Illegal downloading is not theft - its something new

[Lord Krunk]

Don't we already have a word for it?
Yknow... piracy?

I was thinking exactly that.

 

[L.B. Jeffries]

*edit*

You know what, enough of this. I'm tired of talking to this idiot.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, man.

 

[Firzen777]

Illegal downloading IS *thief* in the terms of you acquiring something which has not intended to be free. If it has a price tag, you can either buy it which is what everyone (and by everyone I mean 99.999% of people) normally does for goods, or you can download it for free which is wrong. If someone thinks others hard work (work that goes towards a product to be sold for money) should be free then go around to shops and ask if I can take some 'free' products.

What surprises me is that games/movies nowadays aren't even that expensive. God just pay for it normally, doing something illegal and stupid isn't worth consequences if your caught.

 

[Alex_P]

If nothing is taken, then what are you downloading?
What you are *taking away* is the opportunity for the creators to benefit from the fruits of their own minds. When something is copied and distributed illegally you may not be *taking* an *object* from them, but just as much as you are transferring an abstract to yourself, you are *stealing* an abstract-if you will- from the source. You are stealing the opportunity for one to benefit from the fruits of one's mind. At the core of this philosophy that "digitally copying is not taking anything" is the idea that people should not reap any rewards, should not make any career or profession, out of anything that is the product of the mind: art, music, literature, business software, patents, new innovations and yes, games, among many others. If we were all to concede to the ideas implied by the acceptance of your behavior , we would all be destined to manual labor and industry, agriculture and distribution devoid of all innovation.

This ideal, your ideal, is that the products of your mind are not *yours*, they are everyone else's- whatever thoughts you utter, whatever words you say, whatever you write down is not yours, it is everyone's. The idea that is advocated is the enslavement of everyone's productive thoughts. Is this truly the democratic ideal that you would want, or that you want? Because it's games today- thoughts tomorrow.


Any element or resource which, in order to become of use or value to men, requires the application of human knowledge and effort, should be private property?by the right of those who apply the knowledge and effort.

All property and all forms of wealth are produced by man?s mind and labor. As you cannot have effects without causes, so you cannot have wealth without its source: without intelligence. You cannot force intelligence to work: those who?re able to think, will not work under compulsion; those who will, won?t produce much more than the price of the whip needed to keep them enslaved. You cannot obtain the products of a mind except on the owner?s terms, by trade and by volitional consent. Otherwise you are a thief--- and by your arguments, you definitely sound like one.

You've got the very basic thing right (copyright infringement is, in fact, denying someone revenue that they have a legal privilege to collect) but the rest of what you said is out of sync with the realities of copyright, patent, and trademark legislation. You're bending "intellectual property" to be something it's not -- and, in the process, you're positing a system that's downright evil.

The foundation of copyright and patent law is the idea that inventions and artistic works are fundamentally public goods, but we grant their originators a temporary monopoly as an incentive to create stuff.

This is explicitly not on "the owner's terms." The person who has rights over a patented concept or a copyrighted work has certain legally-protected rights to use it and control its use, and the public has certain legally-protected rights to use it as well. Look up "fair use" or "first sale."

"Intellectual property" is not like a plot of land. You don't get to be king of your idea, lord and master unto perpetuity. You can't control everything about it. I know it's easy to lose sight of this under the deluge of bullshit coming from various parties who want to change that.

-- Alex

 

[Uncompetative]

...and maybe options for what to call it.

I suggest using this word: filching.

Filch (verb)

pilfer or steal (something, especially a thing of small value) in a casual way.

e.g. He was guilty of filching the Windows 7 beta.

ORIGIN Middle English

 

[beddo]

I know there are other posts on illegal downloading, but this is not the same thing. This thread is to try and stop people from using the wrong words in their arguments, and to realize that in our digital world, old terms and systems dont nessecarily apply. You cant use the same rules for a digital signal that can be reproduced 1000000 times for free as you can for a loaf of bread.
Over and over again I see people making comments like `You wouldnt steal a BMW would you?` or `How would you feel if you were mugged on the street`, but these comments have nothing to do with downloading, even as an analogy.
Downloading movies, music and games is not theft. A definition of theft : The act of stealing; specifically, the felonious taking and removing of personal property, with an intent to deprive the rightful owner of the same.
When something is downloaded, the music artist, game company, etc loses nothing, there is no piece of property that vanishes from their homes or businesses. If I download a game for free, the only thing that company loses is the CHANCE to POSSIBLY sell that game to me, a chance they may never have had in the first place. For example - if someone in a country where a game is not sold to downloads it, what did the company loose? They could have never sold to that person in the first place, it would have no effect on their profits at all, so is it theft? Of course not! Did the company lose a cent? No! Is it illegal? Apparently.

Now, I am not saying that there is nothing wrong with illegal downloading. It is illegal, it can hurt the game, music, movie, etc makers. But it is not theft, it is something new that needs its own name. I just dont want to see anymore stupid arguments comparing it to breaking and entering, stealing cars or chocolate bars, etc, as I know the downloading issue is one that will be constantly brought up over and over again as new legislation passes.

In short, downloading can reduce profits, in some cases increase them by spreading knowledge of a product, and in some cases make no change in sales at all. It is not theft and should not be referred to as such. You may as well say that if you walk into a book store, sit down and read a book, then put it back on the shelf and leave that you stole from the store. Maybe call it `potential/possible loss of sales`, or `reduction in maximum possible revenue`, but not theft, and its nothing like stealing a car or any physical object.

Any posts to this thread, please lets avoid posts on if you agree or disagree with downloading, keep it to the topic of whether it is theft or something different, and maybe options for what to call it.

Downloading material without permission is theft. Criminal definitions are different to dictionary definitions.

According to the Oxford English Dictionary(Definitive dictionary of English) paraphrased:

"steal: verb

1 take(something) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it. dishonestly pass off (another person's idea's) as one's own..."

If you steal a person's idea they do not lose any money, they lose the possibility of future income from it. This is theft.

That material can be copied without directly affect the original doesn't matter. It is being taken without permission which is theft. For example, if I wrote a book I am in no way obliged to release it, if you make a copy of it a distribute it then you are stealing from me even though I had never planned to make any money from it.

Also there is financial loss, in terms of loss of future revenue and in terms of brand.

Imagine you created a car and made only made 100 so it was a limited edition, someone copies your blueprints and makes their own. This is theft, it's not affecting your original work but it depreciates its value.

So piracy affects the value of a brand, especially if it is pirated before release. It can get negative reviews which can put people off purchasing something they might have otherwise. You may not be willing to pay for something you download but someone who otherwise would could be tempted as they hear it is easy to download, so again, more loss.

You are naive if you think that just because no physical asset is being withheld from another person and there is hence no loss that it is not theft. We consider possible loss of revenue to also be theft, both in terms of English language and English and American law.

 

[Alex_P]

We consider possible loss of revenue to also be theft, both in terms of English language and English and American law.

Erm, not quite. There's much more to "intellectual property" laws than "possible loss of revenue."

Obvious counter-example:
You are a car manufacturer. You make cars. I create a magic flying car that runs on dreams and starlight.
My product is better than yours. The availability of my product kills demand for your product completely. I have denied you lots and lots of potential revenue.
But, legally, I have stolen nothing.

-- Alex

 

[knighthawk42]

I actually signed up for this topic. I think the industry uses "theft" to simplify the action. It is more easily identified with then many of the legal terms mentioned above. I do not have a problem with copywrite in general. I do not think most do. I do have a problem with things being perpetually copyrighted is a problem. How long till something falls into public domain is my question.

 

[SteveDave]

Symantics,you deny profit to a game developer, retailer, and publisher whenever you download a game. You are stealing and don't try to sugar coat it any other way.

And you're going to "steal" from me when you get my book from the library. The only difference is, I don't care.

I'm really tired of this. I really don't want to see anyone on this thread attack torrents, until they can explain to me how their ideas could not be used to attack libraries. Period.

Either we start tossing librarians in jail, or we stop attacking "pirates." Pick one.

Books are rented from the library because librarys are a paid service that is paid for by local governments. You are not paying for a game if you download it, you are breaking copyright laws. You are a thief and don't try to say your not. I hope you admit what you are and quit trying to hide behind symantics. It is very dispicable.

 

[tikiwargod]

And kudos to the OP, you may be on to something here and I agree with everything you said.
Theft is someone mugging another person and taking their money. The result is a decrease in the victims capital money , and an increase in the perpetrator's wallet.
With that in mind apply it to piracy.

*pause for a moment

See? It doesn't work now does it?
A pirate that will use said pirated game for personal use will not win any money out of it. And the company being infringed of their copy rights won't lose any because they didn't had it from the beginning!. No one loses, no one wins. It balances itself out and to all the haters saying that pirates are thieves well, go eat cacti, maybe then you'll think before posting.

As compeling of an arguement as that is, there is loss/gain of money in pirating a game. If I torrent a game I would otherwise buy then I save 60$<--(that's 60$ gain in my pocket)and the compagny doesn't make the profit of that product<--(that's money that the game developper, distributer and reseller don't make) so yes, pirates profit and compagnies suffer, if the game is available in your area then there is no reason not to buy it, if it is impossible to find, then download it but it is completely pathetic of anyone who lives in a reasonably sized city in any well-developped country to claim they are not criminals, it is technically stealing and it is a crime, it also infringes on international copyright laws.

 

[incal11]

^Internet is a paid service ; so what's the difference with a public library ?
It is all officiously accepted by the PC makers and internet providers , I think that backs me up quite nicely.

Also , I agree I can't enjoy that private jet if I just can't pay for it; I don't see why I couldn't enjoy a game I absolutely couldn't pay for but still get without pain for anyone.

Ok, it seems my last post lacked some thoughts and ended up as troll-food, so I'll try to precise my thinking a little , at least because I like to argue.
I was not trying to defend theft , no more than I was trying to defend murder and rape in that order (the way some make it sound...).


WARNING This is an hypotethical situation!
You probably won't get if you lack imagination (a sad thing for a gamer ), or just disagree Because :

-I'm in a isolated and ignored country ;
-there's a civil war and I might die tommorow, there's a game I want to play before that happens;
-the internet is heavily filtered (so no steam, but I can access some torrents using routers)
-anyway, if I somehow order it , chances it reach me are extremely slim or nonexistant.

Am I to die in misery because I can't get it legally?
even though it is something that can be replicated easily and infinitely ?

____________________
Sorry bkd69;
your taking what I mean the wrong way if you think I'm saying "it's on the internet so it's free".
I remade my point , staying on topic, just above , at least I tried.

I think more like downloading ~ theft

For those who feel that downloading==theft, please rate the following thefts on a scale of 1-10, where 1 is stealing a copy of Tom Hanks' private fax number to send him a happy birthday card, and 10 is pushing an old lady down the stairs to take her purse and her social security check:

A) Downloading a Kangaroo ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kangaroo_(arcade_game) )ROM to play in MAME
1

B) Downloading a copy of Renegade Legion: Interceptor ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renegade_Legion:_Interceptor#Computer_Game )
1

C) Downloading either the DC or the PS1 version of Dragon Riders: Chronicles of Pern( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonriders_of_Pern#Games )
1 for the games ; 4 for the books

D) Downloading a cracked copy of game that you've purchased so you can install a copy that's free from DRM
1

E) Making and mounting a disc image, or applying a no-cd patch so that you can avoid disc checks
1

F) Downloading a ROM of a GBA cart that you've purchased, to play on a GBA emu on an XBox Classic
1

G) Downloading Bioshock
5

 

[elpresidente]

Tigerml, your opinion is so biased and deprived of any logic, and is based on your hatred for downloaders, that I do not want to waste my time arguing with someone like you.

You are the one here who doesn't know how economy works. The reason why games are so RIDICULOUSLY expensive is because of human GREED not some bullshit explanation fed to you by sales managers. I am not the first to notice the ridiculousness of their price nor shall be the last one.

 

[HomeAliveIn45]

*edit*

You know what, enough of this. I'm tired of talking to this idiot.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, man.

Yeah! Pacifism DOES exist on the internet!

 

[beddo]

We consider possible loss of revenue to also be theft, both in terms of English language and English and American law.

Erm, not quite. There's much more to "intellectual property" laws than "possible loss of revenue."

Obvious counter-example:
You are a car manufacturer. You make cars. I create a magic flying car that runs on dreams and starlight.
My product is better than yours. The availability of my product kills demand for your product completely. I have denied you lots and lots of potential revenue.
But, legally, I have stolen nothing.

-- Alex

You quite clearly took that quote out of context; the sentence was clearly based on the previous statements I had made.

I was saying that potential loss from piracy is considered theft.

 

[GenHellspawn]

Ignoring the ongoing flame war, I'd have to say that my opinion is this: it's illegal, and I don't care. I enjoy stealing from capitalist pig-dogs.

 

[sequio]

If i win the lottery and the state/someone takes all the money, is it theft?

 

[Merryjest]

If nothing is taken, then what are you downloading?
What you are *taking away* is the opportu You're bending "intellectual property" to be something it's not -- and, in the process, you're positing a system that's downright evil.

MY system is evil? You are basically stating that the product and ideas of my own mind are NOT MINE. Your system calls for the slavery of man to other men, for the notion that his ideas aren't worth anything to him and he has no right to profit from them once he has concretized them. It is repulsive and repugnant, and it's clear that you have never thought how much *you* depend on the ideas of others, and on the fact that they decided to market those ideas.

Patents and copyrights are the legal implementation of the base of all property rights: a man?s right to the product of his mind.
We're not talking about ideas about how to schedule your week or how to meditate. We're talking about ideas like how to improve the accuracy of a laser so it runs on a blu-ray disc, or a game that takes 70 hours to complete and that tells a story, which took two years to make.