illegal downloads?

[Kagim]

Good one, Kagim.

Hell, I know I rarely pay for something I can have for free without hurting anyone, yeah I'm cheap, but even if I weren't, shit is priced too high nowadays, I mean, 60-80e for an average game I'll finish in a few hours? Screw that. Some games are worth the price, but they're rare nowadays. So basically, if I couldn't get my stuff for free, I'd just stick with the games I know are great and I wouldn't buy anything else... at all. Besides, I bought Silent Hill Shattered Memories and Assassin's Creed 2 yesterday for console, I dunno about Silent Hill but I do know I could have gotten Assassin's Creed for free on PC (plus, I have a 360 controller on it, so it would have pretty much been the same).

So even if I'm cheap, which I totally am, it's industry's fault that I rarely pay for something. If they invested a little less in fancy graphics and "anti-piracy" shit and more in the actual game, I would buy more games, since as I said in my previous post, I buy games that impress me, otherwise I just download them, play them (I don't even finish all of them) and then forget about them.

As long as the industry doesn't drop its safety net and stop making the same mediocre shit over and over again but with different titles and with higher price tags (that applies to the entire entertainment industry, not only gaming, but games are the most expensive, so I focus more on them), I won't buy more games than I usually buy.

Take my PSP for example. Last time I bought something for it was when I got it, got me God of War.

I know I'm not the only one thinking of it this way.

Oh, and to anyone who'd like to see things change, start boycotting the entertainment industry people, stop buying their overexploited garbage, that way, they'll have to do some brainstorming and get some original ideas out, not the same things over and over and over again.


Edit: skipped a word :$

It's the "I'm doing it because game developers are evil!" attitude.

By downloading games illegally your hurting your own cause as to why its the "Game developers fault".

When they see people take it illegally they take it as "I am taking this because i feel like it"

Taking things illegally is why DRM has become so awful.

The only way to truly say "i don't like your game" is to not buy it AND not rip it.

Not one or the other.

Edit: On a side note, the price of games hasn't gone up for a good few decades. Few people know that brand new nes games sold for around 50-60CAD dollars. Today they are still 50-60CAD for your average new game. The few that went up to 80 didn't sell well according to my Eb and HMV. New games have always been expensive.

 

[chris89300]

This is one of those issues where people on all sides ignore the elephant in the room, because when you look at it honestly there is no clear target to lay the blame on, and the solution to the problem involves change for all concerned-and people don't like change.
It's easy to label piracy as theft, and those that engage in it as thievin reprobates, but this conclusion doesnt adequatly account for all the facts.
An American politician looking to appear like there was a point to his existence was recently quoted as saying piracy was akin to smashing the plate glass window at Tiffany's and making off with a bunch of diamonds. That's fine for scaring crap out of thick people, but the rest of us will notice a few areas where the analogy breaks down-for one, when you pirate something, you take a copy rather than depriving the owner of a product they could potentialy trade to a paying customer, and you don't have a knock on effect to the prices due to insurance claims and premiums going up (there's also a lot less broken glass to sweep up).
There is, of course, the issue of sales lost due to people pirating rather than paying, but as we have no means of judging how many of these individuals would never have paid for the product as they couldnt afford it, it is an unqualified statement to suggest this is destroying sales.
The notion that people will knick anything if they can get away with it doesnt sit right with me, especialy when we consider free to play and micro-transaction gaming (gaming being another area where piracy is rife). Rather than screaming 'thief!' or punishing paying customers with verification and security measures, these companies have basically opened the doors and said "Take it, its free", with things you pay for being the juicy extras kept out back. Turns out the thieving masses are quite happy to support the companies that provide them with the products they love - Turbine, for example, enjoyed a 500% increase in profit after going free to play with Dungeons and Dragons Online, and are going to implement the same business model with Lord Of The Rings.
The micro transaction model may not work for all media, or even all games, but it does highlight some inconstencies in the wailing and gnashing we periodically here from companies regarding piracy. The internet, and IT technology in general has changed the way we do things on a fundamental level, and that has changed peoples attitudes accordingly. People are deluged with different artforms and information, more than they can possibly budget for if they were to legitimatly pay for it. Industries such as Music need to find ways to accomodate their customers and meet their needs-if they can't they will become a thing of the past. Art did just fine before the existence of big industry, and it will do just fine without it again. A few investors might be short a holiday or a new Beemer as result, personally I cant say I'll lose too much sleep over it.

Hum. Tho, I do think they're actually losing a lot more money with DRM and whatnot development than they would gain if everyone who gets the merchandise for free would buy it instead.

Good one, Kagim.

Hell, I know I rarely pay for something I can have for free without hurting anyone, yeah I'm cheap, but even if I weren't, shit is priced too high nowadays, I mean, 60-80e for an average game I'll finish in a few hours? Screw that. Some games are worth the price, but they're rare nowadays. So basically, if I couldn't get my stuff for free, I'd just stick with the games I know are great and I wouldn't buy anything else... at all. Besides, I bought Silent Hill Shattered Memories and Assassin's Creed 2 yesterday for console, I dunno about Silent Hill but I do know I could have gotten Assassin's Creed for free on PC (plus, I have a 360 controller on it, so it would have pretty much been the same).

So even if I'm cheap, which I totally am, it's industry's fault that I rarely pay for something. If they invested a little less in fancy graphics and "anti-piracy" shit and more in the actual game, I would buy more games, since as I said in my previous post, I buy games that impress me, otherwise I just download them, play them (I don't even finish all of them) and then forget about them.

As long as the industry doesn't drop its safety net and stop making the same mediocre shit over and over again but with different titles and with higher price tags (that applies to the entire entertainment industry, not only gaming, but games are the most expensive, so I focus more on them), I won't buy more games than I usually buy.

Take my PSP for example. Last time I bought something for it was when I got it, got me God of War.

I know I'm not the only one thinking of it this way.

Oh, and to anyone who'd like to see things change, start boycotting the entertainment industry people, stop buying their overexploited garbage, that way, they'll have to do some brainstorming and get some original ideas out, not the same things over and over and over again.


Edit: skipped a word :$

It's the "I'm doing it because game developers are evil!" attitude.

By downloading games illegally your hurting your own cause as to why its the "Game developers fault".

When they see people take it illegally they take it as "I am taking this because i feel like it"

Taking things illegally is why DRM has become so awful.

The only way to truly say "i don't like your game" is to not buy it AND not rip it.

Not one or the other.

NO, it's NOT the devs' fault dammit, the devs are only doing what they're told. The big boys that have 10 private jets each dictate them what junk to make. As I said it's industry's fault, but that implies something, like the fact that most people are too pussy to boycott the industry, so it all boils down to the people.
If everyone would just stop buying the same game over and over again, they would HAVE to come up with something original.

This is how it works: some company releases a good, even a great game and when the rest of the industry sees its success, they rip it off. They make clone after clone after clone, with just the graphics a little different, do you like paying for the same game 10 billion times? I don't.

So no, dev's aren't the ones to be blamed, the greedy industry is tho, and what feeds the industry? People's dumb fucking asses.

And since I'm NOT buying clones, I'm doing my part in boycotting them, so no, dude, the fault isn't mine, as I BUY ONLY GOOD GAMES, read that last bit a few times.

DRM is the big boys' thing, the devs didn't come up with it, since they very well know someone will ruin it's shit in no time, besides, the greed comes up again, since MOST PEOPLE ACTUALLY BUY THE SHITTY GAMES, so there's no reason to complain, the industry's losses "because of piracy" is something insignificant to all the cash they swim in. Does a million bucks really make a difference when they got billions upon billions of dollars? I really doubt it ...

Besides, devs aren't payed any more if their game sells better, that's also propaganda. The only ones concerned are the big boys, that's all there is to it man.

 

[chris89300]

Edit: On a side note, the price of games hasn't gone up for a good few decades. Few people know that brand new nes games sold for around 50-60CAD dollars. Today they are still 50-60CAD for your average new game. The few that went up to 80 didn't sell well according to my Eb and HMV. New games have always been expensive.

I live in France, and here, they went from 30-60 to 60-80, even more...

 

[Hiphophippo]

Clearly not theft nor copyright infringement. Nor is it destroying the music industry since the artists don't make jack off the actual CD sales anyway.
Plus if you actally think that it is that bad then you should not buy used games/cds nor borrow shit from a friend since borrowing is basically the same and the used market does more damage to the industry.

This post and picture actually just made my day. Return to your poultry life with this, your greatest ever achievement in mind.

Hilarious typo. I think you mean paltry. Unless of course you're implying he's a chicken

Regardless, I also agree 100% with the chicken.

 

[laol1999]

to do file sharing you still need people to buy the original
i like to buy cds when i can if they are at a reasonable price but with the amounts that some of these artists make for just appearing at random places will keep them in busness

 

[Kagim]

NO, it's NOT the devs' fault dammit, the devs are only doing what they're told. The big boys that have 10 private jets each dictate them what junk to make. As I said it's industry's fault, but that implies something, like the fact that most people are too pussy to boycott the industry, so it all boils down to the people.
If everyone would just stop buying the same game over and over again, they would HAVE to come up with something original.

This is how it works: some company releases a good, even a great game and when the rest of the industry sees its success, they rip it off. They make clone after clone after clone, with just the graphics a little different, do you like paying for the same game 10 billion times? I don't.

So no, dev's aren't the ones to be blamed, the greedy industry is tho, and what feeds the industry? People's dumb fucking asses.

And since I'm NOT buying clones, I'm doing my part in boycotting them, so no, dude, the fault isn't mine, as I BUY ONLY GOOD GAMES, read that last bit a few times.

DRM is the big boys' thing, the devs didn't come up with it, since they very well know someone will ruin it's shit in no time, besides, the greed comes up again, since MOST PEOPLE ACTUALLY BUY THE SHITTY GAMES, so there's no reason to complain, the industry's losses "because of piracy" is something insignificant to all the cash they swim in. Does a million bucks really make a difference when they got billions upon billions of dollars? I really doubt it ...

Besides, devs aren't payed any more if their game sells better, that's also propaganda. The only ones concerned are the big boys, that's all there is to it man.

Change the word Developer to Publisher.

Once again. No matter how much you rant and rave if you taking games illegally your only encouraging all the things your complaining about.

Unless you refuse to buy AND take illegally any of the game you consider shitty your not doing a damn thing. You gave them justification to add harder more restrictive DRM and to keep producingthe same thing.

An instance of downloading is the same thing s a sale to these people. By downloading all they see is someone not buying a product but still showing interest.

On top of that games you consider shitty people might actually like and enjoy. Just because you think they are bad doesn't make them bad.

By downloading you are effective telling them that they need DRM to grab your dollar. Not that you secretly hate there game. They don;t care if you finished it or liked it. Your still representing yourself as a person who might buy the game if DRM stopped you.

Even if your not that is what it translates into.

As to the last thing you said. Stealing a .99 Candy bar from walmart is a drop in the bucket to them, but in the future if i catch my child doing that hes in a world of shit.

Edit: On a side note, the price of games hasn't gone up for a good few decades. Few people know that brand new nes games sold for around 50-60CAD dollars. Today they are still 50-60CAD for your average new game. The few that went up to 80 didn't sell well according to my Eb and HMV. New games have always been expensive.

I live in France, and here, they went from 30-60 to 60-80, even more...

Move to Canada then. We have a whole province dedicated to you guys.

 

[y8c616]

Hello fellow Escapists. My friends and I have this conversation often. What are your views on file-sharing software? Do you class it as theft?

Personally, I think it is theft and it is slowly destroying the music industry. So, what do you think?

I personally dont think it is destroying the music industry, but it is making it a lot harder for new artists to gain major recording contracts, because as CD sales have declined, labels are less inclined to spend money on new talent. However i am of the view that labels need to stop blaming internet piracy for their decline in profits etc and start taking notice of new possible revenue streams.

Also, various surveys have shown that filesharers are on average actually spend more money on music ( be it through CDs purchased after listening to an illegally downloaded copy, going to live shows etc)

 

[chris89300]

NO, it's NOT the devs' fault dammit, the devs are only doing what they're told. The big boys that have 10 private jets each dictate them what junk to make. As I said it's industry's fault, but that implies something, like the fact that most people are too pussy to boycott the industry, so it all boils down to the people.
If everyone would just stop buying the same game over and over again, they would HAVE to come up with something original.

This is how it works: some company releases a good, even a great game and when the rest of the industry sees its success, they rip it off. They make clone after clone after clone, with just the graphics a little different, do you like paying for the same game 10 billion times? I don't.

So no, dev's aren't the ones to be blamed, the greedy industry is tho, and what feeds the industry? People's dumb fucking asses.

And since I'm NOT buying clones, I'm doing my part in boycotting them, so no, dude, the fault isn't mine, as I BUY ONLY GOOD GAMES, read that last bit a few times.

DRM is the big boys' thing, the devs didn't come up with it, since they very well know someone will ruin it's shit in no time, besides, the greed comes up again, since MOST PEOPLE ACTUALLY BUY THE SHITTY GAMES, so there's no reason to complain, the industry's losses "because of piracy" is something insignificant to all the cash they swim in. Does a million bucks really make a difference when they got billions upon billions of dollars? I really doubt it ...

Besides, devs aren't payed any more if their game sells better, that's also propaganda. The only ones concerned are the big boys, that's all there is to it man.

Change the word Developer to Publisher.

Once again. No matter how much you rant and rave if you taking games illegally your only encouraging all the things your complaining about.

Unless you refuse to buy AND take illegally any of the game you consider shitty your not doing a damn thing. You gave them justification to add harder more restrictive DRM and to keep producingthe same thing.

An instance of downloading is the same thing s a sale to these people. By downloading all they see is someone not buying a product but still showing interest.

On top of that games you consider shitty people might actually like and enjoy. Just because you think they are bad doesn't make them bad.

By downloading you are effective telling them that they need DRM to grab your dollar. Not that you secretly hate there game. They don;t care if you finished it or liked it. Your still representing yourself as a person who might buy the game if DRM stopped you.

Even if your not that is what it translates into.

As to the last thing you said. Stealing a .99 Candy bar from walmart is a drop in the bucket to them, but in the future if i catch my child doing that hes in a world of shit.

Edit: On a side note, the price of games hasn't gone up for a good few decades. Few people know that brand new nes games sold for around 50-60CAD dollars. Today they are still 50-60CAD for your average new game. The few that went up to 80 didn't sell well according to my Eb and HMV. New games have always been expensive.

I live in France, and here, they went from 30-60 to 60-80, even more...

Move to Canada then. We have a whole province dedicated to you guys.

May be so, but they're still not getting my actually earned cash.

Yeah, but that's stealing, since the bar isn't there anymore, not the same thing.

I'd like to, but I'm kinda stuck here... pft

 

[Kagim]

May be so, but they're still not getting my actually earned cash.

Then don't get upset about the consequences of your actions. That's all I am asking.

Yeah, but that's stealing, since the bar isn't there anymore, not the same thing.

It's not exactly apples and oranges either. Both actions are wrong for the same reason, your taking something you do not deserve. Regardless of the method the result is the same. You gain something without paying.

Bare in mind that with Companies like Walmart. A single .99 cent Candy bar to them costs Less then a cent. In both cases the group is not losing a penny. Yet taking the .99 cent candy bar is deemed bad while taking the 59.99 video game is laughed aside.

Neither Company has physically lost money. Yet one is accept despite being a larger cost and the other is chastised despite being a smaller cost.

I'd like to, but I'm kinda stuck here... pft

Well Quebec is always open to people from France, i think they are trying to be new France or something...

 

[Aesthetical Quietus]

For music sharing, I personally don't have anything against it. The majority of your money goes straight to the publishers. The artists make more off concerts, so go to those. [I am of course talking about the big bands. Support your local and/or smaller groups folks].

For gaming, buy the bloody game. Check it if you want to see how good it is, but for freaks sake buy the bloody thing. I don't want banhammer, so I'm not going to outright admit to it, but I feel that pirating a game then buying it is more like trying the demo out. [Especially for those freaking things that don't have 'em].

 

[chris89300]

May be so, but they're still not getting my actually earned cash.

Then don't get upset about the consequences of your actions. That's all I am asking.

Yeah, but that's stealing, since the bar isn't there anymore, not the same thing.

It's not exactly apples and oranges either. Both actions are wrong for the same reason, your taking something you do not deserve. Regardless of the method the result is the same. You gain something without paying.

Bare in mind that with Companies like Walmart. A single .99 cent Candy bar to them costs Less then a cent. In both cases the group is not losing a penny. Yet taking the .99 cent candy bar is deemed bad while taking the 59.99 video game is laughed aside.

Neither Company has physically lost money. Yet one is accept despite being a larger cost and the other is chastised despite being a smaller cost.

I'd like to, but I'm kinda stuck here... pft

Well Quebec is always open to people from France, i think they are trying to be new France or something...

It's kinda like this guy says:

For music sharing, I personally don't have anything against it. The majority of your money goes straight to the publishers. The artists make more off concerts, so go to those. [I am of course talking about the big bands. Support your local and/or smaller groups folks].

For gaming, buy the bloody game. Check it if you want to see how good it is, but for freaks sake buy the bloody thing. I don't want banhammer, so I'm not going to outright admit to it, but I feel that pirating a game then buying it is more like trying the demo out. [Especially for those freaking things that don't have 'em].

 

[Kagim]

snip

As i have already said i don't really care that people do it. Its just the lame excuses i hear people using that piss me off. The people who act like there victims or that if it wasn't for them Downloading Halo the series would have been doomed to obscurity. People act like they are entitled to free shit because they can't afford it.

The line that irritates me the most is "Well i wasn't going to get it anyways so i deserve it for free"

The logic there is mind blowing. The fact people can say those words and NOT punch themselves in the teeth immediately afterwords surprises me greatly.

It's like going to a cashier and asking for that .99 cent candy bar for free because otherwise you would never buy it. (Remember, those .99 cent candy bars at Walmart don't cost more then a penny essentially.) The logic is flawed. Both ways someone is losing money in a fashion, neither form is direct in any way, yet people instantly assume the candy bar is wrong, but ignore the game or music or video file because you cant touch it.

Not wanting something does not make you entitled to it.

It's the excuses and over justifications that annoy the piss out of me.

Now, none of that is targeted at you, I'm sorta venting here at the moment so excuse me.

What I was talking about with you was that you saying that most games are shit and people shouldn't buy them.

I was just trying to tell you that by ripping them the only message you make is that DRM needs to be more restrictive. I know that isn't what you feel your saying, but that's how the people with the wallets hear it. That ultimately all your doing was encouraging DRM and giving them reason to use DRM. The very thing your saying makes you not want to buy.

Its a vicious cycle but the power is in the consumers hands, by not downloading we take away said excuse. If games really do suck and they lose both Downloading and peoples dollars maybe things will change. However in the end whether you download it or buy it it makes no difference to them. Both avenues lead to them saying "People like our games" however downloading just adds ",but we need more restricting DRM."

In the end I am not telling you to stop, because i couldn't give two shits if you never buy a game again or suddenly start buying everything. I'm just telling you that what your doing does have consequences, and that you shouldn't complain when the consequences of your actions bite your ass.

I wish we could live in a world where people could be trusted to buy every game they genuinely like. However more often then not people seem to raise there expectations as high as they can, just so they justify not buying the game in the end.

I've had people tell me they downloaded a game, beat it after spending 30 hours playing it thoroughly, then say "I'm not going to buy it because there's no replay value".

But what about the 20-30 hours you already got enjoyment out of? Someone surely should be entitled to money for that. I find this happens more and more often to people who talk to me about it.

I see people raising there expectations demanding more, but there not willing to put up the cash to support it. Vote with your wallets as they say. People don't seem to understand that voting with your wallets means not coming in contact with the game at all if you don't like it, and buying every game you enjoy, even if its short.

I gotta go sign up for fall classes. If you make a reply I'll get back to you when I get home.

Edit: Once again, most of that isn't targeted at you, I seem to be venting at the moment, excuse me.

 

[wraithian]

Kagim summed up most of my thoughts on the piracy issue. Though, there's one more thing that hasn't been addressed, and it's another argument I hear a lot (I'm in the IT field, and hear a lot of bullshit for and against piracy). It has been mentioned, but another facet of it hasn't been addressed.

"Fuck the industry, man! They're controlling us all! They put out bullshit games that no one wants, the industry is failing us all, man!" I'm going to call bullshit on this one. If you go out and look at the numbers (and this isn't directed at any user here--just addressing another facet of the issue I've heard), honestly invest the time and go out and do some independent research instead of parroting what others say, vid gaming is more popular, more mainstream, than it *ever* has been before. So, even though you may feel that you are entitled to your free shit because the devs/pubs are producing shit product, I'd like to quickly point out that they must be doing something right--the numbers don't lie.

And for those who justify piracy... Just accept it for what it is. Stop making excuses. Stop trying to justify why it's okay to do so. I don't care what you do, honestly, but don't throw a bullshit screen out there by trying to call it something it isn't--you are still using a product, even a *copy* of a product, that you didn't pay for. While it may be classified as copyright infringement, I think most rational people can agree that, in spirit at the very least, it is a form of theft.