If a company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it?

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predatorpulse7

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b3nn3tt said:
predatorpulse7 said:
b3nn3tt said:
predatorpulse7 said:
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But here's the thing, demos are(well,were) a great weapon for making people want your game. It wets their appetite if it's done right. I great up in the age of the demo so to speak and I was way more hyped after playing one mini-level of game x than reading a gazzilion previews,dev interviews,trailer like we have today. Granted, both are essentially a form of marketing but since demos were released couple of weeks/months before the final product, you had in your hands a part of the mostly final product.

And I can't "not buy it" when we are talking about certain series that I love, especially if they don't have demos as you say. It would mean that I can't play 90% of games out there since apparently demos are beneath them nowadays. I would simply like to see an actual playable preview of the final product instead of watching others play it. It's completely different watching someone play(on their machine) and how it will react in my machine(not to mention the actual feel of it which is very important cause you know gameplay).

I would go out and by games based on my gut instinct if I had a lot of money. Unfortunately I can't afford that so I have to be picky and research.
I agree with you, demos are a very good idea. But the only people that truly lose out because of a lack of demo are the developers. You might love or hate the game, but you won't know without a demo; by not buying the game, you keep your money and know that you didn't take a risk. The game company, on the other hand, loses you as a potential customer and doesn't gain any money from you buying the game. To be honest, it makes a far stronger statement to email the developers and say 'I would probably have bought your game, but the lack of demo put me off' than to pirate it and then buy it anyway.

If you love a series then you would probably buy the game anyway, even if the demo was less than stellar. I'm not suggesting that you don't buy any game that you don't demo, I'm just saying that a lack of demo is no reason to pirate.
Overall I agree with what you are saying, don't get me wrong, but emailing will achieve nothing in the long run because most players today don't care about demos. Because I have a more limited budget I have to be careful of what I buy and I feel that a demo will give a pretty clear image of the final product. If I were to take your suggestions and follow them(don't buy games who don't have demos) I would be looking at a pretty limited palette of games.

For PC gamers in particular, demos can be important from the tech points things of view, not only gameplay wise. Sure sure, we can look at minimum and recommended settings all day long and go to test sites to see if the rig holds up but it's quite another thing to see how THAT product runs on our machines.

For me it's a shame that they don't bring playable demos anymore(or way fewer than before) because it brings nothing but positives, both to the guys selling the product and those wishing to buy. As a guy that has played a gazzilion demos in his life(and the full versions), let me just say that it is a lot tougher to fool the potential customer with a game demo than with a snazzy 3 minute trailer.

This is a pretty good article on the subject:
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2011/05/26/the-slow-strange-death-of-the-demo/
 

Rblade

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I think that you can get almost the same info from a couple of reviews and maby a playthrough or something of the first 2 levels/quests/tracks etc. then you can get from a demo.

You already know if you like the genre so all you want the know is how well certain things are done and if the story is gripping, all things reviews and a little playthrough will reveal
 

Batou667

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I think that this issue would be a lot more clear-cut if games cost the same as a DVD movie or a hardcover book - say, £10-£15 on release. Unfortunately, they actually cost more like £40-£45 on release, which to a lot of people is an awful lot of money - or at least, far too much money to justify spending on a game that you're not even sure you'll like.

I'm a big fan of "try before you buy", and I think that games publishers morally ought to release free playable demos of their game. Prospective buyers get to see if they like it, and the publisher gets more exposure for their game - it's a win-win situation. The only scenario I can see where a publisher wouldn't want to release a demo is when they know their game is a turkey - in which case it's not fair to be charging people full-price for it anyway.

I used to* buy "backup" *cough, cough* copies of games in the past for "try before you buy" purposes. If I liked the game, I went out and paid for an official copy because I wanted to support the developers. If I didn't like the game, the CD went in the bin. I realise that's illegal, but I can't see how it's morally wrong.

*NB: past tense, I don't any more; no need to arrest me, Internet Police.
 

Mick Myers

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GrandmaFunk said:
IrisEver said:
Once you buy the game, you are legally allowed to download it - even torrent. The same goes for DVDs and music you buy. The money you pay is for the right to play that game, movie, or music. So you'd be fine downloading a game in the situation you mentioned.

When it comes to proving it, you'll have to have kept the receipt of course. But you're legally allowed to do it and there's nothing wrong with it.
This is actually not true at all. At least, not in most countries, where do you live?

most media nowadays is sold under the concept that you are purchasing a license to view/use that media in a specific format for a specific device.

---

As to what happens when your "idiot brother comes and breaks it": your idiot brother buys you a new copy.
See, that's where I'll have to disagree with you, while, technically, it may be illegal, I still live in the days where you actually bought OWNERSHIP of a product, and not just a pay once lease. I'm going to go with yes on it's ok, if you've bought it previously, and lost it, you may still get it again through torrent. I personally have owned multiple CD's that over the years took a beating, and then torrented to get them back, I have also done emulators & rom's of games that I both had ownership of the system and the game itself.
 

Mick Myers

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I'm going to go with, legally, no, but morally, if you actually plan to buy the game in a week or so if you enjoy it, then yes. For example, I torrented Skyrim the day it came out to test it and because I wouldn't get my paycheck for another 6 days, I enjoyed it very much, and on the way home from work TODAY 11-18-2011, I cashed my paycheck & went and bought it (I work third shift, it is currently 8:45am where I am located, don't give me "BS it's too early" or any of that shit).

There is, of course, a moral no as well too. For example, torrenting because you don't want to pay for it just yet, aka, waiting for price to drop / go on sale. This is a no, in my opinion because you are cheating the creators out of money.

To sum my opinion up, Yes, if it's something you plan on getting on your next paycheck which is only a few days away and actually have free-time now. No, if your just doing it to have the game without paying.
 

Nimcha

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predatorpulse7 said:
Nimcha said:
I do wish publishers would release demos more often though. Remember the days when PC magazines came with CDs full of demos of games you mostly never heard of? Those things were my primary source of deciding which game I wanted to buy with my allowance.
Bingo. I had the same thing(still have a stack of like 30 magazines from the 90's). I would buy those magazines and decide if the games were decent via the demos. I bought quite a couple of full games this way. These days, if you don't have the ability to rent, you are screwed because apparently demos aren't fashionable nowadays.
To be fair, nowadays it's a LOT easier to find out stuff about a game. In those days without internet (or anything better than a 56k connection) those magazines were all you had. Now you can go and find almost everything about a game before buying it.
 

Dastardly

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IrisEver said:
Once you buy the game, you are legally allowed to download it - even torrent. The same goes for DVDs and music you buy. The money you pay is for the right to play that game, movie, or music. So you'd be fine downloading a game in the situation you mentioned.
Careful with this one. Torrenting isn't just downloading, it's also helping distribute the game to others, who you don't know are legally entitled.
 

Raysett

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I would say it is never okay to pirate a video game, or anything for that matter. Even if you cannot legally get it within your own country you should still not pirate it, especially if it is available for you to obtain it in another country you have access to.

If you think it is okay that you are pirating this specific company because they deserve it or because that is the only way for you to obtain it within your own country, then, by pirating, you are fueling the "pirating market." By pirating, you are not supporting the pirate of one game but all games, both the ones that deserve it and the ones that don't.

If you think an un-demoed game should be pirated, there are other legal solutions, like renting.
 

LarenzoAOG

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Crono1973 said:
LarenzoAOG said:
Crono1973 said:
LarenzoAOG said:
MuttyGrims1321 said:
So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?
That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.
Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.
I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.
I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?
I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.
 

Epona

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LarenzoAOG said:
Crono1973 said:
LarenzoAOG said:
Crono1973 said:
LarenzoAOG said:
MuttyGrims1321 said:
So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?
That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.
Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.
I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.
I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?
I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.
No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?
 

Daffy F

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Dense_Electric said:
Daffy F said:
Don't kid yourself. Once you've pirated it you're not going to 'Try it out' and then buy a full copy. So no, I don't think it's okay. After all, that's what trailers are for.
Ah yes, the act of downloading a game to see if you enjoy it before purchasing it magically prevents you from being a good person and supporting the creator if you happen to enjoy it. I guess if you're weak-willed, maybe it does.

And if you're really going to insinuate that watching gameplay footage is even remotely comparable to playing a game, I'm going to have to ask you to step outside.
Gameplay footage is there so that you at least have an idea of what the game contains. I agree that it isn't the same thing, but I stand by what I said about Demos. Don't pirate games and then try to justify it by saying 'I was gonna pay for it, I promise!', that shit is pathetic.
 

Batou667

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rollerfox88 said:
If a shop doesnt let you have a bite of an apple before buying, is it OK to steal the apple?

No, of course not. Whats wrong with you?
What if the apple cost $60? And possibly had a worm in it anyway?
 

Batou667

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AngleWyrm said:
When you buy a used game [http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B00000K4AX/ref=dp_olp_used?ie=UTF8&condition=used&tag=vglnk-c21-20], who gets paid?
What about when you rent a game [http://www.gamefly.com/], who gets paid then?
It's a murky comparison. A preowned or rented game already has been bought (by the previous owner or rental store), so the developer/publisher has already got their cash. You're right that the dev/pub never gets to see the money associated with second-hand games (or third-hand, or fourth... at each resell money chages hands but the dev/pub is out of the loop). At least, not in a direct way.

1) When people go to Gamestop or a similar store and trade in their old games, very often they'll do so to buy a new game, so money does trickle straight back into the game industry. Here in the UK, the leading game shop (Game) offers significantly better store-credit than cash value for traded-in games and consoles, which encourages people to buy more games.

2) And when you rent a game from a rental service, I suppose you could say that if you play and enjoy the game, you're more likely to go out and purchase it permanently.

BUT - here comes the confusing bit -

You could take the exact same logic from point 2) to support piracy. People who have had a chance to try a game (and importantly, beyond the carefully selected content presented in a demo) could be argued to be more likely to go out and buy the retail game.

Also, people seem to think that if you pirate a game, you're DIRECTLY taking money out of the pockets of the poor old developers. In fact there are several intermediary stages. As far as I understand it, developers have ALREADY been paid through game stores' initial orders, based on the anticipated popularity of the game. I could pirate a game - hell, I could walk into Gamestop and walk straight out again with a dozen (physical) copies of a game - and the developers would not be directly affected one jot. If I steal from Gamestop, it's the Gamestop Corporation who is out of pocket, not the game devs. And if I pirate a game - nobody has lost any real, existing money. The game shop has lost a potential sale and the publisher will have to wait a little longer before the game shops place the order for the next shipment of games. Since it's just a potential sale that has been lost, one could argue (and with some justification) that if you had no intention or means to buy the game anyway, then there isnt even a missed potential sale as you were never going to give them money in the first place.

So, is denying a company potental sales a crime, or immoral? And if so;

Does this mean that a magazine that gives a game a poor or negative review has committed a criminal act, as this review could result in lost potential sales?

Food for thought, and if nothing else I hope people realise the "stealing a cake" analogy is an oversimplification).

NB: I think that people who profit from piracy - for example, reproducing and selling bootleg games - most definitely ARE both criminal and immoral.
 

LarenzoAOG

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Crono1973 said:
LarenzoAOG said:
Crono1973 said:
LarenzoAOG said:
Crono1973 said:
LarenzoAOG said:
MuttyGrims1321 said:
So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?
That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.
Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.
I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.
I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?
I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.
No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?
A demo of a TV and a demo of a video game are really quite different, a TV is a completed physical product, when you demo it you are basically just borrowing the TV you may or may not buy, you aren't borrowing a part of the TV while the rest is still in developement.

And I agree on your point about refunds, if you buy a thing and it's shit get a refund, but you have to pay for something to get a refund, if you pirate a game and you don't like it than you just stole something that you turned out not to like, so why not just buy it? Best case scenario it's money well spent, worst case you get your money back.

As for digital copies, well I've never bought a digital copy of a game in my life so I really don't know if refunds are applicable to that line of thinking, but even then you can just but the game for PC and install it off the disc.

But honestly are we going to agree on this matter any time soon? Because we've been going back and forth for like 2 or 3 days now.
 

LarenzoAOG

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EzraPound said:
That's where it gets tricky, you may find it morally acceptable to steal from the big faceless industry like the Robin Hood of the internet that I'm sure you are, however I find that morally dubious to steal anything that you don't need, and I also think that you should only steal things you do need if stealing is the only or best option to aquire said thing.

I really don't think morality should come into play in the piracy debate (at least in terms of vidjya games), because everyone disagrees on whats morally acceptable and plus the theft of non-physical luxury item seems like the last thing that morals should be concerned with.
 

Epona

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LarenzoAOG said:
Crono1973 said:
LarenzoAOG said:
Crono1973 said:
LarenzoAOG said:
Crono1973 said:
LarenzoAOG said:
MuttyGrims1321 said:
So I had this come up in a debate with my friend, if a gaming company doesn't provide a demo for a game is it ok to pirate it, to try it out for yourself?
That's like saying "If a car dealer doesn't let me test drive this sedan is it ok to steal it?" Unless there is literally no way to legally obtain a game you have no right to pirate it.

I'm not going to march around with a picket sign saying that pirating is litterally the worst thing for the industry, but unless you absolutly need something and you cannot obtain it through proper channels then you shouldn't steal it.
Where cars are concerned, there are Lemon Laws.
I'm sure you got the point, just because you can't try something out before purchasing it doesn't give you a right to steal it.
I am sure you missed the point. Software does not have Lemon Laws so if you buy a game that should run on your PC (you are at or above the min specs) and it doesn't run or if it is extremely buggy, you can't return it.

Games are released in extremely buggy states these days. Just in the last week there are two games that released buggy as hell Skyrim and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7. Skyrim has serious framerate and texture issues plus a few broken quests as I understand and Lego Harry Potter Years 5-7 on the PC won't even run because of faulty DRM.

Now tell me, if you bought a car that kept slowing down to 20 MPH or that wouldn't even start, what would you do? I'll bet you would demand a test drive before you buy a car anyway and isn't that all that people are asking for here?
I understand, but a demo isn't some right that we all have, if you can't get a demo and your not sure then don't buy the game, and while there are no lemon laws for game any dev who actually cares about the customer will put out a free patch, or a helpful gamer will.

The point still stands, a lack of a demo doesn't justify what is essentially theft.
No one has argued that demos are a right but that is irrelevant since most things in general are not a right. However, day one patches have become all too common and that shows just how careless devs have become. Last gen and before there were no patches and the game simply had to work out of the box. Even though games can be patched, they aren't always patched. For example, guess who fixed Oblivion and guess who didn't? Bethesda wasn't shy about selling you Horse Armor but actually patching the game is something they largely left to the mod community.

You can demo most products, want to try out that new TV? Buy it and if it sucks, take it back for a refund. What's wrong with people doing the internet equivalent of that for software?
A demo of a TV and a demo of a video game are really quite different, a TV is a completed physical product, when you demo it you are basically just borrowing the TV you may or may not buy, you aren't borrowing a part of the TV while the rest is still in developement.

And I agree on your point about refunds, if you buy a thing and it's shit get a refund, but you have to pay for something to get a refund, if you pirate a game and you don't like it than you just stole something that you turned out not to like, so why not just buy it? Best case scenario it's money well spent, worst case you get your money back.

As for digital copies, well I've never bought a digital copy of a game in my life so I really don't know if refunds are applicable to that line of thinking, but even then you can just but the game for PC and install it off the disc.

But honestly are we going to agree on this matter any time soon? Because we've been going back and forth for like 2 or 3 days now.
I love the "but video games are different than every other product in existance and should have special anti-consumer rules" argument. You do too I see.

Let me explain the whole refund thing to you. I buy a TV, it costs $1000, it sucks so I take it back and get my $1000 back. I am out $0. I download a game, it sucks, I delete it, I am out $0. I buy a game, it sucks, I can't return it, I am out $60.

Game companies want you to buy blind but you don't have to. If they want to discourage honest people from downloading a full game demo, they should make a demo for honest people to download.
 

Dexiro

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GrandmaFunk said:
nope.

there are no valid reasons for piracy.

it's always up to you whether or not you think you're comfortable with doing it, but there aren't any excuses that make it "ok".
I'd argue that it does have some justifications, albeit very very few.

For example I downloaded Morrowind to see if my PC could run it, and upon seeing that It did I immediately bought the game on Steam. I've generally found system specs to be unreliable, perhaps because the PC I had at the time was ancient and completely backwards.

However pirating a game to provide yourself with a gameplay demo isn't ok.

I mean how long would you play for? Do you seriously trust yourself to delete the game after that amount of time? Perhaps the game doesn't kick in for a while, are you going to keep playing waiting for the good bits to start? Their are just far too many unknowns, and often developers have a good reason for not releasing a demo. I also guarantee most people would say "I didn't like it enough to buy it but I'm gonna keep it anyway".
 

Epona

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Dexiro said:
GrandmaFunk said:
nope.

there are no valid reasons for piracy.

it's always up to you whether or not you think you're comfortable with doing it, but there aren't any excuses that make it "ok".
I'd argue that it does have some justifications, albeit very very few.

For example I downloaded Morrowind to see if my PC could run it, and upon seeing that It did I immediately bought the game on Steam. I've generally found system specs to be unreliable, perhaps because the PC I had at the time was ancient and completely backwards.

However pirating a game to provide yourself with a gameplay demo isn't ok.

I mean how long would you play for? Do you seriously trust yourself to delete the game after that amount of time? Perhaps the game doesn't kick in for a while, are you going to keep playing waiting for the good bits to start? Their are just far too many unknowns, and often developers have a good reason for not releasing a demo. I also guarantee most people would say "I didn't like it enough to buy it but I'm gonna keep it anyway".
If developers want to avoid those unknowns that then they should provide a demo that they designed. The good reason why developers don't offer a demo is usually because they don't want to spend the money to make one. Well, there are consequences. Buying blind isn't something that should be expected of consumers.