I'm super depressed about sexism in gaming...

[Easton Dark]

Sorry if I haven't answered people I stopped posting because I thought it was a non issue and everyone was saying the thread was pointless...

Aw cmon, talk to me

Spoiler: (even Momo talks)

You seemed fine with it the last few days. What happened to make you so depressed?

TBH I think it's just been building up.

Sounds like you need a good time. How about you help me with MvM? I've gotten scrubs doing the advanced missions not knowing what to do, and it's irritating me.

 

[Ninjamedic]

snip

If they say something sexist then it doesn't really matter if they are mother Teresa irl does it? They were still sexist...

Even if they apologise? Even if they attempt to redeem themselves? Or is the label of sexism permanent?

 

[RubyT]

If they say something sexist then it doesn't really matter if they are mother Teresa irl does it? They were still sexist...

If I say "Bonjour", am I French?

People can say sexist things without being sexist. Especially when the line at which sexism starts gets skewed constantly.

One can be saying something sarcastic, absent-minded, humorously. It can be misunderstood, taken out of context or framed badly (often with that intent). There's lots of ways person A can say something that person B find sexist without person A being sexist.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

If they say something sexist then it doesn't really matter if they are mother Teresa irl does it? They were still sexist...

Even if they apologise? Even if they attempt to redeem themselves? Or is the label of sexism permanent?

of course not. If they apologise or explain why that's not what they mean it's fine by me.

What worries me sometimes is that some of you guys see this as an attack, it isn't. Mostly it was just me venting about this stuff getting on top of me and why I think the main arguments that people come up against female gamers are bogus.

 

[DevilWithaHalo]

And this is fair as well. It isn't limited to gamers, nor is it exclusively a gamer problem. Asshats who act out their sexism in online gaming communities, however, give gamers in general a bad name, and when you have an industry that panders to males (unintentionally or not) with hypersexualized or objectified women (Ivy from Soul Caliber is an oft-quoted example) it reinforces sexist views by tying females in games to their sexuality even when the situation doesn't call for sexuality in any regard.

Not to butt in on your conversation (because I?ve been enjoying the discussion you two have been having), but I felt you bring up a very interesting idea without possibly realizing it. The examples that feminists provide to prove the point that the objectification of women in games is harming all women are fairly consistent. Case in point, a lot of people have used Ivy from Soul Caliber as an example of this idea. The issue that is raised of course is that it isn?t appropriate to the genre, when it ignores what might be appropriate to the character. They seem to take issue with this single character, autonomous from the environment she finds herself in and the possibility of her own volitions.

Let?s continue to use Soul Caliber as the basis for this particular viewpoint. (Forgive me if my numbers are slightly off, I?m not intimately familiar with the game) There are about 22 characters in Soul Caliber V. And roughly 10 of them are female. So 1 out of 10 women is seen as overly sexualized to pander to male-centric sexuality. And this is a problem? We don?t even accept the possibility of the idea that perhaps her body is simply a result of a 10% genetic chance while her clothing is of her own design. Are we so truly repressed as a society we see 10% as an attack on the entire gender?

Using another example, I?ve seen where Zhang He from Dynasty Warriors is sometimes used to bemoan the atrocious representation of homosexuality within gaming. He?s 1 character, among 60 other characters.

It?s like calling Penny from The Big Bang Theory damaging to women as a whole because this specific character happens to be a very simply minded Nebraskan woman.

In a general sense, these specific and statistically insignificant examples of character archetypes are often misrepresented as systemic sexism inherent in the system. But what happens if you raise this point? I?ll give you two guesses.

 

[itsthesheppy]

-snip-

Hey there. Just wanted to pop in here and give you props. There are lots of people who have a real and vested interest in not seeing the status quo get shaken up. The biggest problem about a majority that has everything catered to it is that it doesn't see the problems those on the fringes see. A part of them probably won't ever really be able to get it. Like, take me for example. I can look at some regions of the world and say "Oh, that's horrible" but I'll never get it in the way they do, because at the end of the day I live a nice, cushy life.

Many will speak up and tell you that your feelings are wrong, but that's because your feelings challenge their mental image that everything is fine and no changes are needed; that they may not be in the right about everything; that maybe things really have been catered to them, for them, exclusively, and that maybe that's not fair. They feel like if they admit that then they will have done something wrong, but they don't feel like they did something wrong so it must be that you're wrong.

The thing is, the only thing wrong is our culture, and the only way the privileged can be in the wrong is not in acknowledging their privilege. Your feels are your own and none can tell you that they are wrong or bad or incorrect. They are what they are.

So if anyone jumps down your throat, remember; it's about them, not you. They feel threatened, because they know they've been catered to and members of the privileged group. They maybe don't understand that that in itself doesn't make a person less good, and they're just reacting as if they're under attack; defensively.

I don't have a smashing closer for this little essay. Just wanted to say, don't let anyone shout you down. The zeitgeist moves by baby steps and it's up to all of us to give it a tiny push.

 

[astrav1]

How sickeningly generic, I'm really glad someone is complaining about something that is equivalent to a brony whinging about being made fun of. Not a useless thread at all.

 

[Ninjamedic]

of course not. If they apologise or explain why that's not what they mean it's fine by me.

Okay then, that's perfectly reasonable.

I've just seen people writing off developers for very overblown reasons ("Girlfriend Mode" anyone?) and using their misinterpreted comments as evidence for saying there is an inherent misogyny in the games industry, throwing out the whole context along with the apologies of the supposed offenders and the general negative reaction to said comments by people of both genders.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

I think all of the women except one are dressed provocatively in soul calibur and even then the one exception is often posed in boobs and butt poses.

As for you pondering of why this issue has come up recently I think it's becuase of the rise in online gaming and the increase in graphical quality...and jiggle physics

Also this is how Sophitia was dressed in the first Soul Calibur game I played.

This is how she is portrayed now.

Even rooster teeth revealed how this clothing was bloody silly to fight in resulting in a 'bashful panda' style where the woman would fight with her elbows on top of her boobs as her clothes fell off. (Also note the first picture she looks determined and competent and in the second one she looks like she is going to pee herself and she just picked up the sword because it was laying around the house .) Surely you can see why I'm annoyed at the change in her portrayal.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

of course not. If they apologise or explain why that's not what they mean it's fine by me.

Okay then, that's perfectly reasonable.

I've just seen people writing off developers for very overblown reasons ("Girlfriend Mode" anyone?) and using their misinterpreted comments as evidence for saying there is an inherent misogyny in the games industry, throwing out the whole context along with the apologies of the supposed offenders and the general negative reaction to said comments by people of both genders.

Actually I was the first one in the escapist news thread who went to check twitter and saw that they had apologised and that the media were blowing it out of proportion to get hits (The guy had actually just given a anecdote about his own girlfriend). Yeah I would have been annoyed if it was called 'Girlfriend mode' on a personal level but the fact is it wasn't and I'm still going to buy borderlands 2 and play the crap out of it with mates.

 

[Kpt._Rob]

I don't get something. If forty-something percent of videogame players are female, doesn't that tell you that gaming attracts women without needing to change?

The whole "women are put off by X" argument is a "straw woman". You can't speak for all women in the world, women enjoy gaming, and people who don't like what videogames show (man or woman) could please take a hike?

Also, this thread again?

You do know that you can love something, and still think that it could be changed for the better. Imagine if everyone who made hamburgers insisted in putting horseradish sauce on all burgers. Most of us wouldn't be very thrilled with that, but I imagine that we'd just wipe the horseradish off before eating our burgers, and put up with the minor nuisance. But we'd also probably complain, and rightly so. There's no reason people couldn't serve burgers without the horseradish and burgers with.

Only here it's video games instead of burgers, and derogatory sexist archetypes instead of horseradish. Video games have features that appeal to everyone, but unfortunately a large portion of them come with other features many people (especially those who are concerned with gender issues) find off-putting. Sure there are some games that stand as exceptions, but they are just that... exceptions. I understand why a large portion of the people who play video games, both men and women, are beginning to find the main industry trends rather concerning and archaic.

And of course the OP isn't speaking for all women in the world. But she is speaking for herself (and speaking an opinion which is shared by many people of both genders), she has every right to do so, and she need not take a hike (unless she wants to, as a nice hike can be pleasant from time to time, especially with the weather like it has been). You can say that the video game industry could use some improvement, and still love playing video games regardless. There is absolutely no reason for which gameplay and sexism need go hand in hand, and there's no reason you can't love one without loving the other.

 

[anthony87]

snip

Well she's gotten much older and had two kids between the two pics so maybe she just filled out naturally?

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

Well she's gotten much older and had two kids between the two pics so maybe she just filled out naturally?

hmmm....

That did kind of make me chuckle lol.

 

[Ninjamedic]

Actually I was the first one in the escapist news thread who went to check twitter and saw that they had apologised and that the media were blowing it out of proportion to get hits (The guys had actually given a anecdote about his own girlfriend).

The cynic in me says this will become the next bandwagon, I'm just hoping everyone will try to stop falling into the "gender war" shouting matches again.

Yeah I would have been annoyed if it was called 'Girlfriend mode' on a personal level but the fact is it wasn't and I;m still going to buy borderlands 2 and play the crap out of it.

Amen to that.

A wimoweh, a wimoweh.........

 

[Tsun Tzu]

AAAAAAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHH!

Spoiler

In all seriousness, the term "sexist" is bandied about far too much for my personal comfort.

Also, I'm all for females in games being treated equally. I'm all for them being treated equally in the real world too.

With that said, until the day where we all become an androgynous mass of grey skinned Slender Man-esque figures there will be one sort of inequality or another. True equality isn't going to happen in our or our children's lifetimes. The best we can hope for is a society where we're as equal as humanly possible.

As for the OP: I enjoy the outfits. They're quite nice to look at. I don't, however, lose respect for women every time Ivy shakes her ass at the camera. There are other characters in the SC line-up, female mind, that are much more conservatively dressed and equally badass when flinging their male compatriots across the ring via whirling blades/blunt objects/fists of death.

I've certainly seen guys in games behave like total idiots when a female enters the game...I was guilty of that myself when I was in my early teens. I'd like to chalk that up to hormones and the result of limited experience with the opposite gender, particularly in my chosen field of time wasting. That was over a decade ago though and I do believe it's gotten much better as time has gone by.

The console crowd is pretty notorious for its verbal abuse during games. It's not limited to women. Never has been. Never will be. The sheer amount of times I've heard the words "fucking ******" while playing Halo stand as testament to this fact. This doesn't make it "ok" or excuse the behavior, but it's worth taking a moment to fully understand the implications.

You're getting harassed because you're a girl. I'm getting harassed because I killed the guy four times in a row. The point is the harassment. The point is to be an absolute cock to someone else while you're in a position of relative safety and are free from any tangible acts of reprisal. It happens. A lot. Welcome to the internet.

As for Gamer Girls in general? The more the fucking merrier! I don't know of and haven't heard about ANY male past puberty who doesn't want more women involved in the hobby. Men happen to be very fond of women, after all. Hell, my ideal girl is a gamer girl. Anybody who understands and supports that I want to spend a significant portion of my time in front of a computer or TV without treating me like a child is definitely worthy of my respect.

 

[Xanadu84]

Don't be depressed. Sure there is sexism in gaming, and terrible sexism at that. But there is sexism EVERYWHERE. It doesn't mean that the sexism we have is okay, it just means that it got there via a sort of cultural osmosis, and only looks particularly horrible because gaming tends to involve a lot of anonymity. Given the conscious choice many people are making to change, I think we can proudly say that we are at least slightly less horrible then the norm. And a series of becoming slightly less horrible is pretty much the primary driving force in the advancement of human culture. And we are pushing that advancement way, way faster then a lot of people.

Basically, in a world where American politicians are arguing over if women should have their birth control covered by insurance, gamers went from complete complacency in the objectification of women, to freaking the fuck out over tomb raider and rape tropes, scantily clad nuns, and X Box Live harassment, practically overnight. We may not be in a good place, but we are traveling in a good direction, and fast.

 

[BRex21]

Lastly the existence of female cons like 'Geek Girl Con' do not prove that 'men should be allowed to exclude women too' They are only there because women feel like they cannot be part of the main scene. If you look at pictures of those cons, sure they aren't as busy as the main cons but there is a significantly different amount of women you see there and in the pictures from the main cons. That is disturbing to me. It suggests that women feel like the main gaming cons aren't relevant or just plain hostile to them.

Sadly in our society it really does. IF you ever see the amount of hostility the existence of a male safe event is in ANY context is ridiculous. I have no problem with women wanting women safe space, however they should not hold men to a pointless double standard that men always have to be inclusive because otherwise a womans little feelings might get hurt.
The absence of any male safe space in society is a perfect breeding condition for anger particularly in a community where any discussions about sexism against men will be met with "the male privilege checklist".
Is it so hard to believe that men who have to constantly hear about how women are right to hate them and how women fear them in a culture where female on male harassment is not only considered acceptable but GOOD BEHAVIOUR that men might want somewhere to go where they can just be with the guys without women nagging and trying to correct their behaviour.

 

[Smeatza]

This subject is getting really mundane, the sensationalism even more so.
Most sources seem to agree that about 40% of gamers are female. All groups tend to be portrayed poorly in all mass media. Females, males, races and nationalities tend to be portrayed poorly in television, film, video games and even music.
Singling out video games and females seems like concentrating on the symptom, not the cause.

Not that it's not worth doing, It can raise awareness for the actual issue with our culture's.