I'm a vegan and I come in peace...

[Lunar Templar]

i own a leather jacket, 2 in fact, i love beef, and fish and meat as a general rule.

that said, i've no problem with some one wanting to protect animals, even the ones I'm going to be eating. just because animals are a "lesser being" dose not mean they should be abused or put through unnecessary torment.

 

[geK0]

We raise them, feed them, and protect them from predators.... then eat them.

seems like a fair enough trade-off.

 

[AstylahAthrys]

I need meat to live. I have blood deficiencies that make it mandatory that meats are part of my diet, mainly because of my low iron. Were I to become a vegetarian or vegan, I'd become a frail, weak and sickly. No, iron supplements aren't always enough. Sometimes I just need a goddamn steak to feel better! Tell you what. Humans are animals. When every other species of animal stops eating meat, I will as well, because that would mean we are more primitive than animals. We're designed to eat meat, so that's what we gotta do. No sense denying biology.

Also, this:

Good luck with that vegan thing now.

 

[The Unworthy Gentleman]

So why do we think it's okay to deprive an entire species of their liberty and kill them for their flesh?

To sum it up: Just because we *can* eat anything, doesn't necessarily mean that we *should*.

Actually a healthy diet for omnivores contains everything, it isn't exactly a choice you should be making. Sure, now we have substitutes for all those important nutrients you're missing and know where to find them, but try being a vegan without technology and you'll find yourself dead fairly soon. I don't see why I should live a life of frugality and go against my nature over some false sense of morality, I'd far rather live indulgently.

I also find vegans who ask questions particularly smug about their diet. It comes across as if you're asking us why we haven't chosen to become better people, you even say that your diet is the more moral than mine, I shouldn't have to deal with that when I'm just eating what I should be in the first place.

 

[Rainforce]

Great, another humanity hater.

yep, pretty much XD

Animals cannot reason at all.

I never said you could reason with them, just that they behave reasonable, which are completely different things. (you cannot interact via complex language with them, because they don't have any)

They have no real language, no culture, no emotions like love or hate

they have at least fear, as far as we can tell. it would be nice if you could acknowledge at least that.

, no intellectual capacity, etc. which makes them inferior to humans. This is apparent through the fact that humans are the dominating species on this planet (Although it has to be said that there are more chickens on this planet than humans, funny huh?). The most dangerous predator to roam this chunk of rock and the only species who improves itself over time, without help of evolution.

uh...we just dragged evolution to another level, it's still there : /
we are still fighting to be the strongest in society, are we not?
we improve over time so that we can be better than others.
that's called evolution. it's now just on the level of society.

also our bodies adapt to our needs over the generations, so we get taller, etc.

Animals are ALWAYS true neutral alignment-wise. Humans differ from individual to individual.

I'm not even starting to argue against the term "alignment", which is as far away from reality as can be.

Is Humanity evil? No, you can't say they are. Because the actions of a few members of a certain species does not reflect on the species as a whole. There are plenty of wonderful people out there in the world achieving good things that no animal ever could.

I know. I like a lot of people out there. But it doesn't stop us from being ignorant.

so that's my 2 cents on your opinion.

EDIT: edited a few typos/bad choices of words
EDIT2: also, as I said, I can and probably will continue to kill/eat other animals, as they can do the same to me.

 

[walrusaurus]

research suggests that Cockroaches may be self aware.

food for thought,

or food with thoughts, as it were.

 

[deus-ex-machina]

Never really understood veganism beyond the idea that people just don't want to hurt animals. Logically, I still think this is flawed. Animals will hurt you if they need to. They will probably attack you or eat you if they need to. The essential idea is that of need and vegans do not need to object to all animal produce.

I recently met a vegan who also avoided fungi because it wasn't technically a plant or animal and they couldn't decide whether it was 'viable' for their diet, although it lacks a conscience and no nerve system. It also meant they wouldn't eat Quorn as it's a by product. I haven't spoken to them recently, but I can't imagine they're doing too well.

But what I also can't understand about vegans is that it would not be possible to have been vegan in history. Knowledge of diet or variety was not sufficient enough in most places to survive well without farming or meat eating. The development of medicine and many products would not have been available due to an animal source - still gelatin is commonly used in medicines and is sourced from animals. As a pharmacist, I'm constantly asked by vegetarians for the source of medicine, but while I understand the reasoning on a religious basis where beef is sacred and pork is unclean - if you cannot taste the animal, why would you protest? I can understand the belief that taking in such a thing would risk your soul if you're religious, but I still struggle sometimes to understand how some people will refuse life saving medication - which has already been produced and will continue to be produced, ergo it doesn't matter what your stance on animal cruelty is - just because it came from an animal.

My partner is vegetarian - she doesn't like the texture or taste of meat. She doesn't like the idea that a creature is slain for a meal. But she will eat eggs, drink milk and essentially her 'Western' diet relies on that difference between vegetarianism and veganism. I can understand that. I can also understand that she might avoid jelly or a milkshake because in some bizarre way, she can just see animal fat floating around in it. But she would take something that would ease pain or save her life. Vegetarians have only ever come across as rational to me, where as vegans seem quite silly for having such staunch beliefs.

But when cows form a union and refuse to be milked I will reconsider my stance. We have bred these animals and yes, unfortunately they're born to die, but at least they're given a life. My only qualm with this generation - which I am also guilty of - is that compared to my great-grandmothers generation which was pre-WW2, we only eat the meat of the animal. I know some countries still revel in the offal of animals, but a lot of the creature is wasted. I watched in disgust as my great-grandmother tucked into tripe. I was also disgusted at how big an ox tongue is, but it's edible. I think the only thing people who eat meat need to feel 'guilty' about is how much of a carcass goes to waste, considering how many people are still dying of starvation in the world.

 

[Deepzound]

Firstly, as a raw-vegan living primarily on a fruit based diet, my only concern in regards to other people and their nutritional intake is this, know the facts, and never ever EVER make a decision out of ignorance, especially if you have the opportunity to educate yourself as to the consequence of your actions.

If you know all the facts about; a) How the meat on your plate came there, and the practices that went into bringing it there [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys], b) The health impacts of eating said meat, and all the diseases and deficiencies associated with a meat based diet [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study_(book)], and c) Know the impact of eating meat ON THE WORLD [http://www.care2.com/greenliving/meat-and-the-environment.html], in regards to Co2, water usage, land clearing, using 16 pounds of grain to make 1 pound of meat (Bonus info, 70 % of all grains and antibiotics go to feed livestock), etc., and then decide to eat meat, I am fine with it. I am not fine with people living in a self-maintained oblivious torpor, scared to wake up and find out what reality is like.

Watch EARTHLINGS [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys], and find out about all aspects of the use and abuse of animals today - I dare ANY meat eater to man the fuck up and learn the truth about all parts of the animal farming industry, and then after knowing the truth choosing what to eat - Don't live in ignorance, make choices based on facts.

try to feed 7 billion people with only Vegan approved food, than come talk to us

Ehh, try to feed the world on a pure meat based diet - Even a partial meat based diet isn't cutting it, as presently a BILION people are starving every single day (that's one in seven people, think about it). Plus using simple maths, and knowing that it takes 16 pounds of grain to make 1 pound of meat, you'd realize it's actually much more realistic to feed the world if everyone were vegan.

I have to say that the amount of misinformation in this thread borders on the ludicrous. We are not designed to eat meat, and in fact get sick from eating animal products in general [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_China_Study_(book)]. The healthiest diet is the vegan diet, and before you bring up any "deficiencies" on a vegan diet (B12, Omega 3, protein, calcium, etc.), watch this [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMdFqutyP_U&feature=feedu].

Regarding ethics, I love when non-vegans try to diminish the fact that vegans try to minimize suffering in the world. Key word here, MINIMIZE - Even though the death and suffering of other beings can't at present be completely prevented, mocking people who do try to minimize the amount of death and suffering in the world simply makes you look like a jerk.

To sum up - I have nothing against my fellow humans, regardless of whether they eat meat and dairy or not, but I am vehemently against making ignorant choices, so do yourself a favor and wake up, find out what you are eating [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys].

And lastly some quotes for all you people saying we as humans are "just animals".

"The love for all living creatures is the most noble attribute of man."
Charles Darwin


"I am in favour of animal rights as well as human rights. That is the way of a
whole human being."
Abraham Lincoln

"Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages."
Thomas Edison


"Until he extends the circle of compassion to all living
things, man will not himself find peace."
Albert Schweitzer


"We can judge the heart of a man by his treatment of animals."
Immanual Kant

And lastly, to the supporters of vivisection [http://www.hansruesch.net/articoli/1000_Docs_4.htm]:

"I abhor vivisection'. I know of no achievement through vivisection, no scientific discovery that could not have been obtained without such barbarism and cruelty."
-- Charles W. Mayo, MD (1961), son of the co-founder of the Mayo Clinic. Dr. Charles W. Mayo (1898 ' 1968) was a skilled surgeon and a member of the Mayo Clinic's Board of Governors. The Mayo Clinic is consistently ranked among the top three U.S. hospitals. (click for more [http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Saints/Authors/Quotes/antivivquotes.htm])

And because it can't be said enough, WATCH EARTHLINGS [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys], ~ "We must not refuse with our eyes, what they must endure with their bodies".

 

[Rainforce]

But when cows form a union and refuse to be milked I will reconsider my stance.

I totally agree with everything you say, although I think the milking part isn't a problem for cows (I think it isn't painful or anything), more the probably insanely annoying(for them) fact that they're forced to stay in one place, etc.

(wall of text)

you really don't need to quote that many people, your opinion on the matter is enough.
It doesn't get better with the desperate attempt to try to prove ones own subjective perspective with others subjective perspective. That doesn't make it any more true.
(although I generally agree with your opinion, you sound way too desperate)

 

[Rainforce]

EDIT: double post, sorry.

 

[Cadmium Magenta]

No. No, goddamnit, stop that. You're putting morality on a higher pedestal than intelligence is. Get one thing straight. We are moral because we are intelligent, we are not intelligent because we are moral. Morals are not universal. You're citing the end result of intelligence and giving morality the credit. I'm sorry, but that's really not something I can stand.

Morality has its place, but it's not everything. Common sense, common INSTINCT, not morality, dictates that if we as a species must work together to survive. Animals are not moral, they are instinctual, yet they work together to survive every damn day.

Why do you assume that morality, intelligence and instinct are completely separate spheres? Sure, morality developed as a result of intelligent thought, but is intelligence not simply an extension of instinct? Intelligence is the ability to learn things, to recognise patterns and to devise ways to become more effective. Animals can do all that, heck, even pigeons can, as the Skinner experiments have shown. And we humans also have instincts, our reaction to pain for example, our need for love. So, I don't think you can neatly categorise humans as intelligent and animals as instinctual actors.

So, if we only act morally because respectful cooperation ultimately serves our own interest, why would you not consider animals acting in the same way for the exact same reason moral? Perhaps then animals are capable of something approximating morality, or we are more instinctual that we like to admit.

We wage war because someone, somewhere thinks this is a good idea that in the end will relieve more suffering that it creates.

I'm sorry, but that's just plain ignorant. How many wars have been waged over self interest and progression of one's own culture at the cost of other cultures? Think of the English eradicating Native Americans. Think of WWII on the german's side. Think of the bleeding dictatorships in the middle easts. Those people had themselves in mind, not anyone else.[/quote]

I did say this is not a contention I share. I used the "just war" example to illustrate one way in which we seek to justify violence. I'm not a fan of war and I think when we're at the point where we have no other choice other than to wage war, we've screwed up massively a long time before that point.

 

[witheringsanity]

plants are living things too.... jus sayin

Plants aren't sentient nor do they feel anything, now go away.

and you know this.... how?? let me guess.. as a vegan, you have a psychic link to the plants, which neither think nor feel.

in that case, i contest that animals (other than humans) have no thoughts or feelings either. we can eat them all we like, cause in reality they just dont care.

 

[AndyFromMonday]

snip

The fact that we even do that proves our superiority.

 

[Dott]

tl;dr

I enjoy the taste of meat.

 

[Chris Rawlinson]

Personally I see no reason why eating meat is wrong. As many people in this tread have already said we where designed to hunt, we chased the ancestors of animals that are knocking around today until they died and then we ate them so that we could survive. Just because we've made the the process easier and more streamlined through farming doesn't make it any less about survival.

Having said that I'm not a farm of intensive farming, I wouldn't want to be crammed in a box with 500 other people.....


Please don't kill me with your psychic powers....

 

[Rainforce]

I did say this is not a contention I share. I used the "just war" example to illustrate one way in which we seek to justify violence. I'm not a fan of war and I think when we're at the point where we have no other choice other than to wage war, we've screwed up massively a long time before that point.

Sadly, we cannot live without war, because we always hunger for challenges of some sort, also for mere destruction (although as much as creation). It would be nice on the other hand if these primitive needs could be satisfied in a more controlled manner.

The fact that we even do that proves our superiority.

nice oneXD
but it sounds more like we have WAAAAAY too much time on our hands >_>

I need meat to live. I have blood deficiencies that make it mandatory that meats are part of my diet, mainly because of my low iron. Were I to become a vegetarian or vegan, I'd become a frail, weak and sickly. No, iron supplements aren't always enough. Sometimes I just need a goddamn steak to feel better! Tell you what. Humans are animals. When every other species of animal stops eating meat, I will as well, because that would mean we are more primitive than animals. We're designed to eat meat, so that's what we gotta do. No sense denying biology.

DAMN IT, I FORGOT THE BEST OPINION OF THEM ALL D:

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

SNIP[\quote]

Well lemme tell you what i think about this. Ill be surprised if you can counter this.

First off im a biomed student, and i think cloned meat from a single cell is the best idea ever. I cant wait to see or even work on this. Id eat this forever if i could. Now thats out of the way.

I eat meat. Its not a perfect thing, but very little is. Id rather have non killing food any day but i enjoy and can afford meat, and i eat it. Heres why.

While i think in a perfect world no animals should die i accept that some do. And they will die in these factories regardless of if i eat them or not. I like to think of myself more like a scavenger more than a carnivore. I accept that. Im a scavanger. And damn proud. Second the conditions of ALL the meat i buy is very good. The animals live long healthy lives in a free enviornment, where they are protected, kept warm, and kept happy. I vote with my wallet to give these animals the best damn time of their lives before i eat them. They deserve it.

I eat milk and eggs. And unlike you i actively support good treatment of them by paying those that treat these producers well. You dont pay anyone so you can say you a neutral really. I pay people who let the chickens roam free and pick up eggs that would simply fall to the ground and rot were it not for me eating them. That doesnt sound bad to you does it? Im a scavenger remember? I take what would usually be wasted. All im doing is taking something that exists anyway (eggs and excess milk) and consuming it because nothing else would. Its just efficient. I dream of test tube meat. One day it will happen.

 

[Deepzound]

(wall of text)

you really don't need to quote that many people, your opinion on the matter is enough.
It doesn't get better with the desperate attempt to try to prove ones own subjective perspective with others subjective perspective. That doesn't make it any more true.
(although I generally agree with your opinion, you sound way too desperate)

The only reason I quote these people is to counter the dogma I've seen reading through this thread asserting that Vegans are somehow weird and somehow on the fringe of society. Some of the greatest thinkers, and great historical figures, are for animals rights.

And yes, any perspective is subjective, but there is a difference between those perspectives without facts, and those with.

To make a short version of the previous post - inform yourself, don't make decisions based on ignorance, and if you eat meat and dairy, watch earthlings [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ce4DJh-L7Ys].

 

[Kahohess]

The only point in being omnivores is because we, as a spiece, foreseen the coming of the french fries with our steaks.

Do you have the Copy rights for that? Cus if you do, I DEMAND T-SHIRTS.

I don't, so feel free to print one for yourself !

 

[Darius Brogan]

I have a few questions to pose here, that I'm not entirely sure have been posed (There are ten bloody pages of responses)

1) Why does morality enter into the equation at all? We're not saying our appetites are more important than the life of an animal, we're saying our survival is more important.
It is human nature to eat meat. Just like it is Wolf nature to eat meat.
The law of nature is 'Survival of the fittest'. Humans may not be the best suited to the survival methods of wolves, or deer, or hawks, but we are the best suited to survival as HUMANS.
A wolves natural defense is thick fur; strong, sharp teeth; long, sharp claws.
A humans natural defense is the ability to make sure we don't have to protect ourselves. We alter our environment to be safer for us to live in.

2) How are humans in any way superior to animals? There is ONLY one difference between a human, and an animal.
A)That is not our language, because we have yet to find a living creature on this planet without a method of communication. (I will point out, however, that every animal on the planet seems to be able to communicate with animals of different species. Humans are the only ones that cannot)
B) That is not our 'morality'. Morality is a human mentality that we use to demonize anything we view as detestable. Animals have no need for it because they don't DO most of the things that humans view as detestable. They eat, they breed, they sleep, they live.

The ONLY difference between humans and animals is our obsessive need to control our surroundings.
Humans claim that everything we have done (Going to the moon, the Nuke, Robots, etc....) makes us superior to animals, because no animal has ever built a space shuttle, and no animal has ever built a TV, or anything else. Animals don't need to. Animals are content with simply living. Humans are really the only animal that needs to distract themselves from life.
Humans lay waste to everything they can to gather the resources they need to control their environment. You know what else does that? Viruses. Only viruses do it better.
The only difference between humans and viruses is our curiosity (Y'know, other than being a more complex cellular organism...). You know what else is inherently curious? Animals. Only other animals are smarter about it.

Humans are animals. Animals with a larger capacity for thought, true, but still animals.
If hunting wasn't human nature, we wouldn't do it.
If Eating meat wasn't human nature, we wouldn't do it.
If the need to make our environment suit us wasn't human nature, we wouldn't do it.

The simple fact that humans HAVE a 'nature' that we can't escape, proves that we are just animals. No better. No worse.