... I feel it can end up as a grind if there is something specific the player wants to get. What do I mean? Black Ops II has the most recent example of what I'm talking about. The M8A1 was the weapon I wanted to play with in the multiplayer and because it was one of the first weapons we saw in the game I thought it would be one of the first unlocks. Nope, level 49. Now what is bad about that? Well when you have a goal like that you are going to pick the game mode that deals out the most experience and just grind it to death and it gets really boring really fast. Here is an idea to get around that. When players get Create a Class, give them a weapon unlock for each class and unlock everything to pick from. The player picks the weapons for their classes and after using all their unlocks the weapons get re-locked to obtain by the level system. This way, players who have a goal like mine get what they want wthout grinding for it and because there are still weapons to unlock, the player is still able to experiment with different combinations. Now with all this said the six levels to get the M8A1 won't grind themselves. (Christ)
I'm Not Opposed to Leveling Up In Multiplayer As a Concept BUT...
- Thread starter cojo965
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In a way I do like leveling up, It gives me something to work for and I get time to appreciate each new weapon or 'unlock' rather than having everything at once, picking my favorite things from the off and never, ever changing.
Saying this I can see your point and to an extent I agree, it's annoying being told you are not allowed to use/do what you want until you grind enough, I believe a comedian called Dara O Briain sums it up well:
Saying this I can see your point and to an extent I agree, it's annoying being told you are not allowed to use/do what you want until you grind enough, I believe a comedian called Dara O Briain sums it up well:
So basically you liked the black ops 1 system . I prefer it this way . The problem with the other system was , once you knew what you wanted , you saves your money until like level 10 then played the rest of the game with the same gear . This way you acually have to work for what you want and change things up every so often . Thanks to this , i found my new love with the FAL . I got it to max level already that shit's awsome . This system let you experiment and keep shit balanced .
The amount of leveling up and unlockables in Battlefield 3 is so extensive that it is almost like a bad parody of these systems.
I do like that system but the problem is what happens unintentionally. When people find out the weapons that are broken or overpowered, people will start to ignore the other things even more so and the system of buying stuff you want falls into buying the "best" stuff.krazykidd said:
I've always hated the leveling system in Call of Duty. "Oh look, an enemy Helicopter. Too bad you only have the lvl 1 Rocket and can't shoot it down." I'm fine with the level ups being aesthitec things (Gun camos or titles or armor) but when you start locking equipment, especially essential equipment (see above example) It's very annoying.
I can't think of a single situation that can't be handled in Blops 2's multiplayer with the five starting loadouts. But I usually 'shoot down' helicopters, UAVs, RC-XD's, etc by hacking it with a Black Hat. Of which I carry two on all my loadouts along with Engineer because they're awesome. It's extremely rare to see someone else using Black Hats for some reason though. Guess it's because they prevent you from just spamming concussion grenades/shock charges for free kills. And because I'm the only person who thought to point it at an airplane.White Lightning said:
Also, I've been told that everything is automatically unlocked from the beginning in League Play. Haven't tried it yet, so I can't confirm or deny that though.
Edit: Also, the weapons that most people apparently feel are the best at the moment (MP7, Vector, Type-25, etc) are either available from the beginning or very early on. Later levels tend to unlock the fun, gimmicky stuff like the Ballistic Knife, Assault Shield, and Crossbow.
Levelling up is great in that it can help a player gradually get used to the games options and gives them something to work towards, but way too often screws over the newbies or makes substantial content take way too long to unlock.
I don't see why players shouldn't be allowed to just unlock stuff at their own pace. Just have everything available to purchase from the beginning and let players use their ingame currency/points thingies to grab stuff as they go. If they want a particular gun or piece of gear, let them get it without jumping through a ton of hoops. It can also seriously mess up class-based games in particular. It's completely stupid when none of your teams medic and engineer types can do their jobs because they haven't unlocked their classes gear yet.
It sucks when you aren't able to play how you want to because you need to spend an ungodly amount of time grinding to get the stuff that allows you to play how you want. Have dumb little cosmetic awards for that.
I don't see why players shouldn't be allowed to just unlock stuff at their own pace. Just have everything available to purchase from the beginning and let players use their ingame currency/points thingies to grab stuff as they go. If they want a particular gun or piece of gear, let them get it without jumping through a ton of hoops. It can also seriously mess up class-based games in particular. It's completely stupid when none of your teams medic and engineer types can do their jobs because they haven't unlocked their classes gear yet.
It sucks when you aren't able to play how you want to because you need to spend an ungodly amount of time grinding to get the stuff that allows you to play how you want. Have dumb little cosmetic awards for that.
Eh, I don't like any game where you have to unlock gameplay items, especially if they're advantageous rather than cool to have. Levels should unlock new skins for your items, and other aesthetic differences, not things that shift the balance of battles or force certain styles of playing a game.
I never prestiged and just been a 5-Star General until I found out the hard way that apparently prestige is important because you have to get to Presige 10 to able to unlock everything. Among the ungodly amount of problems Treyarch has caused instead of continuing what they learned from BO1, it makes no sense why now they're reducing flexibility on the user's part/player choice, especially those who prefer 5 stars on their rank after 5 years of COD. Why is experimenting and resetting stats suddenly a privilege? This is carrot on the stick on it's most ludicrous level. I hope they patch this (perhaps a compromise by losing a rank or more earn back tokens) but I'm afraid Treyarch is too stubborn at this point.
Eh, I think that levels should unlock new options (and therefor, more interesting choices) for the player. Everything should be really tightly balanced though, so no weapon is more powerful than another, just useful in different circumstances (or even maps). To crib an idea from a recent Extra Credits video, the unlocks should be just as interesting to fight against as they are to use.Joccaren said:
OT: I am not opposed to leveling up as a concept. I just think if a game is going to attempt to make it work, it needs really tight balancing (and by tight, I mean Starcraft 1 tight), otherwise they might as well not even bother. Problem is, many games that use leveling in multiplayer have not done it well. Like, at all, and it really ruins the experience.
I am really opposed to multiplayer unlock systems simply because it creates another hurdle for the new people to enter. For people new to a particular franchise or genre, they have to learn controls, map layouts, weapon handling, and strategies. No need to throw a progression system on top of that mess! Call of Duty 4 did it pretty well. The weapons you started with were among the most powerful and easiest to use, thus giving new people a fighting chance. Battlefield Bad Company did it great as well by allowing you to buy what you want, when you want with a small selection reserved for the people who level up all the way.
Battlefield 3 was an absolute, fucking atrocious example of how to do it wrong on every level. I got that game for Christmas, so by the time I got into it, everyone was miles ahead of me equipment wise. While I still fumbling around with the weak sniper rifles that required SEVERAL hits to kill, trying to learn map layouts and trying to figure out the bullet drop mechanics, enemy snipers were using one-hit-kill snipers (regardless of where they hit) with various attachments to make the accuracy spot on and zoom from far beyond what I could reasonably see. I ultimately gave up sniping and to this day the sniper with the most attachments I have is the one that has a flash suppressor by default, and I only have maybe 4 sniper rifles that aren't DLC.
The vehicles are even worse. I have no idea how to fly the helicopters and planes. The only time I have a chance to even practice flying one is online against an army of people armed with Javelins, Stingers, SOFLAMs, and laser-guided tank shells. Meanwhile I'm trying to shoot down ace pilots that are fully equipped with various upgrades that make shooting them down with Stingers nearly impossible. Again, this lead to me just giving up on piloting aircraft and sticking to battling on foot.
Then EA pulls another slimy business move and capitalize on the people struggling by giving us the choice to unlock the tools necessary to compete with the people that have been with the game since the beginning... if we pay another $40
Battlefield 3 was an absolute, fucking atrocious example of how to do it wrong on every level. I got that game for Christmas, so by the time I got into it, everyone was miles ahead of me equipment wise. While I still fumbling around with the weak sniper rifles that required SEVERAL hits to kill, trying to learn map layouts and trying to figure out the bullet drop mechanics, enemy snipers were using one-hit-kill snipers (regardless of where they hit) with various attachments to make the accuracy spot on and zoom from far beyond what I could reasonably see. I ultimately gave up sniping and to this day the sniper with the most attachments I have is the one that has a flash suppressor by default, and I only have maybe 4 sniper rifles that aren't DLC.
The vehicles are even worse. I have no idea how to fly the helicopters and planes. The only time I have a chance to even practice flying one is online against an army of people armed with Javelins, Stingers, SOFLAMs, and laser-guided tank shells. Meanwhile I'm trying to shoot down ace pilots that are fully equipped with various upgrades that make shooting them down with Stingers nearly impossible. Again, this lead to me just giving up on piloting aircraft and sticking to battling on foot.
Then EA pulls another slimy business move and capitalize on the people struggling by giving us the choice to unlock the tools necessary to compete with the people that have been with the game since the beginning... if we pay another $40
Problem with that is that the interesting playstyles are locked at the start, so you only have the 'boring' vanilla one, and even if as balanced as the game can get, some maps, teams, or sets of those strategies will be OP, and there is no way to balance that out without recreating the map, or nerfing those strategies so they're useless on their own but competitive in a group, which just locks out options for competitive play for people.BreakfastMan said:Eh, I think that levels should unlock new options (and therefor, more interesting choices) for the player. Everything should be really tightly balanced though, so no weapon is more powerful than another, just useful in different circumstances (or even maps). To crib an idea from a recent Extra Credits video, the unlocks should be just as interesting to fight against as they are to use.Joccaren said:
I wouldn't mind the idea of unlocking things other than aesthetic stuff if it were possible to balance, but if you are going to perfectly balance it you're going to be unlocking what you already have, and if you unlock something different to what you have its not going to be balanced thanks to players being able to think make balanced things over powered. A Starcraft example, though from 2 - the bunker reaper rush. 2 Things that were reasonably balanced on their own, but together became OP. After patching to fix that, I've not seen anyone use reapers as it just isn't worth it.
I didn't have much of an issue with unlocking the weapons, but OMG, trying to unlock jet upgrades was AWFUL. I get up in the sky trying to figure out hot to fly the damn thing (still can't fly all that well), and some guy with heat seeking missiles shoots me down. And I couldn't do ANYTHING. No flares, no knowledge of how to maneuver out of such a situation. I still have only like a couple things unlocked for planes (partly because I'm terrible, partly because guys with all the upgrades shoot me down in moments.Magicman10893 said:
This is why people suck. No one wants to work for anything anymore. Why read a book, there's a movie? Why can't I just have those new Nikes, I have to go earn money to buy them? Will someone just give it to me for free?
Also, incentives extend the length of time players will play a game. If you stop earning things after level 5, some gamers get bored and move along to the next title. If you keep them wanting more items/options/etc, they may keep playing. Established value increases future sales.
Also, incentives extend the length of time players will play a game. If you stop earning things after level 5, some gamers get bored and move along to the next title. If you keep them wanting more items/options/etc, they may keep playing. Established value increases future sales.
The system should have easier unlockable weapons, but it should stay. It gives a reason to play the game. Their is league play, or you could play another game, and maybe find ways to improve the multiplayer skills you have. For me I was able to improve my skills using clearer displays, and focusing on a single weapon.
It sounds to me like most people in this thread are saying they want unlock systems to be like Halo 4's multiplayer unlocks, with unlock points to be used for weapons/perks in any order and longer term cosmetic unlocks. I do think these systems are much better than systems like Battlefield. You need to grind for each class to be able to unlock necessary equipment to fulfill the class's role, or try to camp vehicle spawns so that you can unevenly fight against other vehicles with the upgrades that you haven't reached yet.
It's not a question of "I need to be treated as a special snowflake give me everything" and more a question of "the best equipment is only available to the players that have put a huge amount of time into the game, messing up game balance" as other people have said, new players will enter the game not only at a disadvantage from not knowing maps/ being unfamiliar with the controls etc. but also because other people's weapons are leagues ahead of theirs in power, accuracy, etc.StylinBones said:
Multiplayer games like Battlefield, COD, Halo etc. should work by being as balanced as possible, so the most important attribute a player can have is skill. Creating a gameplay situation where you come across another player, and they defeat you, not because they were faster at the draw, and not because their weapon was more effective in that particular situation, but because they were using a better version of your gun that gave them more damage with no drawbacks or balances to offset it, and you are unable to use that version because it is only unlocked at a much higher level.
Leveling in multiplayer is a good idea, and there should be rewards for people as they level up, but direct gameplay advantages like really powerful guns should not be the focus of this. Customisation, interesting add-ons would be much better for gameplay balance (incidentally this is exactly what Team Fortress 2 do: Most prizes are cosmetic, and all weapon upgrades come with some disadvantage to offset themselves) In my opinion that is a better system for multiplayer leveling.
I agree that the job of a developer is to make a MP game balanced for everyone, but that's not what we're seeing. Game companies feel that unlocks are the best way to keep people playing their game a.k.a. not selling it to GameStop so it can be re-sold without them seeing a dime of that profit. My best advice would be to get in early and play often if you want to keep up with the youngsters who get to play games all day and don't have to go to work.Hero in a half shell said: