If you could change something about your countries history
- Thread starter Kinokohatake
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No disrespect intended, but when I read this post, I was ready to bust a vein in response.Frission said:
But you cannot be serious regarding the reparations of WWI being greater than that of the Franco-Prussian War. In relative terms, the French had to pay the German Empire five billion francs in 1871, while the Germans had to pay a hundred and thirty-two billion marks in 1919 (onwards). In real terms, that equates to the French owing USD30billion in 2012 compared to the Germans owing USD450billion in 2012. Whichever way you cut it, the Germans would always suffer the greater hardship.
The only possible counter you can have against this is that the French were given a time limit of five years to pay. How long did it take for them to pay? Considering one of the terms of the Treaty of Versailles 1871 was the continued occupation of eastern France until the payment was completed, the final German regiments crossed the border in 1873. Germany (no thanks to Hitler) only finished paying the WWI reparations in 2010. Even under JM Keynes' analysis, even if they paid regularly for as long as their economy could afford it, payment would only be completed in 1988. The fuck-up with the Treaty of Versailles was that Germany was not significantly pacified, conciliated or weakened to justifiably maintain a state of peace. However, you'd be hard pressed to find a solution that would be both acceptable to all and workable in bringing about the immediate recovery of international prosperity except the complete and utter total annihilation of the German speaking world, and I swear to God if anyone posts something supporting such a notion even as a joke, I'll pour so much vitriol into my response I'll be banned.
Sure the Paris Commune was not a good episode, particularly Thier's reprisal, but compared to Germany, France got a hell of a lot of help and was economically stable again within twenty years, and she had a lot of friends, to the extent that even Britain the Old Enemy warmed to France culminating in the state visit of 1903 by Edward VII which ensured definite peace if not outright political support between France and Britain for the first time in god only knows how long. After WWI, few nations were willing to help Germany recover and those that were, were either Austria (and in a likewise shit-hole state) or villified by the powers that mattered, so they did nothing. How was that supposed to aid pacification and conciliation?
See, war between Austria & Serbia would've happened almost regardless, because Germany regarded Austria as the useless big brother of the German speaking world and Serbia hardly registered on their radar. Austria was a failing empire, too diverse and too centralised to be anything more than a quadraplegic on the verge. No, if you want to blame someone German for this, blame Bismarck and, within this context, his influence over the young pre-1888 Prince Wilhelm and driving a wedge between him and his father. Had Frederick III been allowed to raise his son as he wished, the German Empire would've followed the way of the British Empire (i.e. constitutional monarchy) within twenty years (i.e. before 1910), France would've been reconciled with Germany and not need two World Wars to smash it into both their heads as would Poland (though Poland would probably exist as the Grand Duchy of Warsaw or something along those lines, though I like to think Frederick would've ceded part of the Duchy of Prussia to them as a gesture, however unlikely that may have been). And Frederick was regarded with respect and admiration in France, tempered only by the fact that he was German.
OT: As a Brit - administration of the thirteen colonies. They had taxation, but without possibility of self-arbitration. Parliament insisted on micromanaging everything that happened over the pond, and they were bound to hash it up. Grant the colonies an extent of autonomy of government, effectively as a protectorate of the British Empire and the American Revolution need not have ever happened.
As a Cantonese - don't really know... I think my old man's childhood could've been better without the Japanese occupation... *shrug*
Honestly i don't think i would change a thing. Don't get me wrong as an American i realize that we have done some horrible things over our countries history, but try to follow my logic. Lets start with the whole stopping of WWII, yes stopping the war would save millions of lives, but look at whats come out of it. First of all if there was no WWII there is no cold war which jumped technology forward at a rapid pace meaning if there was no WWII we would be far less technologically advanced as we are. Second the only reason America came out of the depression it was in was because of all the jobs created by the war, selfish reason i know but a reason none the less.
As for slavery, without the amount of slaves working as long as they did we would not have become as powerful as fast as we did. Again a selfish reason but still a reason.
As for more recent events, whose to say that if you stop 9/11 Osama wouldn't have choosen a different more populated target. Without the following invasion of the middle east whose to say that Osama or Saddam wouldn't have done something even worse in the next number of years.
Who knows maybe if those things never happened the world wouldn't be affected in any discernible way, I'm just trying to show that no matter how bad something seems there is usually something good that can come out of it.
I am not trying to offend anybody or sound like some arrogant asshole I'm just expressing what i feel is a valid point of view and an interesting perspective of the topic.
As for slavery, without the amount of slaves working as long as they did we would not have become as powerful as fast as we did. Again a selfish reason but still a reason.
As for more recent events, whose to say that if you stop 9/11 Osama wouldn't have choosen a different more populated target. Without the following invasion of the middle east whose to say that Osama or Saddam wouldn't have done something even worse in the next number of years.
Who knows maybe if those things never happened the world wouldn't be affected in any discernible way, I'm just trying to show that no matter how bad something seems there is usually something good that can come out of it.
I am not trying to offend anybody or sound like some arrogant asshole I'm just expressing what i feel is a valid point of view and an interesting perspective of the topic.
I'd stop my mother tongue from existing, because it's needlessly complicated and difficult to learn, and all it's good for is insulting someone's mother/father/chosen deity/chosen deity's private parts (or lack thereof) etc...
We were under England's rule anyway, so we could still speak English.
Seriously, fuck Maltese...
We were under England's rule anyway, so we could still speak English.
Seriously, fuck Maltese...
That was pretty interesting, and sorry I didn't mean to make you angry. It was just for discussion value, not something along the lines of "IT"S ALL THOSE GERMANS FAULTS!" I'm also going to post the following to precise what I said, so tell me if I mess up and please don't be angry. It's pretty simplified.SckizoBoy said:
I was just responding to someone who seemed to think that the Versailles treaty was the sole reason for Hitler's rise to power. It helped, but it wasn't the root cause. There was rampant nationalism, the failure of the league of nations and France and Britain's failure to act (In Abyssinia and Manchuria for example). Not to mention the backstage politics where Hitler was put as Chancellor by Hindenburg and his party because they feared that the social democrats and the rising communist party would make an alliance, and they wished to use the Nazi bulk. It didn't go as planned.
I also meant that in the end Germany paid less than France in the end. Germany go out of it, I would say when it took back the Ruhr in 1925. The Treaty of Versailles was preposterous of course, all Germans agreed to that, especially on the guilt clause. That' why it was such a good rallying point. Hyper inflation after world war I, making the Deutschmark useless was devastating to the German Economy. Unemployment was the reason for Hitler's rise to power though, which arose from the Great Depression.
Bismarck did set up early 20th century Europe with the "Blood and Iron" policies sure. If Bismarck had not existed, Europe would have been very different. The entity that became known as Germany would not have declared war on France in 1870. Italian Unification might have proceeded differently. There was no real "German Empire" though just a conglomerate of small powers.
About Kaiser Wilhelm II Wilhelm: His upbringing was strict and authoritarian. He was educated first at the Kassel Gymnasium and then at the University of Bonn.
Wilhelm became emperor of Germany in 1888 following the death of Frederick II. At the time of his accession Otto von Bismarck was still German Chancellor; however he was effectively dismissed from office by Wilhelm II two years later. The elderly Bismarck proved unable - or unwilling - to manipulate the new Kaiser as he had his predecessor.
Wilhelm was an overtly militaristic man, and believed fervently in increasing the strength of Germany's armed forces. In particular he was keen to develop a German navy the equal of Britain's Royal Navy."
After Alsace and la Lorraine, there was some tension between Germany and France. "tempered by the fact that he was German" indeed.
I would guess that the main reasons for World War I were: the arms race, nationalism, imperialism and alliances. It was a war which the powers blundered into.
Ireland: Stop the Catholic Church form seizing control of the country for 70 years.
England: Stop the destruction of Doctor Who episodes.
England: Stop the destruction of Doctor Who episodes.
Ah... sorry about that... didn't mean to come down that harsh...Frission said:
Anyway, calm again... I hope. Re-read the first couple sentences of your first post and realised what you meant by the substantiation of the rest. My apologies.
Still, I suppose that in the immediate aftermath, the French did have the worse of it, since they lost Alsace & Lorraine which constituted much of their industrial output. In general, though, I agree that the whole episode is something that we could've done without as the culmination of unlearned lessons, both political and military.
Regarding Bismarck, though, it was his influence on Wilhelm when he was a young adult that rankles, because he promoted a strong nationalistic and conservatism in him to distance him from Frederick, who was (politically and ideologically) a thorn in the side of both Bismarck and the King. Any potential liberalism Wilhelm II could've expressed was lost because he became a strong nationalist in thrall of his grandfather. (Though I guess we could argue this one either way forever...(!))
Still, bit of trivia about Wilhelm II: in what way was he the odd one out about all the Kings in and of Prussia?
No, he was the only one who didn't speak Polish...Frission said:
The myriad of cultural conclusions you can come to is interesting considering that little factoid...
Swden: Get Wallenberg back home in one piece! Or at least protest against his arrest by the Soviets with something louder than a discontent murmur.
Beyond that, perhaps hand out a few fire extinguishers to the staff at the old royal castle.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Slottsbranden_1697.jpg
Whoops, there goes most of the national archives!
Beyond that, perhaps hand out a few fire extinguishers to the staff at the old royal castle.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9d/Slottsbranden_1697.jpg
Whoops, there goes most of the national archives!
You're a Northerner of British descent I take it?spudevil said:
Look I'm not one of those rabid "Brits out" type of Irish person but you've got to admit things would probably have been a lot better for both countries if your little corner of the Empire had never existed
As mentioned, White Australia or the Stolen Generation.
Or maybe the Abandoned Generation which is happening now.
Or maybe the Abandoned Generation which is happening now.