If being transexual is so dangerous, why would anybody go in for that lifestyle?

[Angelowl]

I'd just wanted to thank people commenting in this thread for giving me back some faith in this forum, I was pretty much ready to abandon it.

Anyways. I tried "being normal", it doesn't fucking work. AT ALL. It only boosted my mental health issues manyfold, made me a social pariah, utterly disgusted with any sexual impulses and pretty much convinced that life would never be worth it for me. Same thing with pretty much every other transsexual person that I know. We all tried, and suffered as a result. After a while one reaches the point of suicide or transition and while I do know that a large part of society would prefer if we just died, most of us will pick the other option. Hormone therapy saves life, being able to live as oneself and express your personality makes one a lot happier than hiding in a closet for the fear of pretty much anyone going from friendly to murderous sociopath the moment they discover that you are trans.

 

[lionsprey]

And beyond that ignorance shouldn't be tolerated to the point of forcing people not to live their own lives, more exposure could help people learn more about it, which would in turn would lead to more widespread acceptance. You can already see this happening in the gay community.

I think its Denmark you're talking thinking about. [http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885]

Anti-trans people quite consistently cite this study to say "see, it doesn't work!" However thats not the reality. Even the conclusion section is clear...

"Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population. Our findings suggest that sex reassignment, although alleviating gender dysphoria, may not suffice as treatment for transsexualism, and should inspire improved psychiatric and somatic care after sex reassignment for this patient group."

Of course the people who trot this out fail to understand that the suicide rate is still lower than that of the general trans population. The study fails to compare trans people who undergo transition and sex reassignment with trans people who don't. Given that the suicide attempt rate for the general trans population in Denmark is around 40%, where the study finds the suicide attempt rate to be around half that. It works. Its not a panacea, but it has some effect. One wouldn't expect it to be a panacea given that even with such treatment one can still experience gender dysphoria and that there exist prejudices against trans people which do negatively effect the lives of trans people.

unless you linked the wrong study it's actually swedish.

 

[Jux]

Forgive my ignorance, but if it's the hormones that make a trans person feel better, wouldn't it be possible to take the hormones without publicly acting out of societal norms for your birth sex? Because I find it hard to believe that trans people are being persecuted for taking hormone treatments.

I'm going to assume for a moment you're a guy. You feel like a guy, you act like a sterotypical guy from wherever you are. If tomorrow you were told you were expected to act like a girl, and do so for the rest of your life, with threat of possible assault, rape and murder for not acting like a girl, how long do you think you'd be able to keep up that charade? Do you think it's reasonable for anyone to expect you to hide who you are with those possible consequences hanging over your head?

 

[Mutant1988]

Why should trans-people conform to arbitrary standards just because other people can't conform to the law and the decency not to do harm against other living beings?

That's a better question, I think.

Be what you want as long as you don't hurt anyone is my policy. If you hurt anyone for such a petty reason as this, I'm sorry, you're the person that should not exist - Not your victim.

This is nothing but victim blaming.

 

[Drathnoxis]

Forgive my ignorance, but if it's the hormones that make a trans person feel better, wouldn't it be possible to take the hormones without publicly acting out of societal norms for your birth sex? Because I find it hard to believe that trans people are being persecuted for taking hormone treatments.

I'm going to assume for a moment you're a guy. You feel like a guy, you act like a sterotypical guy from wherever you are. If tomorrow you were told you were expected to act like a girl, and do so for the rest of your life, with threat of possible assault, rape and murder for not acting like a girl, how long do you think you'd be able to keep up that charade? Do you think it's reasonable for anyone to expect you to hide who you are with those possible consequences hanging over your head?

I think I could do that. Although, I'm not really sure that girls act a whole lot different than guys. Maybe a couple more shopping trips, and hair appointments? I've always wondered what it'd be like to wear dresses and makeup and such.

So, sure. I'm not all that attached to my gender.

 

[Gorrath]

I'm more confused about the concept as a whole. Most of the people who would supposed transsexuals are also the ones who say that gender is only a social construct. What does it mean to 'feel like a woman' if feminine archetypes are only a product of society? How can you 'feel like a man' if masculine traits vary wildly between any two given societies?

It seems more like people who claim to be transsexual just feel like they lack the stereotypical male/female traits that most people exhibit or expect and conclude that they're the one who is flawed as opposed to the distinction between men and women being mostly arbitrary as far as personality goes.

Many of the stereotypes about what it means to be a man/masculine or a woman/feminine do come from society's notions, not from anything biological, so there is a good argument that gender, in terms of masculinity and femaninity is a social construct. However, people that are trans often feel uncomfortable in their own bodies, implying that they feel like they have the wrong sex. What you often see is trans people who partially or fully transiton via surgery also feel the need to transition their lifestyle. This leads to many moving toward what society sees as feminine/masculine, even though those construts are often arbitrary. If you want to change your gender from male to female, and want people to treat you like a female, presenting as feminine is important and if people percieve frilly dresses, makeup and handbags as feminine, you may acquire those things to present that way to them.

I hope that clears it up a bit. I'll be happy to explain more too if you or anyone else likes.

 

[The Almighty Aardvark]

I do want to state that the term cisgender is FUCKING STUPID, when you want a term to describe at least 95% of the human race the better word is normal. It's like me adding goy to every non jewish character.

What's so bad about this word that's so much worse than other terms for the "normal" default? What's so bad about cisgender that does't apply to straight? 96% of the population identifies as straight, so why isn't that word similarly bad?

 

[Jux]

I think I could do that. Although, I'm not really sure that girls act a whole lot different than guys. Maybe a couple more shopping trips, and hair appointments? I've always wondered what it'd be like to wear dresses and makeup and such.

So, sure. I'm not all that attached to my gender.

Pardon my skepticism, but I think your response is rather flippant and lacks any measure of empathy, which was the point of posing that question. Most people are rather attached to their gender identities, and asking them to convincingly live as another gender, all the time, is not only nigh impossible (re: the idea that the main difference in gender differences between men and women ammounts to 'more shopping trips and hair appointments'), but will also be a great source of psychological distress.

Perhaps, instead of putting the onus on trans people to not live authentically in the name of their own safety, we should instead focus on those that harm and marginalize trans people.

 

[snekadid]

I'm more confused about the concept as a whole. Most of the people who would supposed transsexuals are also the ones who say that gender is only a social construct. What does it mean to 'feel like a woman' if feminine archetypes are only a product of society? How can you 'feel like a man' if masculine traits vary wildly between any two given societies?

It seems more like people who claim to be transsexual just feel like they lack the stereotypical male/female traits that most people exhibit or expect and conclude that they're the one who is flawed as opposed to the distinction between men and women being mostly arbitrary as far as personality goes.

That's the problem, they feel trapped because in our culture we have a binary choice of gender and then the culture says gender isn't a choice but rather linked to sex and certain behavior(due to a lack of understanding of basic psychology, most people don't realize that gender and sex are not synonyms). Other cultures have more than 2 genders and are more accepting of people that don't fall along the lines of their sex.

 

[The Lunatic]

... I don't understand if this thread is parody or not.


Well! Either way.

I guess I've always wondered the following semi-related thought.

"Why is so much effort put into transition over acceptance or removal of these feelings"?

I mean, ultimately, the pursuit of transgenderism is the ceasing of the urge to be another gender. So, I never quite got why the majority of efforts in regards to reaching these goals are via becoming the gender in question rather than acceptance of the situation via neuroscience, medication or therapy.

Not that it's a bad option, I mean, it's a solution, but, the alternatives seem cheaper and potential offer options that the current default does not.


It's kinda why I've always found it rather harmful communities that insist it's the "Right way" of going about things.

 

[Gorrath]

... I don't understand if this thread is parody or not.


Well! Either way.

I guess I've always wondered the following semi-related thought.

"Why is so much effort put into transition over acceptance or removal of these feelings"?

I mean, ultimately, the pursuit of transgenderism is the ceasing of the urge to be another gender. So, I never quite got why the majority of efforts in regards to reaching these goals are via becoming the gender in question rather than acceptance of the situation via neuroscience, medication or therapy.

Not that it's a bad option, I mean, it's a solution, but, the alternatives seem cheaper and potential offer options that the current default does not.


It's kinda why I've always found it rather harmful communities that insist it's the "Right way" of going about things.

I think it's because it runs counter to how they feel. I mean, if you're a male who feels like you should be a woman, you'd likely opt into becoming a woman rather than trying to get rid of how you feel. I'm not sure you can say which path would be less costly or easier either as it may depend heavily on the individual. My wife is a female who thinks of herself as male but has no interest in actually transitioning, she is pretty much fine with the sex she was born as even if she feels like she'd rather have been born a male. For her, it's simply not a big enough deal to need either solution. YOu might find some for whom therapy might be a good route and some for whom physically transitioning might be the best route.

In any case, I think it's best for us to accept what people want for themselves so long as it isn't super self destructive (alcoholism, ect.) and hurts no one else.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

... I don't understand if this thread is parody or not.


Well! Either way.

I guess I've always wondered the following semi-related thought.

"Why is so much effort put into transition over acceptance or removal of these feelings"?

I mean, ultimately, the pursuit of transgenderism is the ceasing of the urge to be another gender. So, I never quite got why the majority of efforts in regards to reaching these goals are via becoming the gender in question rather than acceptance of the situation via neuroscience, medication or therapy.

Not that it's a bad option, I mean, it's a solution, but, the alternatives seem cheaper and potential offer options that the current default does not.


It's kinda why I've always found it rather harmful communities that insist it's the "Right way" of going about things.

The right thing is allowing people to emulate in mind and body as they please. Essentialism is a dead field in scientific theory, and even the most ardent supporters since the discovery of DNA back in the 40s have overturned their ideas for an ideology of self-construction and environment.

Also, years of psychiatric medicine and counselling is not 'cheap'. It's also utterly unnecessary, when the psychological health of the patient is best observed by offering real treatment options that could include HRT, surgery, both or none.

Pretending like you can 'pray/drug the trans away' is not ethically, or medically, observable to be good for patients.

In the meantime stop reading Sheila Jeffreys, Earth is over here buddy.

 

[Ladylotus]

"Why is so much effort put into transition over acceptance or removal of these feelings"?

I mean, ultimately, the pursuit of transgenderism is the ceasing of the urge to be another gender. So, I never quite got why the majority of efforts in regards to reaching these goals are via becoming the gender in question rather than acceptance of the situation via neuroscience, medication or therapy.

Neuroscience is iffy at best, medication is putting a bandage on a problem and hiding it, and conversion 'therapy' is what leads to suicide of many trans people.

I mean, trans people should be who we are. We shouldn't be murdered, raped, or disowned because of something we can't control. We shouldn't be expected to conform to what society demands (without understanding), especially since gender dysphoria is so horrible for so many.

 

[Drathnoxis]

I think I could do that. Although, I'm not really sure that girls act a whole lot different than guys. Maybe a couple more shopping trips, and hair appointments? I've always wondered what it'd be like to wear dresses and makeup and such.

So, sure. I'm not all that attached to my gender.

Pardon my skepticism, but I think your response is rather flippant and lacks any measure of empathy, which was the point of posing that question. Most people are rather attached to their gender identities, and asking them to convincingly live as another gender, all the time, is not only nigh impossible (re: the idea that the main difference in gender differences between men and women ammounts to 'more shopping trips and hair appointments'), but will also be a great source of psychological distress.

That came across wrong, I didn't mean to say that I support or believe in gender stereotypes, but I really can't think of anything that is exclusive to one gender or the other without resorting to those shallow stereotypes. So tell me, what is the difference between the genders then?

Perhaps, instead of putting the onus on trans people to not live authentically in the name of their own safety, we should instead focus on those that harm and marginalize trans people.

But there's always going to be hateful scumbags, you can't really control that and it seems to me that the easiest way to avoid getting stabbed up by said scumbags is to avoid attracting their attention.

 

[BeerTent]

Whenever there is a thread on transsexuals, people always bring up how persecuted they are. How you can get harassed, assaulted, raped, or murdered just for being trans. In a recent thread someone listed some numbers. I didn't fact check them or anything, but here they are.[...]

I've said this once before. I'm gonna say it again. It's something I heard a while back, and something I've come to strongly believe in more than anything else.

So I'll quote part of that thing because I'm a pretentious fuck.

This is something that was told to me recently. And I feel that the more we beat this into the head of the general public, the better.

You can't pick your parents.

"But, BeerTent, this is totally unrelated!" You say, slack-jawed to your monitor.

"Nay!" the horse said. Now THAT's unrelated right there! THAT is what you should be complaining about!

What I mean from this is that this statement is more than just your parents. Your genetic makeup is another example. Your living situation. Where you're born. Some would disagree with me when I say something like your sexual orientation is part of your genetic makeup. But they're retarded so they don't count. Knowing that I'm right on the orientation bit,[footnote]I'm always right, you should know this by now.[/footnote] there's another thing that I myself had come to gripes with a while back.[Cut out part about fetishes and pedophilia...]

Every single human being has a physical presence, and a mental presence. Obviously, right? My mind is telling my body to move my hands to convey a message to you. That being said, my body is also conveying a reality that only I can experience. Again, pretty obvious. Your friend is tripping balls in the other room after taking a bit of LSD and ecstasy, you're not experiencing the same reality he is. You see someone playing with themselves and giggling in the bathtub. What they see and experience... Well, I'll probably never find that one out, because quite frankly... I digress!!

When it comes to transgendered people, they experience a different reality than you. Just like how in my reality, I'm a Tent, but that's something totally different. Some people think of themselves as "I am a woman. I identify as a woman, and woman things are for me." And then they stand naked in a mirror.

Spoiler: Because the realization is just too big. (You know I can't resist this joke.)

Hell, it could be the other way around. "I am a man. I do manly things..." and then they look in a mirror...

Spoiler: No, no fucking reaction gif this time.

Why did you check anyway?! Fuck, you people need to truust meeee~

So, in your mind, you are a male, it is irrefutable, and yet, you feel like you're in this prison of a female body that's not you. It's actually not too unlike the character creation process of GTAO when you want to look like yourself, and then this weird fucking, skinny-ass, big-lipped, perma-terrified, tattoo-less[footnote]All of GTAO's tats suck. Sorry.[/footnote] wankstain is what others see of you. It's you, and you hate every bit of it.

So, now you have a choice. Go through the unspeakable to alter your body the way you know you should be, or suffer through your external prison for the rest of your life.

 

[The Lunatic]

Snip

An interesting answer! I agree entirely about respecting people's wishes and all that. Thanks for providing some information on the subject in question.

I rather wonder if, as times goes on, and our understanding of the brain developers, we'll be able to better tackle these issues in those that want them tackled.

In the meantime stop reading Sheila Jeffreys, Earth is over here buddy.

I have no idea who that is, but, I'd appreciate not being insulted for suggesting a curiosity. Thanks.

Snip

Of course. I suggest these as theories more than actual things. With more research in these fields, we don't know for sure what the results are. I mean, we know so little of the brain and behaviour that potential treatments may come in a variety of forms. However, I just find it odd that so much focus is placed on what a lot of people seem to find an inadequate solution.




It's a difficult problem. It has some parallels to homosexuality, I find.

As somebody who is gay, I have to question that, if as we learn more about the brain, we discover the ability to make homosexuals attracted the women, would that be better? Would I be happier in life if that was the case?

I mean, I can't say for sure that I wouldn't. Not that I'm unhappy with who I am, but, I do wonder.

 

[Hyperme]

But there's always going to be hateful scumbags, you can't really control that and it seems to me that the easiest way to avoid getting stabbed up by said scumbags is to avoid attracting their attention.

I'm assuming you've never been a victim of any kind of bullying, because this is the kind of logic bullies use to excuse their actions. People shouldn't have to hide who they are because some jackass doesn't like it. Which is what people have been saying for three pages. Bigots are the bad guys since they're actively causing harm!

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

I have no idea who that is, but, I'd appreciate not being insulted for suggesting a curiosity. Thanks.

Pointing out parallels in someone's espoused 'curiosities' to someone else's disproven works is insulting? You'll forgive me if this isn't more than a little personal, when people insinuate that being trans is enough to justify being trotted through the psychiatric health system.

 

[The Lunatic]

Pointing out parallels in someone's espoused 'curiosities' to someone else's disproven works is insulting? You'll forgive me if this isn't more than a little personal, when people insinuate that being trans is enough to justify being trotted through the psychiatric health system.

Telling somebody that "Earth is over here buddy." in response to a curiosity they suggest is being pretty insulting. I'm just saying I'd rather if you didn't.

I didn't intend any offence, and I don't really believe there's any to be had. Regardless, responding to somebody by suggesting that their views are "Out of this world" isn't the polite way to go about discussing such things.

 

[Gorrath]

Snip

An interesting answer! I agree entirely about respecting people's wishes and all that. Thanks for providing some information on the subject in question.

I rather wonder if, as times goes on, and our understanding of the brain developers, we'll be able to better tackle these issues in those that want them tackled.

It's an interesting subject really, one that's close to me. I'm glad you can see that respect for an individual's wishes is paramount. Many tend to form along the two lines, one of which insists that being trans is a "problem" that needs "fixed" and another which insists that anyone who feels like they don't quite feel right in their skin needs major surgery/hormone therapy and a new wardrobe. Letting each individual decide for themselves is the most respectful route we can all take. If you've any other questions about it, I can share more knowledge if you want.

I have no idea who that is, but, I'd appreciate not being insulted for suggesting a curiosity. Thanks.

Pointing out parallels in someone's espoused 'curiosities' to someone else's disproven works is insulting? You'll forgive me if this isn't more than a little personal, when people insinuate that being trans is enough to justify being trotted through the psychiatric health system.

It is worth saying though that some might want to opt for therapy to rid themselves of their feelins rather than tansition. While I am staunchly against anyone who suggests that being trans is a mental health problem, I would still say that if someone wants to seek therapy rather than tansition, that should be just as much a valid choice and they should not be shamed for it. I say this with a huge caveat though, any therapy should only be offered as an elective solution and not as a "fix." Feeling trans shouldn't prompt people to talk or think about those feelings as something that needs a "cure." But hey, if there was an effective way of making me bi-sexual instead of straight, I'd be all over it!