I'm super depressed about sexism in gaming...

[Spirit356]

You know, the more I read these articles and posts about the debate about sexism in gaming the more I think that they all miss the key point about what the underlying issue is under the sexism and that is to a lot of men who play video games or any other 'nerdy' hobby such as Wargaming, Tabletop Roleplaying and so on you will always be the enemy. Now I have no idea how long each and every individual female gamer has been playing games for but I think it's more than safe to assume that in the past the vast majority of gamers were male. These men held an unusual hobby in a different time and may have been persecuted for it, maybe directly by bullies or authrotiy figures or maybe indirectly i.e. people being unwilling to socalise with them. I can't count the number of times I was told to quit playing with toys because I collected a Warhammer army or threw funny shaped dice around and pretended I was a Dwarf.
.

I think its unfair to assume that even back then the were no females (ok I know thats not ehat your saying) thye did exist though...they had too

now heres a question..would this particular group have such a problem if it were a guy "just getting into it?"

seriously though...this may sound harsh of me but anyone with that attitude can go fuck themselfs....lifes to short for that kind of childish bullshit

Well of course women existed back in those days but they weren't even close to the numbers of female gamers there are now. Also to answer your question yes, generally that group dislike anyone new who starts and creates classifications as to why they suck e.g. 'They have a Space Marine army','They play D&D4e','They haven't played x game in the series and so have missed out on y'. Of course their bile is strongest against women for the resentment and emotional hang-ups I tried to explain.

 

[Kragg]

Yeah, when people offend me with their ignorance I just go to that place where I'm not subjected to it.

So, Moonlight, you should just relax, go back and play games and ignore all the passive/complacent sexism and pandering in games... oh... wait.

The problem!

The problem here is that the issues she has with gaming are always there when she wants to game. Her escapism is just another stage for the problem. She likes to play games, as much as I do, but unlike me she can't avoid the problems she's having by escaping to virtuality, since the problem seems even more prolific there then it does in reality.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm not saying sexism doesn't exist in reality. There is notable "concentration" of the worst attributes of society in the gaming scene. It's like looking through a spy glass and seeing a world where the social movements of the last century are still in their infancy.

I see what you are saying here, why does it have to be so heavy, why take things so serious all the time.

When I have a meal I don't break down into tears because someone somewhere is starving.

just relax and play games people, it is not that difficult

Well I imagine Moonlight started off taking it in her stride... but after 25+ years of gaming, she probably lost patience with it. I doubt she takes it seriously ALL the time, cause frankly, I get weary on these topics myself and the thought of being submersed in it is terrifying.

But this is a reality she faces and wants changed, a reality that is intertwined with her primary mode of escapism, gaming. Take the Metroid Other M fiasco. Imagine being a fan of that series, a fan of Samus as a character (the cypher), but are suddenly treated to the most pathetic excuse of a hero, because shes a woman.

For someone like Moonlight, where being a fan of the series (not sure if she is, just an example) means she would have bought it because its Metroid (how bad could it be), only to be treated to the most horrific dethroning of a pivotal figure in gaming. Moonlight is subjected to the notion of her much loved character becoming a weak and emotional damsel, despite a history of being the complete opposite... all in the name of giving her a "personality".

As a person who desires to work in the game industry at some point in his career, these are things I focus on keenly. Whenever I see a shoehorned piece of fanservice or a shallow obligatory love interest broad in a game, all I can think of is "Lazy Writing". I don't feel pandered to, I don't feel like I'm being treated to some cheese... I feel like someone thinks very little of me.

Eh... went off on a tangent there. No one is 100% serious ALL the time. It would drive a person insane. Moonlight gets her kicks in other games, games that avoid the traps that generate these issues. But the issues are there, and for someone as passionate as her (or myself), Ignoring them altogether just isn't in the cards.

As Jim mentioned this week too, the only way to effectively get change is to ***** and whine about it. Personally I hope to have a more direct hand in this change if my future plans work out, but for now, I will ***** and whine too.

I for one am rooting for you to get into gaming and do change stuff, which I prefer over the other ways to get change

 

[AngelBlackChaos]

snip

I'm not depressed about video games I'm depressed about the attitude towards my gender. Sometimes I think it would be easier to be a guy.

As I tried to explain above, a lot of the attitude stems from the unified "women for the change of gamer culture" approach which seems to be perceived by the gamer community. (I'm unsure if such a thing really is true, since if it was, there wouldn't be quite as many women gamers, as stated above)




Anyways, being a guy wouldn't be any easier I don't think, that way you'd be subjected to all the crap and instead of having an army of white knights and others fighting for you people would belittle you for minding such treatment on top of treating you like crap.

Ok. Army of white knights and others fighting for me? Where?

I have maybe had 3 guys defend me throughout my multiplayer career, and it wasn't "white knighting" it was a guy repeatedly tried to kick me in a match just because I was a girl, saying I would make them lose. Funny, since he had the lowest amount of kills, and highest amount of deaths. I was the second rated player with the second highest amount of kills. I was really bringing them down. One guy defended me there.

The other two defended me when it was their friend being a drunk prick, talking about my sexual regions while we were playing a game. They said simply, that it was ridiculous, I wasn't doing anything, lets just shut up and game. After that, I just stopped using voice chat, generally had my gamertag to something ambiguous, and refused to acknowledge what sex I was. You don't see that 40 percent?

Why would we want to be seen? To be harrassed yet again? For someone to say we aren't good enough to play? For someone to send us yet another threatening message?

I'm only now letting myself even show myself as female playing games. I'm dealing with the harassment, the bullying, the crude comments, hoping if enough of us do, when my 10 year old cousin wants to start playing more than just single player, she won't HAVE to ever hear what I have heard. Felt the anger, hurt and disgust that I have. I want her to feel welcome in a community that is awesome and supportive.

 

[NoeL]

There's a whole arse hole culture out there that won't let anyone just be a gamer.

I think this is the real problem - the arsehole epidemic, not just in "gaming culture", but everywhere, is out of control. It's so bad I've given up on online multiplayer altogether, and given that's the trend gaming finds itself at the moment, I'm now on the fringe of "gaming culture". Some of the comments in this thread, notably from ElPatron and Kragg, have frankly been disgusting. I'm sure it's how moderate Christians feel about all the redneck fundamentalist bigots; it's repugnant and reflects poorly on the culture as a whole.

As Zantos said, women are (generally) only targeted because these low-lives are too lazy/stupid to find a less obvious target. In my opinion the sexism in the gaming community has the exact same underlying cause that hacking and griefing has: a significant percentage of people are sadistic arseholes. The only reason it SEEMS like gaming culture is disproportionately full of arsehole has, I believe, more to do with the disproportionate amount of time the community is actively socialising compared to other groups. If book club members actively socialised to the degree gamers do I predict you'd see the same problem with arseholes (and, like gaming, it would almost exclusively come from immature little shithead boys). EDIT: That's not to say girls aren't arseholes - in fact in many communities they're BIGGER arseholes than guys. If you take a look at the lolita fashion community, for example, about 90% of it is girls calling each other fat/ugly/poor. It's one of the few communities I find LESS inviting than the gaming community (I'm not a lolita, but my gf is).


But yeah, that's my two cents. I think the sexualisation of women in gaming media is wholly separate from the issue of misogyny in the gaming culture, the former being due to gender disparity amongst developers (men love tits - deal with it) which can be mitigated by getting more girls in the dev scene, the latter being due to humanity's unfortunate tendency to produce arseholes that thrive on the misery of others, and can only somewhat be mitigated by extensive disciplinary measures that no one really wants to see, and the savvy arseholes will find workarounds regardless. They'll grow out of it eventually, but in the meantime I don't think many people would object to you finding out where they live and kicking the shit out of them... just make sure they understand it was because of their antisocial behaviour. They'll thank you when they're older.

Have fun figuring out what, if any of that, was sarcasm.

 

[Phasmal]

Snip

I feel exactly the same.

There is a massive attitude of `Put up and shut up` towards female gamers (which you can see clearly right here).

I prefer to think of it this way- nobody can doubt how much I love games. Because even putting up with all the crap I get I'm still not going anywhere.

Anyways, being a guy wouldn't be any easier I don't think, that way you'd be subjected to all the crap and instead of having an army of white knights and others fighting for you people would belittle you for minding such treatment on top of treating you like crap.

Actually, (having spent time `being a guy` online), it's easy as shit. I've never had people `white knighting` for me when I've been harrassed for being a woman. The only person who gets told to shut up is me when that happens. Being a dude is fucking easy. Not only do you not get harrassed as much (and certainly there isn't the same amount of hate behind the harrassment), you actually get more credit for the things you do.
I've considered going back to being a guy online because of how easy it is.

 

[WoW Killer]

This thread needs less words and more kittens:

Spoiler: Click for Cuteness

 

[Vault101]

I see what you are saying here, why does it have to be so heavy, why take things so serious all the time.

When I have a meal I don't break down into tears because someone somewhere is starving.

just relax and play games people, it is not that difficult

THIS right here is part of the problem

you don't ignore problems to make them go away....granted you cant get upset over everything and have to pick your battles

but if something does bother me I wont ignore it (thankfully its more the community than the games themselves)

 

[Rack]

In other words you're sick of idiots.

...that's not going to get better in a hurry.

 

[Easton Dark]

Ahah! - but I was thinking more 'off the top of your head' kinda thing, like not something you have to google. It's good to know though, I will be seeing what Tiniest Shark (great name!) have come up with or are working on.

I can't name even any male developers off the top of my head. I can name you PR people, most of whom are male. You don't really hear from the developers all that much.

 

[MetalMagpie]

it's about the simple attitude some guys have towards women playing video games.

I am a woman. Unrelated: I also play video games. I have done for some time.

I have never experienced a single problem with this. I've never had a sexist slur thrown at me online. I've never been told that I "play games for the attention". I've never had someone even express surprise when they find out I play video games. (Hell, why would they be surprised? Video games are now a bigger industry than films. Hardly a niche pastime!)

Where are these guys? Is this an American thing? Can you link me to any blog posts expressing the view that women shouldn't play video games (with comments showing support)?

There are always going to be a few idiots around. (Like those religious groups who insist rock music is a tool of the devil.) But if their support is minimal, then they should just be ignored.

 

[In Search of Username]

Go play Beyond Good and Evil to cheer yourself up!

 

[surg3n]

Ahah! - but I was thinking more 'off the top of your head' kinda thing, like not something you have to google. It's good to know though, I will be seeing what Tiniest Shark (great name!) have come up with or are working on.

I can't name even any male developers off the top of my head. I can name you PR people, most of whom are male. You don't really hear from the developers all that much.

Really? - what about Notch, or Edmund McMillan?. I know what you mean though, it seems that PR people get all the coverage, and programmers and even artists are having to step back a bit. That's why I mentioned indi companies and developers, they seem to show themselves more readily and more honestly.

The reason I asked that question though, is because I know a few female developers, and none of them really stuck it - they all found something else to do. I even know a hermaphrodite programmer, but they've produced a few games... not great games, but decent solo efforts.
Exposing my underbelly here, but maybe there's a lot to be said for programmers having the male geek gene.

 

[Ninjamedic]

Where are these guys? Is this an American thing? Can you link me to any blog posts expressing the view that women shouldn't play video games (with comments showing support)?

Its the new thing on the forums you see. With EA bashing on the way out the forums are taking to bash developers for saying anything that can be misinterpreted or exaggerated.

I am really sick of the "Misogyny is inherent to the Gaming Industry" type of bitching, all it is doing going to do is put developers under even more pressure and restrict them even further.

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

I believe the phrase is "preaching to the choir".

I mean cmon i might as well go to R and P and start going on about how great secularism is. We all know it is. We all want women to be equally represented. You know what fuck it have my gorram last post on this:

"Im an equalist. Or whatever. I think everyone deserves basic equal human rights because for fucks sake people everyone fucking thinks this and if anyone thinks you deserve to be treated worse or better based on stupid things like race, gender or pubic hair colour that person tends to be a cretin and we all fucking know this. Seriously. Im tired of this discussion. Vitrol and hatred on a scale ive never seen come wheeling out over definitions and technicalities and im tired. Who cares. Seriously. Who cares about those stupid things when we obviously all agree on the amazingly obvious conclusion that this shit sucks utter ass."

We all agree wand understand that what you are saying is true. Yeah it sucks. Its sad. Im sad there's famine in africa and thousands of people are HIV positive. Its a fact of reality. Its one i can fight every gorram step of my life but it isnt one worth pointing out to people who already appreciate that its an issue: "Did you know AIDS is super bad?". Yeah we did. No shit. Gener roles for women are crap. The fact we are talking about "women gamers" in a way different from "blue eyed gamers" is a sorry state as it is. Its a non-topic.

 

[dimensional]

I still dont see the problem if you dont like something dont play it if you do do play it, complaining about the portrayal of some women in games just strikes me as odd I mean fine go ahead but getting depressed over it is a bit much, same with guys complaining about females playing games because its their hobby ahahaha yeah ok let them complain the vast majority dont care about them either.

Honestly this seems to be blown out of all proportion I know quite a few girl gamers and many more guy gamers and these issues just dont come up it seems its only an issue with the minority. If it bothers you so much do something about it and I dont mean whinge and moan sure make yourself heard (and believe me everyone on here has heard by now many mnay times) but dont whine on and on that is just irritating and pointless I mean actually do something i.e just play games that dont offend you (vote with your wallet) or even actively get involved in the industry and try and change it if you are that passionate about it.

If you still play games that have these issues because you like the actual game well thats like saying yeah I like cake but I dont like it making me fat make less fattening cake because I dont want to stop eating it or try anything different well I want it different but the same.

All things change eventually you just have to be patient with a a stronger female market there will be a better balance of games as they try and cater to them to maximise their sales but if these girl gamers are buying their games anyway well you may as well continue making them. I do believe games will diversify more though because of this changing demographic. Change dosent usually happen quickly its a slow process demanding tommorow now wont make it happen any quicker.

I also like how Soul Calibur is singled out in these threads when really they mean Ivy oh and you can change her costume as well to something that dosent offend your sensibilities if you want which it seems lots do so soul calibur V offers you more costumes than most other games combined knock yourselves out.

 

[Toilet]

What I don't like is that when men create their own space where they can be away from women there is an immediate uproar. Some dudes just want an area or an activity where there is no women not for sexist reasons but for their own well being because everyone needs a break from the opposite gender. Women have their own safe spaces and their own activities so why cant we?

I just don't like how we must accommodate women for everything; I want a mens only video game club where I can relax, make crude comments and rape jokes, play video games and drink with other dudes. Some men aren't comfortable around women; they can suffer from anxiety, turn into competitive assholes trying to impress the girl or whiteknights.

Just don't make a big deal out of it everyone can play games.

 

[Xaio30]

Please add your own thoughts or post pictures of spider-man and ponies to cheer me up, either works fine.

About the "Geek Girl Con". I really don't think it's a step in the right direction to make separate conventions for either gender. It might be a necessity today, but should not be needed in the long run. Would you agree?

Spoiler: Also, since you asked so nicely;