I'm super depressed about sexism in gaming...

[Moonlight Butterfly]

I bet you are all sitting there thinking 'Oh yay another gender thread!' This isn't a thread about how much clothes female characters are wearing or whatever (Apart from a small comment at the end*) it's about the simple attitude some guys have towards women playing video games.

Like many of you on this forum know I have been playing games for a loooong time. It's my most beloved hobby but I'm not going to sit here and justify myself any more than that.

Firstly I don't know why having ovaries makes you a different gamer. Secondly gaming does not belong to men. Yes the devs often cater to lads over women because of demographic but that does not mean they have some sort of divine right that makes their opinion more valid.

You see when someone says 'How dare people like (insert woman here) come into our hobby and tell us what's wrong with it! They are doing two things. They are claiming gaming as some sort of medium that only belongs to them and they are depriving someone of the right to an opinion just because they are female.

Also there is some sort of reaction of 'Why don't you go off and make your own games! Instead of asking men to do it for you.' This works on the assumption that all developers are male and the only people who are allowed to have an opinion about games are people who make them (if that was true forums like this wouldn't exist.)

Lastly the existence of female cons like 'Geek Girl Con' do not prove that 'men should be allowed to exclude women too' They are only there because women feel like they cannot be part of the main scene. If you look at pictures of those cons, sure they aren't as busy as the main cons but there is a significantly different amount of women you see there and in the pictures from the main cons. That is disturbing to me. It suggests that women feel like the main gaming cons aren't relevant or just plain hostile to them.

Maybe I'm preaching to the converted here, Escapists tend to be intelligent people, but diversity in games isn't a bad thing.

Please add your own thoughts or post pictures of spider-man and ponies to cheer me up, either works fine.

*PS. As an aside I had an idea about adding a toggle to games to change the outfits of female characters (and I guess, maybe even male characters.) That way we can stop women feeling put off by PVC clad nuns without depriving the lads of their eye candy. Seems simple doesn't it. Considering a lot of games already have costume changes I don't think it would be that difficult to implement either. Other methods of reducing sexualisation while not pissing some people off might be more difficult, but one step at a time I guess. One step at a time

(If you have nothing to say other than 'I am sick of these threads' then please just don't post it isn't helpful or constructive.)

 

[Giftfromme]

Ponies solve all issues, including yours. Don;t have a pony, man

 

[KP Shadow]

I've always been somewhat apathetic towards the whole "Girl gamer" thing, but, from what I can tell, there are two types:

The "Gamer Girl", or the camwhore who pretends to be into games for attention.
And the girl gamer, who is just that. A girl who plays video games.

And, yeah, there is quite a bit of sexism in gaming. It's a really disappointing fact, and it really needs to go away, but there's no way we can just make it disappear overnight. Just try to fight it, and reduce the problem as much as you can. And make sure to always discuss it logically (Which you have, for the most part). Nobody likes it when someone's acting like they have a Gundam up their ass, even if they are, for the most part, in the right.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

Firstly I don't know why having ovaries makes you a different gamer. Secondly gaming does not belong to men. Yes the devs often cater to lads over women because of demographic but that does not mean they have some sort of divine right that makes their opinion more valid.

It?s usually assumed that the creator of a product has all the inherent rights to it, unless they so choose to give it away. It?s why we have those pesky TOS on most games now. The Devs can do as they please, and we have to accept that.

You see when someone says 'How dare people like (insert woman here) come into our hobby and tell us what's wrong with it! They are doing two things. They are claiming gaming as some sort of medium that only belongs to them and they are depriving someone of the right to an opinion just because they are female.

That?s not actually how I see it represented, which is the fundamental failure in the communication of the two sides. They see it as someone coming into a hobby they?re enjoying and telling them something is wrong with it. The difference is quite subtle, but there is a difference nonetheless. Surely you can understand where the reaction comes from? I certainly don't want someone telling me I shouldn't enjoy something because they don't like how they interpret it.

If they shared their opinion as an opinion, I don?t think the problem would be as escalated as it is. The problem is that people who share their opinions publicly aren?t representing them as opinion; they?re representing them as fact.

Also there is some sort of reaction of 'Why don't you go off and make your own games! Instead of asking men to do it for you.' This works on the assumption that all developers are male and the only people who are allowed to have an opinion about games are people who make them (if that was true forums like this wouldn't exist.)

It?s a valid response to be honest. Nothing is preventing them from creating their own companies and competing in the open market by creating games they feel better represent their positions.

Criticism is one thing, and certainly valid in the realm of creativity, but there is a fundamental difference between simply critiquing something, and asking that it be changed. How many film critiques demand studios alter their content to cater to their preferred tastes? Why bother changing something that was fully functional to begin with? Remember the amount of stupidity in ET?s guns to walky-talky debacle?

Lastly the existence of female cons like 'Geek Girl Con' do not prove that 'men should be allowed to exclude women too'

Someone said this did? Some questionable reasoning going on there.

They are only there because women feel like they cannot be part of the main scene. If you look at pictures of those cons, sure they aren't as busy as the main cons but there is a significantly different amount of women you see there and in the pictures from the main cons. That is disturbing to me. It suggests that women feel like the main gaming cons aren't relevant or just plain hostile to them.

What exactly is preventing women from attending cons? The possibility of lecherous men? This is nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy. Unlike certain conventions that have specific restrictions on attendance, gaming conventions have none.

Maybe I'm preaching to the converted here, Escapists tend to be intelligent people, but diversity in games isn't a bad thing.

I don?t think anyone ever said it was. Any evidence to support this statement?

*PS. As an aside I had an idea about adding a toggle to games to change the outfits of female characters (and I guess, maybe even male characters.) That way we can stop women feeling put off by PVC clad nuns without depriving the lads of their eye candy. Seems simple doesn't it. Considering a lot of games already have costume changes I don't think it would be that difficult to implement either. Other methods of reducing sexualisation while not pissing some people off might be more difficult, but one step at a time I guess. One step at a time

While both an existing and realistic idea, I doubt this would satisfy certain outspoken individuals as the very existence of that possibility seems to be what offends them, not the option itself. Which is another reason why such layered controversy exists.

 

[Bassik]

Well Moonlight, what can I say? I agree with you.
Nothing more to say, really, you are absoluteley right and I can't understand why this is still an issue for some people.

I guess... some (very vocal) gamers are affraid of whatever it is you lot got between your legs? Could it be that simple? I think it might be.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

.
Firstly I don't know why having ovaries makes you a different gamer. Secondly gaming does not belong to men. Yes the devs often cater to lads over women because of demographic but that does not mean they have some sort of divine right that makes their opinion more valid.

Well devs get to decide what they want in a game, and if they feel that characters should look a certain way, then why shouldn't they have "divine right" to make the character as they see fit?

You see when someone says 'How dare people like (insert woman here) come into our hobby and tell us what's wrong with it! They are doing two things. They are claiming gaming as some sort of medium that only belongs to them and they are depriving someone of the right to an opinion just because they are female.

I think DevilWithaHalo nailed it, from what I understand it isn't that people are opposed to women joining this hobby[footnote]I'm sure there are exceptions[/footnote], its that people resent being told that their form of entertainment is "wrong" because somebody else(in this case women[footnote]not all, I'm sure there are women who couldn't care less[/footnote]) are offended by it. You'll notice that gamers have a similar reaction when the other people(like the media) condemn video games ( like how the media brings up how enjoying video games is "bad" because of how they claim it can be attributed to school shootings).

Also there is some sort of reaction of 'Why don't you go off and make your own games! Instead of asking men to do it for you.' This works on the assumption that all developers are male and the only people who are allowed to have an opinion about games are people who make them (if that was true forums like this wouldn't exist.)

No.... that is going on the logic that if you don't like what the medium is creating, then perhaps you should try to produce your own work. Its easy to criticize others and point out the flaws in their work, but it can be quite difficult to create your own work.

If some many female gamers are against the direction in which this form of entertainment is going, then I suggest that they come together and produce their own contribution. I fully believe that there are many smart women out there that would be fully capable of fulfilling such a task.

Lastly the existence of female cons like 'Geek Girl Con' do not prove that 'men should be allowed to exclude women too' They are only there because women feel like they cannot be part of the main scene. If you look at pictures of those cons, sure they aren't as busy as the main cons but there is a significantly different amount of women you see there and in the pictures from the main cons. That is disturbing to me. It suggests that women feel like the main gaming cons aren't relevant or just plain hostile to them.

I don't support segregating women from Game Cons, but I think your making assumptions about what these women(who are we talking about exactly?) are there for.

Please add your own thoughts or post pictures of spider-man and ponies to cheer me up, either works fine.

*sees your request for ponies*

*PS. As an aside I had an idea about adding a toggle to games to change the outfits of female characters (and I guess, maybe even male characters.) That way we can stop women feeling put off by PVC clad nuns without depriving the lads of their eye candy. Seems simple doesn't it. Considering a lot of games already have costume changes I don't think it would be that difficult to implement either. Other methods of reducing sexualisation while not pissing some people off might be more difficult, but one step at a time I guess. One step at a time

I'd support having alternative costumes.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

It?s usually assumed that the creator of a product has all the inherent rights to it, unless they so choose to give it away. It?s why we have those pesky TOS on most games now. The Devs can do as they please, and we have to accept that.

That's not really what I was getting at but even if you approach it from a 'creative rights point of view' Not all games developers are men so this reasoning is erroneous. Gaming doesn't belong to a single gender. If it was I could argue Yahtzee could never critique quantum conundrum or Portal because he isn't a woman.

That?s not actually how I see it represented, which is the fundamental failure in the communication of the two sides. They see it as someone coming into a hobby they?re enjoying and telling them something is wrong with it. The difference is quite subtle, but there is a difference nonetheless. Surely you can understand where the reaction comes from? I certainly don't want someone telling me I shouldn't enjoy something because they don't like how they interpret it.

If they shared their opinion as an opinion, I don?t think the problem would be as escalated as it is. The problem is that people who share their opinions publicly aren?t representing them as opinion; they?re representing them as fact.

I understand what you are saying but you have to see that sometimes the opinions people have can be accurate. I mean anyone with eyes can see Ivy from Soul Calibur is an oversexualised representation of a woman that makes some women feel demeaned and uncomfortable, I have a theory women tend to put themselves 'in the shoes' of their avatars more than men (which leads to these problems). Both Susan Arendt and I both stopped playing the Soul Calibur series because it just felt like playing in a strip club eventually.

It?s a valid response to be honest. Nothing is preventing them from creating their own companies and competing in the open market by creating games they feel better represent their positions.

Criticism is one thing, and certainly valid in the realm of creativity, but there is a fundamental difference between simply critiquing something, and asking that it be changed. How many film critiques demand studios alter their content to cater to their preferred tastes? Why bother changing something that was fully functional to begin with? Remember the amount of stupidity in ET?s guns to walky-talky debacle?

No it really isn't a valid response. You see the thing with movies is that they are fine tuned before we see them. Did you know Luke Skywalker was originally a woman called 'Starkiller' but they changed it to have a romance subplot with Leia (which ironically they later changed again to Han). Also if you view Jim Sterling's recent video, complaining is basically the best tool gamers have to get their views implemented. Just look at the Mass Effect business. To finish answering this point I'm pretty happy with games as they are it's only the portrayal of women that bothers me which I'm sure is true of other female gamers too. I mean, we wouldn't be gamers otherwise would we.

I would say, and of course this is generalising, that most women don't want games to run into Barbie or Twilight we just want our sex to be shown a little more respect within the medium of narrative and artistic representation. I'm not sure that's a greatly terrible thing to ask especially if you made it optional like my clothing idea. Women are already voting with their wallets. Bethesda's Fallout, Mass Effect and Dark Souls (I know right) all have massive female followings purely because they allow us to play a female 'heroine' on an equal footing with a guy.

I don?t think anyone ever said it was. Any evidence to support this statement?

As for these statements they are point of views I have seen before but what what it's worth I am glad you are as incredulous about them as I am. A for what is preventing women form attending cons, I don't know I myself would love to go to all the cons if I had the money but if I had to guess it would be the expectation of the same treatment we get on xbox live and the idea that those cons are heavily male centric with booth babes and a large male presence which can be quite intimidating. I know a guy who was nervous about Weight Watchers because of the amount of women there.

While both an existing and realistic idea, I doubt this would satisfy certain outspoken individuals as the very existence of that possibility seems to be what offends them, not the option itself. Which is another reason why such layered controversy exists.

It would be an ideal solution for me. I mean you don't really get women complaining about mods such as ones that put Serena in her underwear or have skimpy Fallout 3 costumes. So I "think" that the majority of female gamers would be absolutely fine with that. Especially in single player games.

Another issue I have is the fact that in an RPG the female character is often treated the same as a guy and there is little representation for straight women in some dialogue option. Sometimes we are ignored outright (marriage options in KOA). Frankly if there is another option I pick then that's great but it would be nice if the women I just turned down didn't continue to flirt with me like I'm the last burger in hungry town and the Male NPC's act like I'm chopped liver However I guess we have seen the controversy that Ander's wrought when he came onto guys male characters (that's pretty much how women feel a lot of the time in RPG's)


Wooo sorry for the long post but your answer was very reasonable and deserved a proper response.

Also I apologize if something I said/spelling is not amazing I'm a bit poorly atm lol

snip

See my post to Devil

And Alan Rickman is just as good if not better than ponies where ponies are not available.
.

 

[Keoul]

Firstly I don't know why having ovaries makes you a different gamer.

I do not understand this statement, could you elaborate? what I understand is that you mean girls play games differently, as in they take a different approach to games which could hold some merit...

Secondly gaming does not belong to men..

I concur, most that argue that devs cater to lads more seem to forget all those PC games. Especially facebook games which have cutesy graphics that wouldn't be as appealing to men.
Exhibit A

Spoiler: Farmville

Also there is some sort of reaction of 'Why don't you go off and make your own games! Instead of asking men to do it for you.' This works on the assumption that all developers are male

Well they could... just laying that out there. If there isn't a game they enjoy out in the market they could create their own instead of trying to change a product people already enjoy to cater to their wants.

and the only people who are allowed to have an opinion about games are people who make them (if that was true forums like this wouldn't exist.)

Who thought this up? must be a loony who never heard of game critics/reviewers

Lastly the existence of female cons like 'Geek Girl Con' do not prove that 'men should be allowed to exclude women too' They are only there because women feel like they cannot be part of the main scene.

What's geek girl con about?
As in what takes place? I just took a gander at their site and all I could get out of it was a doctor who fan meeting which seems like something both genders would enjoy... and I'm under the impression that men go to 'Geek Girl Con' as well seeing as their event will have a burlesque dance during intermission, or maybe their lesbians, iunno I'll assume the both.

If you look at pictures of those cons, sure they aren't as busy as the main cons but there is a significantly different amount of women you see there and in the pictures from the main cons. That is disturbing to me. It suggests that women feel like the main gaming cons aren't relevant or just plain hostile to them.

I find it silly you are disturbed by there being more girls at a girls con than guys. It seemed kinda obvious it's in the name ya know

I guess a fine solution to this problem would be to teach more girls how to make games. It counters like, 2 of your complaints right there on the spot.

'How dare people like (insert woman here) come into our hobby and tell us what's wrong with it!'

They made it so they have the right to tell you if something is wrong in the industry.

'Why don't you go off and make your own games! Instead of asking men to do it for you.'

They are making their own games so this would be invalid as well

 

[Scrustle]

Actually, women are pretty under-represented in the industry. There's a lot of women playing games, but not so much making them. Needless to say, there should be more.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Actually, women are pretty under-represented in the industry. There's a lot of women playing games, but not so much making them. Needless to say, there should be more.

I know it's about 12% in Britain (stat taken from The Guardian) but you are right there should be more.

Quote from a female dev:

Mitu Khandaker, who started programming at the age of 12 and now runs her own indie development studio, Tiniest Shark, credits "a complicated mix of marketing, early arcade culture, and deep-seated cultural expectations" for the status quo. "There are a lot of things in games that women can point to and go 'this isn't for me', whether that's eye-rollingly sexualised female characters, or just the openly misogynistic attitudes to be found within many gaming communities."

 

[Tekkawarrior]

So umm yeah, this deserved a thread? Yeah, we get it. I think we ALL get it by now, I could have sworn I've seen this posted so many times.

I couldn't help but read the entire post in his voice. And I totally agree.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

SNIP

So umm yeah, this deserved a thread? Yeah, we get it. I think we ALL get it by now, I could have sworn I've seen this posted so many times.

I couldn't help but read the entire post in his voice. And I totally agree.

Then why did you click on the thread It's not the only one on the forum.

 

[Tekkawarrior]

So umm yeah, this deserved a thread? Yeah, we get it. I think we ALL get it by now, I could have sworn I've seen this posted so many times.

I couldn't help but read the entire post in his voice. And I totally agree.

Then why did you click on the thread It's not the only one on the forum.

Specifically to tell you what was said above.
Maybe I come across as rude, I assure you this is not my intention. It's just that
girls need to be patient, the market will one day balance.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

So umm yeah, this deserved a thread? Yeah, we get it. I think we ALL get it by now, I could have sworn I've seen this posted so many times.

I couldn't help but read the entire post in his voice. And I totally agree.

Then why did you click on the thread It's not the only one on the forum.

Specifically to tell you what was said above.

Why? You came in a thread that you don't want to read just to complain that it exists?

ooookay.

 

[Tekkawarrior]

So umm yeah, this deserved a thread? Yeah, we get it. I think we ALL get it by now, I could have sworn I've seen this posted so many times.

I couldn't help but read the entire post in his voice. And I totally agree.

Then why did you click on the thread It's not the only one on the forum.

Specifically to tell you what was said above.

Why? You came in a thread that you don't want to read just to complain that it exists?

ooookay.

I understand this might be confusing for you. But yes, people actually do that.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip.

It does seem confusing, and completely pointless

 

[Toy Master Typhus]

I am super depressed by you fighting straw-men on this site that, mostly agrees with you, when you could be out fighting the real enemy you describe on an Xbox Live Forum. You complaining here doesn't do anything other then stir fires for issues that we need solutions for and not more pointing them out.

"Yes we know there is a giant fucking hole in the wall you pointing it out doesn't make it any smaller now does it?"

The problem is you have a medium that's has it's majority because of a self pooling cycle and money. The current ratio of women in the industry right now is near 15.5 men to 1 woman. This generally represents the number of people who play "Hardcore" video games. You are also forgetting the fact that this is a business first as much as we all like to preach about it being an art and doing it for that, we need money. How do we get money? From bankers and publishers who don't care about how we advance the medium, only how they make money. They always ask for insurance so they pay a group of people who do marketing to create a stereotype that they are aiming for, that stereotype is a Male between the ages of 16 and 22 who are vulnerable to sexualisation.

It is because women don't fit into that stereotype that causes this. Women feel uncomfortable and leave, with only hardliners like you staying and while a few of those hardliner women do plan on picking up careers as game developers, the majority of people who choose to become developers are people who play video games, and that market is filled with men. Notice there is a cycle of sorts.

I hate how you seem to think that sexualisation is bad thing, objectification is. A girl in less then practical clothing is harmless. A girl in less then practical clothing for the sake of being in the less the practical clothing isn't. Isn't it the context that matters?

More over isn't it a little unreasonable to assume that one person let alone a group understand anything outside of their personnel experiences? If being a woman was such an easy thing to understand would we not be in this situation right now?

This isn't a problem that can just be solved by complaining over the internet this really is a problem that has to be solved by more women making videogames. Anything else is just deluding yourselves.

I apologize if the first part is a little too direct but I am just so fucking sick of dealing with this. You facing the people who agree with you doesn't advance your point, You facing people who don't is what does.

 

[Dreiko_v1legacy]

You see when someone says 'How dare people like (insert woman here) come into our hobby and tell us what's wrong with it! They are doing two things. They are claiming gaming as some sort of medium that only belongs to them and they are depriving someone of the right to an opinion just because they are female.

I think there is a third, much more core element here, which you seem to overlook out of it not being something about men.



People, people of both sexes, are averse to change. When anyone, of any gender, tries to change your loved hobby, you lash out.



The problem is that the women tackle the topic from a united "WOMEN WANT THIS" front which sadly makes ALL women the targets of the backlash from the people averse to the proposed changes.


If gamers of both sexes went and proposed such changes in a gender neutral way I assure you the reaction would have been different. If there was a movement of "make the online/player-to-player interactions better for EVERYONE", rather than focusing on women, the backlash would be much smaller because there wouldn't be any single body of people to target, it'd be like a sea of zebras and the lions wouldn't be able to pick one.


The way it was done now, there was a clear applicant for the changes...and that was in my opinion the wrong way to go about it.



Now, I will grant you that yes, my suggestion when implemented fully would definitely not help women as much as the one suggested by the "women only" side...but I do think they have a much higher chance of actually getting to that stage and ultimately would have a better outlook.


A successful attempt which nets you 50 is better than a failed attempt which would net you 100 if it had worked.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Then I'll be sure to point out every time someone complains about a video game that if they don't like it they should make a game themselves. See how ridiculous that is?

I agree with you about objectification but even when a character has the deepest backstory ever it still can't explain why she chose strips of pvc to fight in. Over sexualisation is clearly a bad thing because as you said it turns women away from gaming. It's exclusionary and it's also not necessary. Women can also be attractive without having boobs bigger than their head.

We know why the developers do it but what some women are arguing is that they shouldn't because it's having the negative effect that you are describing especially when you don't need sexualisation to make a game popular. Portal or hell even COD for instance.

This is kind of what depresses me men seems to want us to not say what we like and have any input into the games we play.

As for fearing change like I said earlier I played Soul Calibur a lot when it first came out but then the outfits just seem to get worse and worse. That was changing something that I liked for the worse. So why are men so scared of something changing for the better (in that I mean better characterisation, plot, etc)

If you don't want to deal with it then don't. No one is forcing you to come in this thread and have a go at me are they. You could have just ignored it.