I'm a fairly conservative guy, but I am still flabergasted by people who think gay is a choice

[Sinclair Solutions]

Well according to the Catholic Church, homosexuality is a choice. They realize that people can be born gay, or become gay due to their environment, but they hold that the practice of homosexual acts (something that a person CHOOSES to do) is still a sin. So a person can be gay, but not do any homosexual acts, and still get into heaven.

I personally thing this is ridiculous, since they are repressing people's expression of their identity, but this is what the Church thinks.

 

[Rainboq]

-snip-
I bring this up because my girlfriend just told me she is in a debate with a work friend who still thinks it is a choice.-snip-

Here's your problem, in Western society, its far easier for women to be open about their sexuality because being bi or homosexual makes them more masculine, and therefor its more acceptable.

So for women, its easier for it to be a choice than it is for men.

The work friend who thinks it is a choice is a dude. She does not think it is a choice.

Well, here's the question, was he speaking about Lesbians but simply generalized his statement?

There is lots, and I mean lots, of films and porn that contain straight females "turning" Bi or Lesbian, this more than likely cultivated his perception to what it is.

I think he was thinking about gay men.

I don't completely know.

Why not ask him?

 

[AtmaPhil]

I guess the social environment does make sense. If we're all born bisexual and it is then influenced.
If you just look at ancient greece, vast majority of the population was gay or bisexual back then. The society was not just extremely open about it but it was the normal way of things. I guess it just depends on what kind of society you live in and how rebelious you are (if you live somewhere where its concidered evil and might get you killed).

I have trouble believing that being gay is a biological thing. If it was wouldn't that gene be gone by now ? since you know they're not going to have childs. I was under the impression that it was the result of a social context/choice of the person.

From what I heard it can be biological and have an impact from the environment. Also look up recessive genes (I'm not trying to sound condescending when I say that it's just I do not have the will to explain it right now).

I know what they are but the chance of this recessive gene being passed on and on through all of human history without ever being wiped out is a stretch. (since unlike blue eyes and such it does lead you to not passing on your genes).

 

[2fish]

Has this been left in this thread yet:

Darn you Ninja!

I love that video watch them say something then backpedal as fast as they can.

You are born with sexual preferance in you already. Your lifestyle is your choice, not your sexuality.

Even if we find some mediacl thing that "causes people to be gay" I would say leave it be. Work on equal rights not finding the cause. The body is a odd little thing, who knows what one change could cause?

OT

US Got rid of don't ask don't tell!

 

[senorfatso]

Has this been left in this thread yet:

I'd like to point out that choosing to be gay is not the opposite to being born gay, as I thought it was for a long time. My girlfriend, who knows a lot more about psychology than I do, talked about this once, showed me many examples of irreversible changes to an individual's psyche that occurred from childhood or through puberty, that may have not been a rational choice, but was determined by environmental factors.

That does not, however make the post of your video any less meaningful. The point is homosexuality is not an exercise of free will and therefore cannot not be talked of in terms of 'sin'.

 

[BioHazardMan]

For all who are wondering about why the debate is a big deal, it's that religious elitists say gays are choosing to be gay to justify their "sin" as evil. It is not a bad thing, and if you can't use logic, bludgeon them with a holy book!

 

[DudeistBelieve]

You like what you like, certainly true. But one does make the choice to persue one lifestyle or the other. Weather being gay and choosing a straight life style makes them unhappy is really an entirely unrelated matter.

But certainly it's like saying you choose to like pizza. No one chooses to like pizza, they just do!

 

[CoverYourHead]

As far as I know, there has been research that has indicated that there is... something... in the brain that triggers it, I can't remember at the moment, but I'm fairly sure I read it somewhere.

[citation needed].

"It would appear that sexual orientation is biological in nature, determined by a complex interplay of genetic factors and the early uterine environment. Sexual orientation is therefore not a choice." -Royal College of Psychiatrists, 2007.

Cited!

Anyway, I'm bisexual, so I suppose I have a choice, that said, for people who are strictly gay or straight, it is not a choice. There's no debate about this, it's stupid to assume that -the entire gay community- is lying about it being a choice. Not to mention, it would be the same level of "choice" for a straight person to go through life with only homosexual partners.

As for people who think it's a choice, they're stupid.

some are just Uneducated...

Fair enough. I guess I was thinking more, the people who have heard the arguments and evidence about it not being a choice, yet continue to insist it is a choice.

 

[bdcjacko]

-snip-
I bring this up because my girlfriend just told me she is in a debate with a work friend who still thinks it is a choice.-snip-

Here's your problem, in Western society, its far easier for women to be open about their sexuality because being bi or homosexual makes them more masculine, and therefor its more acceptable.

So for women, its easier for it to be a choice than it is for men.

The work friend who thinks it is a choice is a dude. She does not think it is a choice.

Well, here's the question, was he speaking about Lesbians but simply generalized his statement?

There is lots, and I mean lots, of films and porn that contain straight females "turning" Bi or Lesbian, this more than likely cultivated his perception to what it is.

I think he was thinking about gay men.

I don't completely know.

Why not ask him?

Cause I don't work with him, and I don't care.

 

[Valksy]

The point is homosexuality is not an exercise of free will and therefore cannot not be talked of in terms of 'sin'.

OK. But we do have the free will whether to act on it, whether to live an authentic life or not. And this can take time for people - Hell, I have known and been friends with for years women who married men and had kids and then eventually came out. They didn't become gay, they didn't choose overnight to be gay, they chose to stop suppressing their own personal truth.

Oh and I would also argue that those who want to use terms like "sin" may do so, but should not expect those of us who do not subscribe to their faith to agree, care or be subject to laws driven by "sin".

When I was coming to terms with myself many many years ago, the notion of being "sinful" was never in my head. I am happy that I didn't have to deal with that, it is a difficult enough journey to take.

 

[senorfatso]

OK. But we do have the free will whether to act on it, whether to live an authentic life or not. And this can take time for people - Hell, I have known and been friends with for years women who married men and had kids and then eventually came out. They didn't become gay, they didn't choose overnight to be gay, they chose to stop suppressing their own personal truth.

Oh and I would also argue that those who want to use terms like "sin" may do so, but should not expect those of us who do not subscribe to their faith to agree, care or be subject to laws driven by "sin".

When I was coming to terms with myself many many years ago, the notion of being "sinful" was never in my head. I am happy that I didn't have to deal with that, it is a difficult enough journey to take.

I agree, I use 'sin' as the predominant problem because, as you say, the aspect of religion can make an individual's struggle with identity harder than, I believe, any other construct of society, which is why universal tolerance of the issue is required in order to ease self-discovery.

 

[Sporky111]

Your sexuality isn't a choice, but being gay is a choice...for bisexual people.

I assume.

Bisexuality is the same deal as being gay or straight. Rather than being attracted to one or the other, you're attracted to both. I don't see why that's such a difficult concept to grasp.

To everyone who's questioning if it's a choice:

When did you decide to be straight?

This is my favorite counter-argument, and it's just so perfect in it's simplicity. It's like when someone asks "How do you know you're gay?" one can return with "Well, how do you know you're straight?"

And on topic, I think that there is some element of choice but that you don't choose your sexuality. Realizing your sexuality is often a life-changing, sometimes terrifying experience. And coming out about it makes you a target for hatred, prejudice, and the ignorance of plenty. It's not something anyone would choose to do, it's something that you just know. And trying to say "well, you could choose not to be gay" doesn't really work. It has been proven that repression of sexuality by things like "Gay Camp" cause serious psychological damage. Really, it's just the same that you'd expect to happen if you took a bunch of straight people and started to try and 'turn' them gay. You wouldn't expect good things, would you?

 

[Slimshad]

Think of it this way: If you were afraid of something, like flying, did you choose to be afraid of flying? The answer is most readily 'no', because very few people want to be afraid of something.

Sexuality, like fear, is a hardwired response in our brains to outside conditions. People are usually born with a fear of heights. However, say that you were born without a fear of heights, and later in life you actually want to become an airplane pilot. You made a choice to become an airline pilot, but you did not make a choice to be unafraid of heights.

What I am getting at here is that the active thought of attraction to a member of the same gender will always still be there, whether you choose to be that 'airplane pilot' or not.

You cannot make a gay man straight, just as you cannot stop a bird from wanting to fly. You can imprison that bird in a cage, you can cut off its wings, but you cannot stop it from yearning to fly.

 

[Canadamus Prime]

I think the point is irrelevant. If consenting adults want to engage in activities or live a lifestyle that causes no undue harm to themselves or others, they should be free to do so. Whether they feel they are born that way, or are just experimenting, or are freely choosing to do it, it doesn't matter.

Basically this. As long as they're not harming themselves or others, what difference does it make whether it's a choice or not?

 

[zega frega omega]

It is a choice to some extent, I believe; I think its rare to see a case of "hey, I haven't had much luck with women, so I'll try and do men instead," but at the same time, I don't think its always a case of being 100% gay, but the ever-present human bisexuality that just happens to lean a bit toward homosexuality. But hey, I haven't read any Erik Erikson's psyche studies, so what do I know?

 

[Erecting a Sentry]

It's still not proven why some people are gay (I don't think); any theory could be correct.

I think it's messed up instincts or suhin like that