If being transexual is so dangerous, why would anybody go in for that lifestyle?

[C14N]

As far as I'm aware, people don't choose it, it's a biological thing. It's like asking "why do people choose to be gay?" or "why do people choose to be black?". They're objectively harder lives but you get the hand your dealt.

 

[Gorrath]

As far as I'm aware, people don't choose it, it's a biological thing. It's like asking "why do people choose to be gay?" or "why do people choose to be black?". They're objectively harder lives but you get the hand your dealt.

I believe the OP was asking why people would chose to lead a life which outed them as trans not so much why they felt that way. You can feel trans without choosing any lifestyle which would give those feelings away. Some people chose to lead a life where their trans feelings are hidden while others chose a life that outs those feelings. Still, the answer is rather obvious I think. If you feel strongly about something, chances are you'll elect to live your life that way, even if it is detrimental to you in other ways. And of course it should go without saying that no one should be hasstled or harassed for eitehr lifestyle choice.

 

[Gorrila_thinktank]

There's a very beautiful line from Almodóvar's "All About My Mother" written just for you:

It costs a lot to be authentic (...) you are more authentic the more you resemble what you've dreamed of being.

Good post Bro.

I think its time to quote the greatest book ever written, designed for questions just like these:


"'Does it hurt?' asked the Rabbit.

'Sometimes,' said the Skin Horse, for he was always truthful. 'When you are Real you don't mind being hurt.'

'Does it happen all at once, like being wound up,' he asked, 'or bit by bit?'

'It doesn't happen all at once,' said the Skin Horse. 'You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in the joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand.? "

― Margery Williams, The Velveteen Rabbit

Or, my personal motto (bleeped bad words)

" BUT AS A REAL [bleep], YOU CAN'T Never afford to give up, 'cause ALL REAL [bleep] ONLY WAITING ON One opportunity, and that's the OPPORTUNITY TO SHOW A [bleep] THEY AIN'T BULL[bleep], AND I Bet them tigers had got as low as they could possibly get, and then something wonderful happened in the tiger world."
-Kat Willaims

For most of the Trans people I know this is like the defining thing about them. Fate hands them one thing and they get sassy back in fate's face, being all "nuh uh, oh no you didn't fate. Oh no you did-n't!" then they lay the smack down. In the form of breaking social molds. Which often comes back to bite them.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Telling somebody that "Earth is over here buddy." in response to a curiosity they suggest is being pretty insulting. I'm just saying I'd rather if you didn't.

I didn't intend any offence, and I don't really believe there's any to be had. Regardless, responding to somebody by suggesting that their views are "Out of this world" isn't the polite way to go about discussing such things.

Uh-huh. Well you can believe whatever you like to. You can also believe that I tried to personally sting you with something. If you want me to rephrase; You have no idea about the psychiatric health service or what it can reasonably treat, nor the ineffectuality of conversion therapy. You labour under a ridiculous ideology of the nature of self.

Saying your ideas are divorced from reality or 'out of this world' seems much nicer than that to me.

 

[Knight Captain Kerr]

Snip

Snip

Thanks, strangely enough these comments actually make me feel better about all this. And yeah, I think Genderqueer is probably the best term to describe my gender identity.

One of these days I might actually build up the courage and 'out' myself to one of my best friends (in other words just talk to him about it.) He was one of the first people who I told I was Bi and it turned out he was too which was pretty funny.

 

[Techno Squidgy]

stealth trans people

Do they get cloaking devices? Or just a small radar signature?

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

It is worth saying though that some might want to opt for therapy to rid themselves of their feelins rather than tansition. While I am staunchly against anyone who suggests that being trans is a mental health problem, I would still say that if someone wants to seek therapy rather than tansition, that should be just as much a valid choice and they should not be shamed for it. I say this with a huge caveat though, any therapy should only be offered as an elective solution and not as a "fix." Feeling trans shouldn't prompt people to talk or think about those feelings as something that needs a "cure." But hey, if there was an effective way of making me bi-sexual instead of straight, I'd be all over it!

That's why it's always safest to provide the most amount of options. For example, I identify as genderqueer; went HRT, I had an orchiectomy, kind of undecided on other surgeries. Who knows whether I'll get more surgeries or not, who can say? In the end, if a sexual health doctor clears you for HRT and surgery, and a psychologist clears you, then the treatment path should lie in what the patient wants.

That's it.

There's plenty of trans people that say 'no' to both HRT or any types of surgery. In Australia, you need to have some form of GRS to be able to change your sex on your legal documentation. Which I think is an affront to the civil liberty of the trans person, who might then be forced to proceed with some form of GRS to do so. For me personally? I didn't care. But the second we pretend that you can merely stop being trans by just talking to someone is going to cause way more harm than good. It's about self-construction, which is why conversion therapy has systemic problems.

More so, giving people medication that tries to drug away them being trans. Which, let's face it, is likely to be lifelong anti-depressants more than anything else. Plenty of trans youth out there on them because of years of repression against their identity. It's a sickening concept that somebody should entertain anti-depressants and conversion therapy (when there is no actual therapeutical benefit) as a 'solution', however.

 

[Gorrath]

It is worth saying though that some might want to opt for therapy to rid themselves of their feelins rather than tansition. While I am staunchly against anyone who suggests that being trans is a mental health problem, I would still say that if someone wants to seek therapy rather than tansition, that should be just as much a valid choice and they should not be shamed for it. I say this with a huge caveat though, any therapy should only be offered as an elective solution and not as a "fix." Feeling trans shouldn't prompt people to talk or think about those feelings as something that needs a "cure." But hey, if there was an effective way of making me bi-sexual instead of straight, I'd be all over it!

That's why it's always safest to provide the most amount of options. For example, I identify as genderqueer; went HRT, I had an orchiectomy, kind of undecided on other surgeries. Who knows whether I'll get more surgeries or not, who can say? In the end, if a sexual health doctor clears you for HRT and surgery, and a psychologist clears you, then the treatment path should lie in what the patient wants.

That's it.

There's plenty of trans people that say 'no' to both HRT or any types of surgery. In Australia, you need to have some form of GRS to be able to change your sex on your legal documentation. Which I think is an affront to the civil liberty of the trans person, who might then be forced to proceed with some form of GRS to do so. For me personally? I didn't care. But the second we pretend that you can merely stop being trans by just talking to someone is going to cause way more harm than good. It's about self-construction, which is why conversion therapy has systemic problems.

More so, giving people medication that tries to drug away them being trans. Which, let's face it, is likely to be lifelong anti-depressants more than anything else. Plenty of trans youth out there on them because of years of repression against their identity. It's a sickening concept that somebody should entertain anti-depressants and conversion therapy (when there is no actual therapeutical benefit) as a 'solution', however.

Right, I agree with all of that but the treatment The Lunatic and I were referencing is purely theoretical. Current "conversion" or "reparative" therapies are a joke, which is why they are banned in some states in the U.S. However , if there was an effective therapy to deal with those feelings and someone wanted to proceed along that route, I don't think they should be shamed for it. There are those in the gay community that are really harsh to those who seek out "conversion" therapy, not because the therapy is bunk but because they view anyone wanting to get rid of the sexual orientation and replace it with another as an injustice against all gay people.

I merely submit that respecting people's choices is what we should all do, gay and stright, trans and cis and every flavor in between. That's why I mentioned at the end of my post that if tehre were an effective way to change my orientation to bi-sexual, I'd be all over it. Maybe some day there will be, and if it does come to pass and people want to use that method, they should be allowed to do so without hassle. If there was a drug someone could take that would rid them of their trans feelings and someone wanted to opt into that, more power to them.

I do agree with you that the current treatments should be avoided and are full of crap but even so, if people want to opt in, that's their choice. I would warn them against it and point them to resources that explain their uselessness but I'd never condemn them for wanting to try it themselves or for wanting to change how they feel.

 

[Addendum_Forthcoming]

Right, I agree with all of that but the treatment The Lunatic and I were referencing is purely theoretical. Current "conversion" or "reparative" therapies are a joke, which is why they are banned in some states in the U.S. However , if there was an effective therapy to deal with those feelings and someone wanted to proceed along that route, I don't think they should be shamed for it. There are those in the gay community that are really harsh to those who seek out "conversion" therapy, not because the therapy is bunk but because they view anyone wanting to get rid of the sexual orientation and replace it with another as an injustice against all gay people.

I merely submit that respecting people's choices is what we should all do, gay and stright, trans and cis and every flavor in between. That's why I mentioned at the end of my post that if tehre were an effective way to change my orientation to bi-sexual, I'd be all over it. Maybe some day there will be, and if it does come to pass and people want to use that method, they should be allowed to do so without hassle. If there was a drug someone could take that would rid them of their trans feelings and someone wanted to opt into that, more power to them.

I do agree with you that the current treatments should be avoided and are full of crap but even so, if people want to opt in, that's their choice. I would warn them against it and point them to resources that explain their uselessness but I'd never condemn them for wanting to try it themselves or for wanting to change how they feel.

Right, but I'm saying something like CBT is impossible in something as complex as trans identity for the same reason CBT fails for homosexuality. What we know of the formulation of the self in terms of identity, sexual or gender, is that it is a multiplicity of factors. Genetics, womb conditions, self validation... CBT is GREAT for treating self destructive, ACQUIRED behaviourism. Not gender or sexual identity.

So what you're talking is magic. You'd need to rework cell development, squeeze in brain reconfiguration, the whole works. Physical and psychosocial. Which would make such an implausibly refined individual treatment well and truly unethical to begin with. You're literally talking targeted personality rewriting. On all levels.

 

[OreoDoublestuff]

Perhaps, instead of putting the onus on trans people to not live authentically in the name of their own safety, we should instead focus on those that harm and marginalize trans people.

But there's always going to be hateful scumbags, you can't really control that and it seems to me that the easiest way to avoid getting stabbed up by said scumbags is to avoid attracting their attention.

"Hateful scumbags" is a gross oversimplification, even while it's often true, of those that want to push trans-people back in their closets. When reading through threads on transgenderism, many of the counter-arguments i see used are based on out-dated stereotypes, wholly inaccurate statements of fact, and handfuls of assumptions. Meaning that the person using it is simply drawing a conclusion based on bad information given to them.

That's where not being stealth comes in. If every transperson lived in stealth, then there would be no one to present the realty of our situation, no one to give those rational but misinformed people the information they can use to draw new conclusions. At the very least, it can help ensure that future generations can actually see and learn about the subject, before they fall into the same assumptions as their fore-bearers.

On a more personal note, i am not stealth because i tried exactly what you suggested and i ended up with seven lost years and a personality disorder. i am out not because i'm not afraid of other people, but because i'm more afraid of myself, were i to continue as i had.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

They are whom they are and they should live they way they feel they are. Ok, I will say that i wouldn't want to date a transgen person BUT i want them to live a happy life and not be threatened, attacked for who they are. People may flame me but its the same thing i feel for gay people. Im straight, but doesnt mean i dont want gay people to have a crappy live. Ok some people hate but keep it to yourself. What other people do is none of your business. Everyone deserves to live life on their own terms, how they want. Life is to short to hate.

 

[Jux]

That came across wrong, I didn't mean to say that I support or believe in gender stereotypes, but I really can't think of anything that is exclusive to one gender or the other without resorting to those shallow stereotypes. So tell me, what is the difference between the genders then?

Well, if gender identity is rooted in the brain (and there is plenty of evidence of sexual dimorphism in brain scans[footnote]http://cercor.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2012/08/09/cercor.bhs253.full[/footnote][footnote]http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702304854804579234030532617704[/footnote][footnote]http://press.endocrine.org/doi/full/10.1210/jcem.85.5.6564[/footnote]), then that is one place to start. I would say that qualifying ones gender identity is a mostly subjective and personal experience. I can't tell you exactly what makes me feel 'male', but I know that I do.

But there's always going to be hateful scumbags, you can't really control that and it seems to me that the easiest way to avoid getting stabbed up by said scumbags is to avoid attracting their attention.

As I'm not trans, I can't personally attest to the 'easiest' way of avoiding people that would kill me for being trans, but 'easiest' methods aren't always the 'best' methods, or 'most effective'. When we put the responsibility on trans people to not get killed because of someone elses irrational, shitty attitude, it doesn't exactly send the message 'we as a society value living authentically'.

Did we tell civil rights advocates 60 years ago 'well, it's certainly not right that you live as second class citizens, but you know.... keeping your head down and not attracting the attention of racist scumbags is probably the easiest way to not get brutalized or killed!' edit: actually, some people did say that, and MLK Jr had quite a bit to say about those people, see his letter from a Birmingham jail

There will always be bad drivers out there, but it isn't going to keep me from leaving my house because one day one of them might hit and kill me.

In this case, a solution shouldn't be unnecessarily restrictive on the people not going around stabbing people for what's in between (or used to be between) their legs.

 

[Drathnoxis]

EDIT: I was wondering if your numbers for suicide rates made a distinction of transsexuals who were openly transsexual and ones who were not.

Since you did seem interested, and I promised I'd get back to you, here's the 41% statistic. [http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/research/suicide-attempts-among-transgender-and-gender-non-conforming-adults/]

The reference of over half of trans people having attempted suicide before the age of 20 is a self-admittedly fallible projection by the Youth Suicide Prevention Program. [http://www.yspp.org/about_suicide/statistics.htm]

Among other statistics, PACE, an LGBT charity, found 48% attempted suicide before the age of 26 and 59% considered suicide in the past year, which is more than double that of the general population. [http://www.pacehealth.org.uk/news-and-blogs/news/rare-study-finds-trans-youth-significantly-more-likely-attempt-suicide/] 59% of youth have thought of suicide at least once while 89% of transgender people have, so they're 50% more likely to think of it as an option once and more than twice as likely to think of it within the past year, which is typically used to gauge frequency. That doesn't necessarily translate to double the suicidal thoughts - it could be more than double, it could be less.

Hmm, none of those sources give numbers on whether closet transgenders have a higher rate of suicide than open transgenders. I guess that would be a pretty hard thing to get statistics on though. However, the first source says

The study suggests that several minority stressors ? negative experiences related to anti-transgender bias ? may contribute to elevated prevalence of suicide attempts among transgender people, such as experiences of harassment, family rejection, housing instability, and discrimination in health care.

That would suggest that openly transgender individuals would be at higher risk of suicide due to the increase in external negative influences that they will be under due to 'trans bias'. If the increased abuse/rejection causes increased suicide rates, then the decreased abuse/rejection for closet trangenders would mean lower suicide rates. Although without the suicide rates on closet transgenders you can't really say anything with any amount of certainty.

 

[Vault101]

[snip.

ok seriously at first I was a bit confused as to weather or not we were all falling pretty to poes law and if your post was some kind of satire because I have a hard time believing someone could be so utterly cluess here

but anyway to put it in really simple on trans terms

there is idea that when the inner self matched the outer self then the more happy we are. We express this in both large and small ways, from how we identify outright to the kind of shoes we wear

when people wear clothes they dislike they often say it feels like a "costume" and its just "not right"

same thing for gay people, and same thing for trans

 

[Drathnoxis]

[snip.

ok seriously at first I was a bit confused as to weather or not we were all falling pretty to poes law and if your post was some kind of satire because I have a hard time believing someone could be so utterly cluess here

but anyway to put it in really simple on trans terms

there is idea that when the inner self matched the outer self then the more happy we are. We express this in both large and small ways, from how we identify outright to the kind of shoes we wear

when people wear clothes they dislike they often say it feels like a "costume" and its just "not right"

same thing for gay people, and same thing for trans

Okay, and I was suggesting in that post you quoted that the happiness caused by being out of the "costume" could possibly be outweighed by all the harassment/rejection/abuse that trans individuals receive. But, as I said without any numbers on closet trans suicides that idea doesn't have much weight.

Edit: For an example, let's say you buy a sweater that you think makes you look really good, but then someone says it makes you look like a bundle of water balloons shoved in roadkill. Will the fact that you were happy that you thought the sweater made you look really good outweigh the mean comment that the person made? What if a lot of people were saying the same thing?

I just wanted to know if being happy with your body is really worth all of the negativity. And judging by the responses of the thread, it is. I'm still not really sure why, but whatever, I'm not the one who has to be a martyr.

 

[KyuubiNoKitsune-Hime]

[snip.

ok seriously at first I was a bit confused as to weather or not we were all falling pretty to poes law and if your post was some kind of satire because I have a hard time believing someone could be so utterly cluess here

but anyway to put it in really simple on trans terms

there is idea that when the inner self matched the outer self then the more happy we are. We express this in both large and small ways, from how we identify outright to the kind of shoes we wear

when people wear clothes they dislike they often say it feels like a "costume" and its just "not right"

same thing for gay people, and same thing for trans

Okay, and I was suggesting in that post you quoted that the happiness caused by being out of the "costume" could possibly be outweighed by all the harassment/rejection/abuse that trans individuals receive. But, as I said without any numbers on closet trans suicides that idea doesn't have much weight.

As a trans person, being able to express myself is far simpler, despite it being riskier, than trying to hide it. Having to hide it turns it into a shame, that leads to depression, which in turn can lead to suicidal thoughts. Trust me when I tell you people can be their own worst enemies. I'd rather take a chance at being abused by someone and be happy with myself, rather than have to bottle it up and be constantly miserable instead. You ask any number of gay or trans people this question, is it better to be out of the closet, rather than in? The answer is almost universally a yes.

 

[Vault101]

]Okay, and I was suggesting in that post you quoted that the happiness caused by being out of the "costume" could possibly be outweighed by all the harassment/rejection/abuse that trans individuals receive. But, as I said without any numbers on closet trans suicides that idea doesn't have much weight.
.

did it ever occur to you people kill themselves if they're FORCED to be closeted? hell the most prominent death recently, Leelah Alcorn killed herself partly because [I/]she thought she'd never be able to be who she really was[/I]

[quote/]For an example, let's say you buy a sweater that you think makes you look really good, but then someone says it makes you look like a bundle of water balloons shoved in roadkill.[/quote]
we all make consessions to varying degrees...but YES because that person is likely an idiot and their opinions don't matter

In Australia, you need to have some form of GRS to be able to change your sex on your legal documentation.

huh...I didn't know that

that's particularly problematic given not all trans people would WANT GRS...I hear that the options for trans men aren't that great

 

[Valkrex]

Being trans IS NOT A FUCKING CHOICE! Neither is being gay, or bi, or pan, or whatever. Sexuality and gender identity is not something you choose, its just part of who you are.

 

[SadisticFire]

Off topic quoting

Jeeze, I didn't know I had a doppleganger. Well, except for the brother. We don't speak too much.
OT:
Uhm~ I respect how polite you're trying to be OP, but it seems a bit misguided. Transexualism isn't reallllly an option, if they were doing it as a hobby or personal enjoyment, I would say that's more pinned for being a transvestite. Transexual/Gender dysmorphia is an actual mental disease. Well, that's a misnomer. It's abnormal, and it's debilitating. It causes extreme distress to the victim of it, and can lead to some serious repercussions, such as suicide and what not. Someone who might not have all the idea or facts might just ask "Why not therapy?"
It's because it just.. doesn't work. Not very well, anyways. And why should we, anyways? It's not like they're harming themselves when they physiologically become a girl/boy. It's their life, and we should just let them live it how they want. If they rather therapy, then yay! If they rather get hormonal replacements, then yay! We shouldn't simply go 'no that life is too dangerous because others disagree with it'. Because that could be said about blacks, lesbians and gays, so many things.
Not sure where I'm going with this anymore, so Ima cut myself off. I'll quote a person real quick though

Not that it's a bad option, I mean, it's a solution, but, the alternatives seem cheaper and potential offer options that the current default does not.

I'm inclined to agree with you, other than the reason above. Their life, their choice. But it may simply be that other treatments aren't effective. I mean, it could be hardwired in their mind that they are another gender. Short of brain surgery(which we're no where close to being able to do) it might not be possible. And I can't think of any drugs that would be effective at this