I'm a fairly conservative guy, but I am still flabergasted by people who think gay is a choice

[Sikachu]

I have had a few friends that are gay or transgendered or both and had talks with them about the human condition and such. And so I convinced gay is not a choice.

I bring this up because my girlfriend just told me she is in a debate with a work friend who still thinks it is a choice. How could it be a choice? I mean logically being gay doesn't make sense. I mean on the down side you are degraded, belittled, and repressed by society. You are stigmatized and grudgingly accepted in most place that don't specifically cater to homosexuals. None of that sounds fun, but on the other down side you can take it in the butt and not get married.

The only real plus side I can see is that you can dress how ever you want, and if someone says you look gay, you can reply, "I know, isn't it great?"

Anyhow, what are your feelings on this?

Logically being gay makes much more sense. More disposable income, twice the sex drive in any relationships, better clothes, a release from the ridiculous drinking culture where manliness is measured in ability to turn into a pig on beer. And you can still choose to get kids if you want to ruin all that.
That said, there's really no strong basis to make the conclusion that sexuality is inherent. Certainly sexuality has been demonstrated to be very fluid in women, tending to waver until eventually settling for the long run. You've presented no more than 'my friends who are gay said it isn't a choice' as an argument, and while I'm perfectly open to the idea that sexuality may be programmed in the genes, it would be a little premature to assume it is the case just because I'm not aware that I made a choice. Basically what I'm saying is that the scientific jury is still out on this one, so don't be stupid and plump for a hypothesis to believe.

Oh yeah, and some people definitely choose their 'sexuality'. Some do it to attract attention because they don't get enough hugs (or too many), others do it because they think there's something wrong with how they actually feel so they overcompensate in the other direction (and those are just people I've met).

 

[Sikachu]

Homosexuality is not a choice. If you think it is, you're an idiot. Sorry.

Come on then genius, show me the evidence to back up this oh-so-obvious conclusion. If you can't produce it, stop being such a smug **** and participate in the debate.

 

[Wingmna]

I have had a few friends that are gay or transgendered or both and had talks with them about the human condition and such. And so I convinced gay is not a choice.

I bring this up because my girlfriend just told me she is in a debate with a work friend who still thinks it is a choice. How could it be a choice? I mean logically being gay doesn't make sense. I mean on the down side you are degraded, belittled, and repressed by society. You are stigmatized and grudgingly accepted in most place that don't specifically cater to homosexuals. None of that sounds fun, but on the other down side you can take it in the butt and not get married.

The only real plus side I can see is that you can dress how ever you want, and if someone says you look gay, you can reply, "I know, isn't it great?"

Anyhow, what are your feelings on this?

You're not conservative.

I choose to be heterosexual or to be in a sexual relationship. I choose to have sex when I want and who I want.

Alas, than is it not a choice to be homosexual?

Not saying certain people aren't inclined to have certain relationships just like some people are more horny than others (based on a whole matter of issues that may be affecting a person, upbringing, etc). That however does not mean that one cannot choose to ignore those factors, no one is forcing anything on anyone.



It is a choice, that is fact pure and simple. Whether or not you think that choice is correct or not is the issue. People use 'choice' factor to ignore the argument altogether. Obviously they are not proud of themselves if they think they are forced into a certain lifestyle. How about people accept who they are and the choices they have made? Their consciences are bugging them if they cannot accept and must make 'choice' excuses.

Either way, so far there is no proof at all for a gay gene. The only real minor factor in terms of biology that may affect a persons sexuality has (from what I have heard) to do with MALES (and only males) receiving certain chemicals while within their mother.

Personally, I don't think that is an excuse. I believe someone is always in control of their 'destinies' no matter whether or not they are more inclinded one way.

 

[MoganFreeman]

What I find annoying is when people say "It's Unnatural" like it's a bad thing.

I'd kind of agree with them in that it's not natural - it doesn't take a medical degree to figure out penises are meant to go in vaginas. But there is nothing wrong with something being unnatural. I bet if you were to look around the room you're in right now, you'd struggle to call even 10% of it "natural".

\

Homosexual behavior is well documented in the animal kingdom, and in the same proportions too...I'd say that's about as natural as you get.

 

[PixelKing]

Gay is what you want to be.

I don't care if someones gay thats what they want to do.

You as a person are unique so your sexuality makes you more unique.

 

[Valksy]

[

Nature doesn't make people gay. Its not genetic, its nurture.
.

And thus, you demonstrate that you do not have a clue what you are talking about.

Same-sex attraction exists in nature.

Let me say this again. If you are NOT GLBTQ then you do not know what you are fucking talking about.

 

[warm slurm]

Come on then genius, show me the evidence to back up this oh-so-obvious conclusion. If you can't produce it, stop being such a smug **** and participate in the debate.

lol You don't need evidence. Ask 1000 gay people and I bet none of them will say that they chose to be gay. Do you really think that gay people would commit suicide because they're gay if they could just simply change their sexuality? No. Don't you think the gay people who're mocked and abused and attacked would just "choose" to be straight instead if they could?

 

[Something Amyss]

The 3 best presidents we ever had are Harry S Truman, Ronald Reagan, and George W. Bush. I'm pro gun, pro death penalty and a hawk, also I'm fiscally conservative, hate what Obama has done with the country, blame the democrats for everything, and still think USA is #1. I'm just more open minded and will actually listen to other people's argument. Shows what kind of friend you are.

Friend enough to know about half of that was false.

Not much I can do but restate what I've already said. Being humans, our minds are hard-wired to want to procreate. If you're attracted to the same sex, then it is by your own choice.

I don't see how that is baseless (the base for my statement being right there, for all to see) or an assumption, because no assuming was involved.

I never said that I knew better than you, but thanks for jumping the over-sensetive gun. Yea, you do know more about your sexual orientation than me... Because you've chosen it.

Please don't be mad at me though, I don't really care which gender you've chosen to pursue.

Wanting kids and being homosexual are not mutually exclusive "wiring" options. Therefore, any derivation of "homosexuality is a choice because humans are hardwired for kids" is baseless. Sorry.

Further, there are people (and animals) born without that drive, regardless of sexuality. You might as well be saying "people are right handed." While technically true ruling by the majority, it's not accurate.

And yes, you're pretending to know more about his sexuality by presuming he made a choice. Again, sorry.

 

[Sikachu]

Come on then genius, show me the evidence to back up this oh-so-obvious conclusion. If you can't produce it, stop being such a smug **** and participate in the debate.

lol You don't need evidence. Ask 1000 gay people and I bet none of them will say that they chose to be gay. Do you really think that gay people would commit suicide because they're gay if they could just simply change their sexuality? No. Don't you think the gay people who're mocked and abused and attacked would just "choose" to be straight instead if they could?

LOL at what I've highlighted. No point debating with someone who doesn't need evidence.

 

[warm slurm]

LOL at what I've highlighted. No point debating with someone who doesn't need evidence.

LOL at you being straight and acting like you know about being gay.

 

[Valksy]

LOL at what I've highlighted. No point debating with someone who doesn't need evidence.

LOL at you being straight and acting like you know about being gay.

I do agree. I honestly see threads like this as giving a very interesting insight in to how non-GLBTQ people perceive us. But in terms of bringing "evidence" or "arguments" to the table, I consider it completely meaningless. GLBTQ people know their own truth, people who identify as heterosexual really don't and I am not sure whether to be amused or insulted that they think that they know better.

Given that some of the statements made me laugh out loud - I'm going to go with amused. In fact, I've been snickering at this thread for a while now, and every other thread like it. Thing is, there will be another one just like it in a few of days - Those hetero people just can't seem to get over their fascination with us...

 

[Kukakkau]

There's a difference between choosing to be gay and choosing to do gay things.

Eating that pizza or not is a choice. But whether you like it or not isn't. Is it that hard?

Right so people know they are gay without doing gay things? How do you know if you like something without first trying it?

Are you really saying that because your mind might give an attraction to men that is grounds to set out a life path without having to think about it or consider it at all because you have no say in it?

Cause last I checked theres a lot of cases of guys who have had girlfriends, didn't like it and then decided maybe girls were the wrong choice.

And "is it that hard?"... really? That's what you say to someone stating their opinion?

 

[Valksy]

There's a difference between choosing to be gay and choosing to do gay things.

Eating that pizza or not is a choice. But whether you like it or not isn't. Is it that hard?

Right so people know they are gay without doing gay things? ?

What do you mean by "gay things?"

And the guys you are describing are probably bisexual.

 

[Continuity]

Yeah its obviously not a choice what your sexual desires are, though you have choice about your actions... so I guess this is a semantics question. Does having gay sex make you gay or does having gay desires make you gay? can a straight guy have gay sex and still be straight? Can someone who has gay desires but never has gay sex be called gay?

Personally I think its about desires and not actions, though of course without the desire you're not likely to commit the action, so there is apparent correlation between action and sexuality but its indirect.

As to why some people have gay desires and some don't... I don't know, I don't even know if there is a medical consensus on that. However there is obviously some biological mechanism for setting sexuality and one presumes that in homosexuals this mechanism has malfunctioned in some way.

 

[dumbledoresarmy101]

It IS a choice. Humans are attracted to the opposite sex by instinct. Any deviation IS a choice.

I have nothing against gays, but their sexual orientation is voluntary.

Thank you for your completely groundless assumption.

Hi. I'm a homosexual. I did not choose this.

Please do tell me again how you know better than me, I am riveted.

Not much I can do but restate what I've already said. Being humans, our minds are hard-wired to want to procreate. If you're attracted to the same sex, then it is by your own choice.

I don't see how that is baseless (the base for my statement being right there, for all to see) or an assumption, because no assuming was involved.

I never said that I knew better than you, but thanks for jumping the over-sensetive gun. Yea, you do know more about your sexual orientation than me... Because you've chosen it.

Please don't be mad at me though, I don't really care which gender you've chosen to pursue.

I'm sorry, but this argument is COMPLETELY... for lack of a better word, stupid.
First of all, he's homosexual. I think he'd know whether he chose it or not, it's his body, his mind, not yours.
Secondly, we have a SEXUAL DRIVE, not a want to procreate. If every human wanted to procreate, and that was the only reason to have sex, how do you explain casual sex? Or people who have NEVER wanted children, they still want sex. Being homosexual is a sexual drive toward the same sex. Just like people can have a sexual drive toward animals, and in very rare cases to objects, do you believe all of them chose it too? As I stated before, try and choose to be gay, see how it works out for you, just as a test. And I'm sure you'll say something like "the choice has to be made over a long period of time and/or sub-consiously"
If it was made over time, you have to think about it. Sexual drive starts when a human hits puberty, for a male lets say 10-11 years old. Not much time to "decide" to be gay, seeing as most people have attraction to the same sex in their teen years. Secondly the sub-consiously, IF you believe they make it without knowing, prove it.
And if you believe they just "decided" to be gay one day, why wouldn't they change their mind back when they get hated, and are lonley?

I know hes a homosexual, he told me. And I already said that he knows more about his sexual orientation than I ever could. I would be a fucking lunatic if I said otherwise.

I'm sorry, my words were poorly chosen. People don't just have sex for the sole purpose of having babies. But our sex drives are there for a reason, that reason being the survival of the human race. We are, by default, attracted to the opposite sex for this reason. But not everybody pursues a sexual conquest just to create a little bundle of joy.

And people's tendencies towards the same gender, animals, and objects are fetishes, being voluntary.

And if I wanted to, I could totally be gay, because its a choice.

As for gays not caving under scrutiny, (some do) if they chose to be gay, then they probably like it, and want to continue their romantic interest in the same sex. Thats my best guess anyways.

But lets please try to keep this civil. As I've said many a time now, I am not hating on gays. I could easily say that your argument is "stupid" too, but I'm trying to take all things into consideration, as should you.

I'm sorry, I probably could be more civil, but it's moronic arguments like this that make gays hated. People believe they just choose to be different, and people are scared of things that are different, and lash out at that. If people just accepted that they didn't choose it anymore then I chose that my eyes are blue, it would be easier to accept.
First of all, fetishes aren't chosen, fetishes are a inward sexual desire that we cannot control. For example, I have a fetish for asses and legs. I couldn't suddenly say "I'm bored with those, I'm going to have a fetish for pencil sharpeners now" and have it be true. I could try, but I'd be lying to myself.
Toward your comment of people liking the scrutiny, I can provide a personal example. A close friend of mine was suicidal for a long time over homosexuality. He tried being with women in order to "fight" the homosexuality, but he couldn't do it. He was utterly repulsed by the idea of being sexually involved with a woman. So he told people he was gay and regretted it for a long time. He got hate mail, people harassed him at school, he got beat up etc. It was only when he almost killed himself, that he realized he needed to stop caring what others thought. It took him awhile, but now he doesn't care that others hate him for it. But he does not get any enjoyment out of it. Too this day he still wishes he could be straight, so he doesn't have to deal with everyone, but he can't do that anymore than I can grow an extra limb.

Yay, my opinions have gone from stupid to moronic! This civility thing must not have taken hold yet.

Well since thats already out the window... I think its a fucking generalization to say that "the big bad straights are afraid of us sexual wave-makers!"

And I did not say that they must have enjoyed the scrutiny, I was talking about being gay. If they chose it, then they must enjoy it, and want to continue to be gay, was what I was trying to convey.

Thanks for sharing that incredible story of self-realization, but it holds no credibility with me. A man can talk himself into just about anything, including that his homosexuality is not a choice. I'm sure he believes that it isn't.

I never said all people who are straight are afraid of gays, but you know it is a generalization, difference is this generalization is mostly correct. People who are straight are scared of and uncomfortable around people who are gay quite often. Even if they aren't outward homophobes, a lot are uncomfortable around them and bully them through exclusion. So go ahead and yell "GENERALIZATION!" all you want, it's true.
Hey, sorry I aint a civil guy, live with it.
I'm kinda liking that I'll bring up an argument and you completely ignore, why don't you give me something to throw back at you huh? Or is it you know I'm right?
And I think it's redundant to say they enjoy being gay. Obviously they enjoy the sexual act of being with the same sex, so why mention it?
AND if it IS a choice, they would be repulsed by it. If what you are saying it's true, that it's human nature to be attracted to the same sex and that every human is, their very nature would fight their homosexuality, and they would find the act of homosexuality repulsive. It's like fighting the human nature to drink or eat. My body will eventually rebel, which would also happen to homosexuals if it was our nature.

 

[dumbledoresarmy101]

You're not conservative.

I choose to be heterosexual or to be in a sexual relationship. I choose to have sex when I want and who I want.

Alas, than is it not a choice to be homosexual?

Not saying certain people aren't inclined to have certain relationships just like some people are more horny than others (based on a whole matter of issues that may be affecting a person, upbringing, etc). That however does not mean that one cannot choose to ignore those factors, no one is forcing anything on anyone.



It is a choice, that is fact pure and simple. Whether or not you think that choice is correct or not is the issue. People use 'choice' factor to ignore the argument altogether. Obviously they are not proud of themselves if they think they are forced into a certain lifestyle. How about people accept who they are and the choices they have made? Their consciences are bugging them if they cannot accept and must make 'choice' excuses.

Either way, so far there is no proof at all for a gay gene. The only real minor factor in terms of biology that may affect a persons sexuality has (from what I have heard) to do with MALES (and only males) receiving certain chemicals while within their mother.

Personally, I don't think that is an excuse. I believe someone is always in control of their 'destinies' no matter whether or not they are more inclinded one way.

This is the only reasonable argument on this forum towards homosexuality being a choice.
But I think there's some digging to do.
Is it the act of homosexual behaviour that makes you gay, or is it the homosexual sexual drive that makes you gay?
Personally I believe the second option is true, but it all depends how you look at it.
If I went and had sex with the same sex right now, does that make me gay?
I have no sexual drive toward other men, but if I fought that and tried homosexual behaviour once, even if I found it not to my liking, am I gay/bi? What if I continued with it? I have no sexual attraction toward males, and am only attracted toward females, but I choose to spend my life sexually with men. Does this make me gay, or am I just "pretending"?
I think you're right in the fact that choosing to act on/accept your homosexuality is a choicee, but I think you're missing the bigger picture. In my mind were looking at whether your personal sexual drive, be it straight, bi, gay, a-sexual, whatever is a choice or not, not whether you act on it.

 

[dumbledoresarmy101]

There's a difference between choosing to be gay and choosing to do gay things.

Eating that pizza or not is a choice. But whether you like it or not isn't. Is it that hard?

Right so people know they are gay without doing gay things? How do you know if you like something without first trying it??

Actually, I think it's pretty easy.
I knew my whole life I liked women. I had my first kiss this year, and am still a virgin.
For the longest time I didn't do "straight things" but I still knew I was sexually attracted to women. And I'm sure this is the case in nearly everyone

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

Same-sex attraction exists in nature.

Does it ever. Bats, dolphins, several species of primate (not including bonobos because that'd be cheating), sheep, emus, etc, etc, et-fucking-cetera.

And that's not counting species that have dominance behaviours that could be misidentified as same-sex attraction (such as dogs... and yes, before someone points out that same-sex attraction also occurs in dogs, I know that but when it comes to a male dog nailing another male dog up the pooper it is most often a dominance display rather than same-sex attraction).

Interestingly, the incidence of same-sex attraction in sheep is high enough that the CSIRO (aussie govt science mob) are getting shit tons of cash to look into it all, identify involved factors and, if possible, elimate or rectify those factors. They're already working on gene-screening for rams that have a gene that appears to give a high level of genetic predisposition towards homosexuality. One of the scientists on the project was interviewed and asked if the same sort of thing could be done for humans one day and refused to answer the question, citing doing it for sheep was an economic question for both the wool and meat industries, homosexual stud rams being a bad investment for obvious reasons, whereas those factors don't apply to humans.

Animals have also been useful for indicating that there is some biochemical basis for or factors to same-sex attraction as chemical pollution of habitats has sometimes caused a spike in the incidence of same-sex coupling in effected species. Seabirds in particular appear sensitive to this.

 

[RhombusHatesYou]

What do you mean by "gay things?"

You know... things that are or contain the ghey.

 

[Burningsok]

it's really a choice. There is more then one reason one some people are homosexuals, but each reason is something that you wouldn't consider a choice. Sometimes it's genetics, other times it's an event at a very young age that completely changes you.