represents, they just know some that some guys they like slagged it off, and cherry-picked some anecdotes about absurd extremes to help rationalise it.
 

Satinavian

Elite Member
Legacy
Apr 30, 2016
2,109
879
118
That some people don't know enough about something to make a proper argument why something is bad even if they don't like it, does not mean it is not actually bad for valid reasons.

I mean, yes, there are certainly some critics of CRT who don't know what they are talking about. But that should have no consequence for the validity or assessment o CRT. Well, aside from the claim that CT and CRT is full of obscurantism but that is not an argument I subcribe to.
 
Last edited:

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Jun 6, 2008
36,678
3,877
118
Which people were "avowed ultra-conservative"s? Best I can tell, the only uniting factor in that crowd was disdain for Democrats. Calling the group of people who support Trump "ultra-conservatives" is just about as laughable as calling Democrats "ultra-progressives".
No it's about accurate, and follows the normal pattern of conservative revolutions. A desire to return to old social norms driving a violent reaction to overturn a democratic election and install an autocrat of some kind. Trump's people think he's one man against a treasonous government and needs to sweep them all out, rule from the top down.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
Refusing to recognize epistemologies that don't suit you doesn't make those epistemologies any less useful.
My opinion on something never makes it more or less useful, but also I don't think anything could make critical theory less useful. And sort of comically, the inverse of your statement is very accurate. Epistemologies that prove themselves useful get my recognition. I subscribe to a pretty utilitarian form of epistemology. I freely acknowledge this is a statement of faith, but I believe the truth leads to good results, so any method of investigating what is truth that leads to bad results is likely very flawed. Critical race theory, if useful, would help us reach better understandings of racial issues that ultimately allow us to take better actions (the way you described critical theories real consequences, but that applies to all knowledge, and is not the direct activism pushed by the Frankfurt school that you don't care about even though that's entirely what's controversial here). Critical race theory instead stokes greater racial tensions and leads to spurious conclusions like "being on time is white" and "interstate roads are racial oppression". (Side note: both those statements are real things said by real people. Really white people at that.)
Beyond the absolutely giant need to unpack that statement, so what? Are you saying we should ban students from studying those lines of thought that lead to the French revolution because you judge the results to be politically inconvenient?
The Reign of Terror is not "politically inconvenient". Regardless, I don't think we should ban students from studying anything, which this bill doesn't do. I also don't think we should ban schools from teaching the thought processes in an academic sense, which this bill also doesn't do. I think it reasonable to ban schools from having students have to personally affirm those perspectives though. You can still teach what critical race theory is, you can still teach conclusions reach by people employing critical race theory, you just can't make a student answer that racism is power plus prejudice and therefore non-white people in America are never racist. And like, we teach the enlightenment perspectives, we teach the conclusions and outcomes drawn from the enlightenment, but we don't make students say that people outside of societies corrupting influence are "noble savages".
You're closer than you have ever been at this point to understanding what critical theory is. Think about it. How do you know what the limits of human knowledge are, and what are the implications of human knowledge having those limits?
The limits are practical limits. I'm not talking about things we can see but cannot comprehend. I'm talking about things we can't see. You're imagining an objective view of human society, but all humans are in society, and more importantly all humans are human. The practical limitation is that we can't not be human. The implication of that is that attempting to have an outside perspective is purely imaginary. If your theory requires such a perspective, you must acknowledge that your theory is purely imagined, and any connection to reality is coincidental.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Specter Von Baren

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
No it's about accurate, and follows the normal pattern of conservative revolutions. A desire to return to old social norms driving a violent reaction to overturn a democratic election and install an autocrat of some kind. Trump's people think he's one man against a treasonous government and needs to sweep them all out, rule from the top down.
I don't think you even have any definition of "conservative" you're applying here.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
Legacy
Jun 6, 2008
36,678
3,877
118
I don't think you even have any definition of "conservative" you're applying here.
Oh I know, they can't be right-wing if you disagree with them. But for everyone else who doesn't have to defend their ideology, they were an ultra-conservative right-wing mob at the capital. And certainly no communists anywhere in sight.

So circling back, "red scare" is about the right phrase to use.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Buyetyen

Agema

Overhead a rainbow appears... in black and white
Legacy
Mar 3, 2009
9,917
7,080
118
I don't think you even have any definition of "conservative" you're applying here.
"MAGA" is writ large an age-old conservative appeal, to a period of past glories somehow lost by newfangled modernity. The anger at immigration is about changing the nature of the country, demographically and maybe ideologically. Bring back manufacturing - build stuff they used to like cars and steel. Get energy by traditional methods of burning coal and gas. Trump was touting arch-conservatism, and that's what hooked his supporters.

And yes, it has long been the habit of conservatives, when facing the loss of their social order, to violently impose it through autocracy. That is almost a working definition of a right-wing dictator: someone who used force to defend the vested interests of conservatives when they could not maintain them through popular will.