I'm super depressed about sexism in gaming...

[SlaveNumber23]

So umm yeah, this deserved a thread? Yeah, we get it. I think we ALL get it by now, I could have sworn I've seen this posted so many times.

Really? Just because you have seen similar threads before this person is not eligible to make their own and share their opinion? If you are tired of these kinds of threads, simply don't click on them or just ignore them? Moonlight Butterfly is not making multiple threads of the same general topic and nothing is forcing you to read this one. So next time you see a thread on a topic you personally have seen a lot of, instead of trampling on someones opinion, show some manners, take a deep breath, swallow your pride and ignore it.

Original Post

I agree completely with everything you said, but the depressing thing is that anyone who disagrees with you, that is someone who believes that females have no place in gaming, doesn't seem like the kind of person to listen to reason. Its mind boggling how many people fail to realize that while males and females are obviously not equivalent beings (mind I am not saying that one has more value than the other, I am saying that there are differences between the two) they should regardless have equal rights, which includes involvement in gaming.

With regards to the minimalist female outfits in games, I feel that outside of character customization this in a non issue. I believe that the developers should be able to do what they want. In my opinion gamers believe they are entitled to a way bigger say in the development of games than they should be, for example the Mass Effect 3 ending outcry was just ridiculous.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

No idea what this thread is even for. Anybody who isn't an ignorant shit-head agrees with gender equality at this point.

 

[surg3n]

Thing is though, men hold the advantage where it comes to videogames - all sexism, assumptions, and gender roles aside... Men buy much more games than women, there are far more male game designers and programmers than women. Men just have more say, accept that, you have to, because the publishers are not inclined to change anything.

But what about indi games?

Well, indi games are developed by men, yet they can be far less distinct in their target audience - I mean it's actually quite rare to see an indi game that even remotely follows the general AAA, male orientated production. But, indi games are developed by men - can anyone name me 1 female indi developer?
If women were more inclined to stick with it, and lets say a female team produced an indi game - well it would be huge, everyone would be interested in seeing the result, the team would probably make some decent coin as well. So why doesn't that ever happen?

Videogaming is full of stereotypes, most AAA videogame heroes are white men, basically anyone who isn't a white male has a reason to feel left out... but at the same time, there are a lot of games that are far more neutral, have strong female characters, or completely bypass any distinction in race, sex, or colour. There are always options, but I just think it's completely fruitless to complain about AAA games focussing on their main customer base, nothing can or will change in that regard, you have to accept the games for what they are, or ignore them.

I had a fairly heated 'debate' the last time I commented on this stuff, but what strikes me is that nobody really has to know anything about you on an online game! - there's is nothing stopping women, homosexuals, obese folk etc from playing as anonymously as most men do. Not everyone sits and dishes out abuse when playing a game, most people are more interested in doing well at the game than starting arguments with randoms. You play the game as anonymously as you want, it's not a case of hiding, it's a case of focussing on the reason why your playing the game in the first place.

 

[Easton Dark]

But, indi games are developed by men - can anyone name me 1 female indi developer?

Quote from a female dev:

Mitu Khandaker, who started programming at the age of 12 and now runs her own indie development studio, Tiniest Shark, credits "a complicated mix of marketing, early arcade culture, and deep-seated cultural expectations" for the status quo. "There are a lot of things in games that women can point to and go 'this isn't for me', whether that's eye-rollingly sexualised female characters, or just the openly misogynistic attitudes to be found within many gaming communities."

There ya go. Named in this very thread. It's not hard to find things if you look for them. Just google female indie developer.

 

[surg3n]

But, indi games are developed by men - can anyone name me 1 female indi developer?

Quote from a female dev:

Mitu Khandaker, who started programming at the age of 12 and now runs her own indie development studio, Tiniest Shark, credits "a complicated mix of marketing, early arcade culture, and deep-seated cultural expectations" for the status quo. "There are a lot of things in games that women can point to and go 'this isn't for me', whether that's eye-rollingly sexualised female characters, or just the openly misogynistic attitudes to be found within many gaming communities."

There ya go. Named in this very thread. It's not hard to find things if you look for them. Just google female indie developer.

Ahah! - but I was thinking more 'off the top of your head' kinda thing, like not something you have to google. It's good to know though, I will be seeing what Tiniest Shark (great name!) have come up with or are working on.

 

[Legion]

So umm yeah, this deserved a thread? Yeah, we get it. I think we ALL get it by now, I could have sworn I've seen this posted so many times.

I agree with you for once

Taking it a step further, OP knows this has been done to death and still posted, giving herself the characteristics of the stereotypical girl gamer attention seeker, thereby taking a step back on gender equality, hurrah

This topic can lead to nothing but rehashing of old info or a gifmarathon again (OP even ASKED for it) neither of which contribute anything.

Congratulations on proving her point.

If she was a male, would yuo have said "Oh god, another attention seeking male gamer?"

No, I sincerely doubt it. It's actually this kind of attitude that is in the way of full equality more than anything else, the idea that a point is more or less valid based upon who is saying it, as opposed to the quality of the point itself.

That said, I do not agree with all of the points made in the opening post.

While I do agree that the attitude that gaming 'belongs to men' is absolutely ridiculous, I do not think that there is anything wrong with game developers doing what they want with their own games, regardless of how seemingly sexist or stupid they are.

People have the right to dislike it, to complain or to boycott it, but to be honest, the same argument can be used that the OP is using against people in this thread: "If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to play it". I dislike games that have women in skimpy outfits for the sake of it, and so I avoid them, it's that simple.

I also despise the argument that the industry "needs" more women, because that line of argument is what leads to "forced equality" when it comes to recruiting.

A company has 10 spaces that needs filling, they have 30 applicants of mixed race and gender and varying abilities, so whom should they pick?

The most talented and hard working is the obvious answer, but in a lot of cases they pick the demographic that they are lacking. More men than women? Make sure to pick a woman then. Too many Africans, but no Asians? Okay we need more Asians to make things equal.

The only reason that it should be an issue that there are more men than women in the industry, is if women are deliberately being overlooked in favour of men, despite having superior talent and work ethics.

 

[Spirit356]

You know, the more I read these articles and posts about the debate about sexism in gaming the more I think that they all miss the key point about what the underlying issue is under the sexism and that is to a lot of men who play video games or any other 'nerdy' hobby such as Wargaming, Tabletop Roleplaying and so on you will always be the enemy. Now I have no idea how long each and every individual female gamer has been playing games for but I think it's more than safe to assume that in the past the vast majority of gamers were male. These men held an unusual hobby in a different time and may have been persecuted for it, maybe directly by bullies or authrotiy figures or maybe indirectly i.e. people being unwilling to socalise with them. I can't count the number of times I was told to quit playing with toys because I collected a Warhammer army or threw funny shaped dice around and pretended I was a Dwarf.

However, times change and these hobbies become more accessible and diverse as time goes by and I am all for that but you have to remember that there will always be a rearguard whose resentment now leaves them unable to see you as anything but the girl who found their interest in Gundam silly or whatever. I know from experience that a lot of male gamers see female gamers as 'fairweather fans' at best, now of course this isn't fair and isn't even completely accurate but all they see when they read articles and posts such as this is 'I wasn't here when x was in its infancy but now that I'm here I'm going to tell you all how this should be done,' and that in itself is the crux of the issue.

Also there are some people who will always just be dicks and they're the other group in this issue.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

snip

I'm not depressed about video games I'm depressed about the attitude towards my gender. Sometimes I think it would be easier to be a guy.

As I tried to explain above, a lot of the attitude stems from the unified "women for the change of gamer culture" approach which seems to be perceived by the gamer community. (I'm unsure if such a thing really is true, since if it was, there wouldn't be quite as many women gamers, as stated above)




Anyways, being a guy wouldn't be any easier I don't think, that way you'd be subjected to all the crap and instead of having an army of white knights and others fighting for you people would belittle you for minding such treatment on top of treating you like crap.

At least people would just let me be a gamer and enjoy the games I have loved for 26 years instead of assuming I'm some sort of attention seeking whore.

Well, I'm an anime fan, there's people out there who think us anime fans are some weird combination of man-children, pedophiles, aspergers patients and shut-ins. You know what I say? Screw them!



There's always gonna be retards out there. You can't give them the power of affecting you to the point of depression, if you do that they win. I'm not telling you to get thicker skin or to not be affected, it's perfectly normal for those things to happen. I'm telling you to push through the crap and keep what's truly good about gaming still alive in your heart if it really does matter that much.

Yeah, when people offend me with their ignorance I just go to that place where I'm not subjected to it.

So, Moonlight, you should just relax, go back and play games and ignore all the passive/complacent sexism and pandering in games... oh... wait.

The problem!

The problem here is that the issues she has with gaming are always there when she wants to game. Her escapism is just another stage for the problem. She likes to play games, as much as I do, but unlike me she can't avoid the problems she's having by escaping to virtuality, since the problem seems even more prolific there then it does in reality.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist in reality. There is notable "concentration" of the worst attributes of society in the gaming scene. It's like looking through a spy glass and seeing a world where the social movements of the last century are still in their infancy.

 

[Kragg]

At least people would just let me be a gamer and enjoy the games I have loved for 26 years instead of assuming I'm some sort of attention seeking whore.

except they do, noone gives 2 craps if you have a penis or a vagina,

Have you been here the past few weeks.

Have you seen the videos, the comments, the anger, the websites.

People most certainly do care.

I'm starting to wonder how many people actually care, and how much of it is the hype.

I feel sorry for Moonlight :/

other side of the spectrum, the white knight guy gamer, defender of all women or the grey knight defender of all women because boobies ! I am sure those stereotypes exist as well (imade those terms up btw)

Congratulations on proving her point.

If she was a male, would yuo have said "Oh god, another attention seeking male gamer?"

No, I sincerely doubt it. It's actually this kind of attitude that is in the way of full equality more than anything else, the idea that a point is more or less valid based upon who is saying it, as opposed to the quality of the point itself.

That said, I do not agree with all of the points made in the opening post.

While I do agree that the attitude that gaming 'belongs to men' is absolutely ridiculous, I do not think that there is anything wrong with game developers doing what they want with their own games, regardless of how seemingly sexist or stupid they are. People have the right to dislike it, to complain or to boycott it, but to be honest, the same argument can be used that the OP is using against people in this thread: "If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to play it".

I might have yes, as I said before though, I know she isn't that type of person, just acting out like one now, for some reason. If anything if she was a guy complaining, most people would be less understanding. Though I get this is a fictional example.

This topic is about sexism at its core, not sexism in gaming, and you wont find alot of people here that would come out and state that they are. So all this topic is going to accomplish is alot of grouphugging and patting each other on the back, but it would be so transparent that you might aswell be better of with a giftopic then.

 

[Kragg]

Yeah, when people offend me with their ignorance I just go to that place where I'm not subjected to it.

So, Moonlight, you should just relax, go back and play games and ignore all the passive/complacent sexism and pandering in games... oh... wait.

The problem!

The problem here is that the issues she has with gaming are always there when she wants to game. Her escapism is just another stage for the problem. She likes to play games, as much as I do, but unlike me she can't avoid the problems she's having by escaping to virtuality, since the problem seems even more prolific there then it does in reality.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist in reality. There is notable "concentration" of the worst attributes of society in the gaming scene. It's like looking through a spy glass and seeing a world where the social movements of the last century are still in their infancy.

I see what you are saying here, why does it have to be so heavy, why take things so serious all the time.

When I have a meal I don't break down into tears because someone somewhere is starving.

just relax and play games people, it is not that difficult

 

[Vault101]

Congratulations on proving her point.

If she was a male, would yuo have said "Oh god, another attention seeking male gamer?"

No, I sincerely doubt it. It's actually this kind of attitude that is in the way of full equality more than anything else, the idea that a point is more or less valid based upon who is saying it, as opposed to the quality of the point itself.

That said, I do not agree with all of the points made in the opening post.

While I do agree that the attitude that gaming 'belongs to men' is absolutely ridiculous, I do not think that there is anything wrong with game developers doing what they want with their own games, regardless of how seemingly sexist or stupid they are.

People have the right to dislike it, to complain or to boycott it, but to be honest, the same argument can be used that the OP is using against people in this thread: "If you don't like it, nobody is forcing you to play it". I dislike games that have women in skimpy outfits for the sake of it, and so I avoid them, it's that simple.

I also despise the argument that the industry "needs" more women, because that line of argument is what leads to "forced equality" when it comes to recruiting.

true....but that said I think it shouldn't be so "off-putting" or even intimidating for a woman to consider the Idea..I don;t think you nesscaryly "need more women" for that

[quote/]A company has 10 spaces that needs filling, they have 30 applicants of mixed race and gender and varying abilities, so whom should they pick?

The most talented and hard working is the obvious answer, but in a lot of cases they pick the demographic that they are lacking. More men than women? Make sure to pick a woman then. Too many Africans, but no Asians? Okay we need more Asians to make things equal.

The only reason that it should be an issue that there are more men than women in the industry, is if women are deliberately being overlooked in favour of men, despite having superior talent and work ethics.[/quote]

I kind of have mixed feelings on "positive discrimination"

but anyway...

[small/]what I really wanted to say was my Motoko is better XD[/small]

 

[Legion]

You know, the more I read these articles and posts about the debate about sexism in gaming the more I think that they all miss the key point about what the underlying issue is under the sexism and that is to a lot of men who play video games or any other 'nerdy' hobby such as Wargaming, Tabletop Roleplaying and so on you will always be the enemy. Now I have no idea how long each and every individual female gamer has been playing games for but I think it's more than safe to assume that in the past the vast majority of gamers were male. These men held an unusual hobby in a different time and may have been persecuted for it, maybe directly by bullies or authrotiy figures or maybe indirectly i.e. people being unwilling to socalise with them. I can't count the number of times I was told to quit playing with toys because I collected a Warhammer army or threw funny shaped dice around and pretended I was a Dwarf.

However, times change and these hobbies become more accessible and diverse as time goes by and I am all for that but you have to remember that there will always be a rearguard whose resentment now leaves them unable to see you as anything but the girl who found their interest in Gundam silly or whatever. I know from experience that a lot of male gamers see female gamers as 'fairweather fans' at best, now of course this isn't fair and isn't even completely accurate but all they see when they read articles and posts such as this is 'I wasn't here when x was in its infancy but now that I'm here I'm going to tell you all how this should be done,' and that in itself is the crux of the issue.

Also there are some people who will always just be dicks and they're the other group in this issue.

An excellent point, and definitely one I can relate to. Hell, my sister was talking about her and her boyfriend playing COD with some of their friends, and she was talking about how bad she was at it. She finishes off her comment with: "But girls don't waste their time playing games long enough to get good at them".

true....but that said I think it shouldn't be so "off-putting" or even intimidating for a woman to consider the Idea..I don;t think you nesscaryly "need more women" for that

I agree, it really shouldn't be so difficult or awkward for a woman to want to get into the game industry, but I am not sure it's down to sexism, as much as it is people being slow to accept change of any kind.

Just look at how far we are coming in society in other areas. When I was a boy, a guy wearing a pink shirt was mocked and accused of being gay. Yet now, not only is it common for men of all sexual orientations to wear them, it is considered completely wrong by society to think that homosexuality is wrong or something to judge people based upon their clothing (In the UK at least).

Yes, there are issues when it comes to gender equality in gaming, but like with all things, they will change for the better over time, and the more girls there are that start to enjoy gaming, the quicker it'll start moving towards how it should be.

 

[Vault101]

You know, the more I read these articles and posts about the debate about sexism in gaming the more I think that they all miss the key point about what the underlying issue is under the sexism and that is to a lot of men who play video games or any other 'nerdy' hobby such as Wargaming, Tabletop Roleplaying and so on you will always be the enemy. Now I have no idea how long each and every individual female gamer has been playing games for but I think it's more than safe to assume that in the past the vast majority of gamers were male. These men held an unusual hobby in a different time and may have been persecuted for it, maybe directly by bullies or authrotiy figures or maybe indirectly i.e. people being unwilling to socalise with them. I can't count the number of times I was told to quit playing with toys because I collected a Warhammer army or threw funny shaped dice around and pretended I was a Dwarf.
.

I think its unfair to assume that even back then the were no females (ok I know thats not ehat your saying) thye did exist though...they had too

now heres a question..would this particular group have such a problem if it were a guy "just getting into it?"

seriously though...this may sound harsh of me but anyone with that attitude can go fuck themselfs....lifes to short for that kind of childish bullshit

 

[Thistlehart]

Hmmm... I've not much to add beyond agreeing that much of the butthurt that comes of this topic arises from misunderstanding that leads to a defensive position and the disingenuous representation that is derived therefrom.

Aside from that, I think I can cheer you up with two little birds nesting together.

Spoiler: Smile smile smile.

 

[gh0ti]

Unfortunately, attitudes take a long time to change and a small minority of idiots can ruin the image of ean entire community very easily. Gaming is a relatively new community (I mean on the grand scale) and mass female involvement is pretty recent. I know, there have been girl gamers as long as there have been games, but even today, the general population would view it as a predominantly male pursuit.

I think that 90% of male gamers would have no problem playing alongside women or having them present in a social gaming environment. However, there is also a sensitivity issue. Men, when they are with other men, will make sexist jokes, derogatory comments towards women and so forth. These are usually tongue-in-cheek and not really intended to upset or belittle women, it's just a social exercise. Women do the same to men all of the time. Men do not treat women like other men. Women do not treat men as other women. That's a fact of nature as much as anything else and there are some behaviours that will ruffle the feathers of the opposite sex that are an inherent part of some social exchanges.

And you seem to dismiss the point that games are predominantly made for men, by men. Certainly they should not be anti-female, and when they are, the community generally lambasts them for it (see Duke Nukem Forever). But expecting them to try to appeal equally to both genders is completely unfair. Express your opinion by all means - I've been known to complain about how female-friendly most TV is at present.

As for the scantily-clad female thing - I just don't see the issue. Games are actually pretty conservative on the whole when it comes to nudity, compared with society at large. This summer, I've seen more young women wearing hot pants and navel-exposing vests walking down the street than I have in video games. And presumably you are buying those video games in any case? Where is the incentive for developers to start dressing their female characters more modestly if the people it offends are handing over their cash in any case? All doing so would achieve is reduce their game's ability to catch the eye of their core market. I highly doubt it would significantly increase female game sales.

 

[Zeckt]

I'm actually quite sick of this whole issue with women in gaming, the problem I see is everytime women are depicted in video games there always seems to be an uproar that is just unfair, like Lara in the new tomb raider game with the rape attempt or the nun killing in hitman that only exist because women are involved and I am quite sick of hearing about these things.

Why is it so wrong for female assassin's in disguise to be killed in an over the top fashion? Did anyone ever care about all the men dying in ridiculous ways in Bulletstorm? Did any guys complain about Nathan Drake suffering in the desert in Uncharted 3? so why Lara? No wonder no dev wants to develop female characters because they are always put under a magnifying glass by radical feminists and white knights that are okay with men being killed or threatened but not their gender, as if their sex is better. Every single thing wrong with a female character is blown WAY out of proportion. If women want to be taken seriously in gaming they need to stop arguing over EVERY. LITTLE. THING. about every female character in games as if every single one has to be a perfect paragon fighting for independence and has to go out of her way to be better then every single male character in the game.

My point is women have to learn that female characters should have flaws too and be put in difficult situations and not get up in arms when they are sometimes killed or they will never, ever be taken seriously in our hobby. The whole Lara and Nun situation should of NEVER happened and it only worsens things for everybody.

Also, someone else summed another point up quite nicely in that it's as if when women are upset about something in gaming they get together in a threatening group and go "WOMEN ARE ANGRY AT YOUR HOBBY AND WANT WANT WANT" always involving their gender first and hobby second so people will defend their hobby from the threatening women rather then discussing the issue with fellow hobbyists. They really SHOULD try getting their points across as hobbyists first and as women secondly. Till they do that they are enemies angry at gaming and in my opinion don't even deserve to be viewed as anything but an angry self entitled and demanding group standing on the faces of men digging their heels in their faces.

 

[Ragsnstitches]

Yeah, when people offend me with their ignorance I just go to that place where I'm not subjected to it.

So, Moonlight, you should just relax, go back and play games and ignore all the passive/complacent sexism and pandering in games... oh... wait.

The problem!

The problem here is that the issues she has with gaming are always there when she wants to game. Her escapism is just another stage for the problem. She likes to play games, as much as I do, but unlike me she can't avoid the problems she's having by escaping to virtuality, since the problem seems even more prolific there then it does in reality.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist in reality. There is notable "concentration" of the worst attributes of society in the gaming scene. It's like looking through a spy glass and seeing a world where the social movements of the last century are still in their infancy.

I see what you are saying here, why does it have to be so heavy, why take things so serious all the time.

When I have a meal I don't break down into tears because someone somewhere is starving.

just relax and play games people, it is not that difficult

Well I imagine Moonlight started off taking it in her stride... but after 25+ years of gaming, she probably lost patience with it. I doubt she takes it seriously ALL the time, cause frankly, I get weary on these topics myself and the thought of being submersed in it is terrifying.

But this is a reality she faces and wants changed, a reality that is intertwined with her primary mode of escapism, gaming. Take the Metroid Other M fiasco. Imagine being a fan of that series, a fan of Samus as a character (the cypher), but are suddenly treated to the most pathetic excuse of a hero, because shes a woman.

For someone like Moonlight, where being a fan of the series (not sure if she is, just an example) means she would have bought it because its Metroid (how bad could it be), only to be treated to the most horrific dethroning of a pivotal figure in gaming. Moonlight is subjected to the notion of her much loved character becoming a weak and emotional damsel, despite a history of being the complete opposite... all in the name of giving her a "personality".

As a person who desires to work in the game industry at some point in his career, these are things I focus on keenly. Whenever I see a shoehorned piece of fanservice or a shallow obligatory love interest broad in a game, all I can think of is "Lazy Writing". I don't feel pandered to, I don't feel like I'm being treated to some cheese... I feel like someone thinks very little of me.

Eh... went off on a tangent there. No one is 100% serious ALL the time. It would drive a person insane. Moonlight gets her kicks in other games, games that avoid the traps that generate these issues. But the issues are there, and for someone as passionate as her (or myself), Ignoring them altogether just isn't in the cards.

As Jim mentioned this week too, the only way to effectively get change is to ***** and whine about it. Personally I hope to have a more direct hand in this change if my future plans work out, but for now, I will ***** and whine too.

 

[TheScottishFella]

Right I'm just going to fire this off quickly, even though some are not mentioned in the article.

I have no problem with girls in gaming, if you can make a good exhilarating game (AKA Kim Swift) I will respect you as much as I respect any other developer, I might find you attractive, but hey I'm a teenager.

Girl Gamers. Awesome.

Booth Babes, I actually don't quite understand the sex appeal of booth babes in an honest opinion. I watch E3 videos for the GAMES not for some girls. If I want to find girls, there's real life and the internet.

I will agree with some other people, these threads are getting a bit annoying. You won't convert someone into agreeing with you if they haven't in the past. I think people need to stop remaking threads and actually get together and prove there are girl gamers. Famous people, non famous people etc. Yeah it's a stretch but rehashing threads is not a good idea.

I also understand stigma, sometimes being secretive of yourself because you don't want to tell others who you really are since there is still stigma associated with girl gamers. Go to those who understand and ignore those who don't, it's like nerds in school either it will end or it won't.

Bit of a ramble sorry.