I'm super depressed about sexism in gaming...

[Spearmaster]

I was reading the title of this thread and realized that if anyone feels gaming is actually doing them psychological harm, whether its from
sexism,
on disk DLC,
poor DRM,
high prices of games,
X game changed X feature,
PVP griefing/harassment/trolling,
publishers ruining games,
developers ruining games,
ME3 endings, Bioware,
EA,
Activision,
Blizzard,
Ubisoft,
girl gamers
or anything else,
you should take a step back from the hobby and find something different to do for a while and possibly seek professional help.

Gaming is supposed to enrich our lives, not cause us psychological harm, and no its not this big grand lifestyle choice to be a "gamer" its just a hobby. That was just a marketing scheme that apparently worked.

So maybe take a step back from gaming and do something else, talking about gaming does not count. Hope this helps.


Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional of any kind, if you do feel you have a serious problem of any kind contact a professional and get it checked out.

 

[Elate]

Well yeah, I wonder why they don't go to the game cons with all the damn booth babes getting their chest melons up in their face. I wouldn't like that either.

But really, it's more like this:

I don't go into a movie and start going "THIS MOVIE IS TOO VIOLENT AND DOESN'T APPEAL TO ME, WE NEED TO CHANGE IT."

So I don't expect women, or anyone else to come into gaming and go "THESE GAMES DON'T HAVE ENOUGH WOMEN, WE NEED TO CHANGE IT." the same way I don't go into gaming and go "THESE GAMES DON'T HAVE ENOUGH GAY MEN, WE NEED TO CHANGE IT." No. No you don't do that, what you do is you make more diverse stuff and leave the originals as they were. Aka, why we have different genre's of movies, you don't CHANGE the base thing, you make more with improvements to your taste, things like heavy rain and what not.

I do see why male gamers have a problem with it, I have a problem with it. If female gamers feel they aren't getting enough representation, then yes, they should go try and get something done and carve their own niche in gaming, not try and change someone elses hobby, just as I don't try and change it, because it would be selfish to the people that enjoy the over masculine, manly games.

Think of this way if you really want, how would you feel if religious zelots tried changing gaming so that it /had/ to include more religious views, and preach gods word? You'd be pretty outraged right? This is a similar thing to a lesser extent, sure, women aren't represented very well in gaming, but neither are a lot of things, women also aren't represented very well in action movies, but I don't see them up in arms trying to change that. I feel the efforts are being focused in the wrong place, and is causing more isolation, girl only events only prove to cause more isolation and consolidate those views. If you don't like normal events, sure make your own, but don't then segregate them based on gender, just have less booth babes.

 

[rbstewart7263]

More games. thats it. More diverse people making games. thats it. I think every person who has a problem with the industry that doesnt make the effort to build the art needed to make things diverse, have a duty to do so. More gay men in games. YOU fix it. More females in games. YOU FIX IT. YOUR MY EQUAL IF I CAN PROGRAM SO CAN YOU.

If you cant then say your piece and be done with it. If all the developers arent bleeding there hearts for your cause and your still not satisfied 5 years from now. guess you couldve used that 5 years building the characters and games that you wanted in your life.


Im not saying that awareness is bad. But for the sake of true equality I expect for every thousand women who want to write and talk and ask others to do this equality thing for them? I expect at least one out of every thousand to be a pioneer and go start learning at full sail. or start programming for xbla or for the ouya or something.

Eventually there will be games that are fanservice for everyone.


What we need is another oni game. that would fix everyones problem lol.

 

[Gladys Knight]

Hmmm... so it appears that, for the sake of equality, we need to call for change if one specific group is subjected to what a number of others have been putting up with. And we pay special attention to whether someone calls attention to someone's gender in a negative way, rather than look at the overall issue of people saying negative things in the first place.

Additionally, if a black girl is called something racial and a white girl is called something negative based on gender, the black girl is not a victim and there is no epidemic or sense of being unwelcome but the white girl is a victim and there has been a direct assault on her entire gender.

Additionally, problems with the internet and anonymity apparently = problems exclusive to gaming. Like, I guess, if a school overall has bad test scores we blame each individual classroom now.

Additionally, if someone garners a lot of hate due to making accusations of sexism amongst a culture, any vitriol received in return is an attempt to support an environment that she is speaking out against. It's impossible for a person taking a stand to just suck and be unlikable.

Additionally, interactions between males and females that reflect how males and females commonly interact = problems exclusive to wherever they happen to be interacting at that time.

Or maybe the world just has jerks in it and consists of a bunch of things that a bunch of people don't like...

I feel more bad for people with lower income trying to play "core" video games right now than I do any group of people...

I didn't see anybody making any of those points. Care to elaborate?

Simple. You cannot believe any of this is an isolated problem for women, an assault on their gender and and effort targeted specifically at them to "keep them out" unless you believe all or most of what I said above. You have to ignore the general atmosphere of abuse on the internet if you want to be able to say that women are a special target in video games.

1: The "Black and white girl" example. Those who say that women are under special attack are essentially saying that all the racism/racist comments thrown out all the time on the internet and, by extension, in gaming don't count. Isolating the issues to try to make one seem worse. Otherwise you'd be seeing a problem with ABUSE IN GENERAL and not abuse against women.

2: Regarding anonymity and the internet. Those who are trying to paint gaming as this culture with a disproportionate amount of abuse towards women not only have to believe the above but also have to believe that these problems do not exist on the internet in general, the medium largely being used to communicate in gaming. This, of course, is also untrue and the pretending that gaming has an "epidemic" unlike any other is merely a way to scare people into action while making them scared to question your motives, cause or "facts."

3: Regarding hate directed toward an individual. Somebody made reference to the hate Anita Sarkeesian got supposedly for daring to bring up the issue and take a stance on behalf of women. The problem with this element is that what is really happening is that people who don't like ANITA, who happens to be a woman, or Anita's ATTITUDE, DATA, CREDIBILITY etc. are immediately roped into the crowd of people who hate women and want to see them oppressed. Essentially rendering her invulnerable to scrutiny. As if Anita, due to the fact that she was /is supposedly defending women, can't just plain suck and be unlikable. This ties into an earlier part of this post regarding playing pretend with the internet. Pretending that vitriol and terrible hate/threats levied at someone on the internet is new or exclusive to people taking up a cause for women is dishonest.

4: Regarding male and female interaction... Trying to reimage common male/female interaction is dishonest and a shady attempt to paint an issue on a canvas where there is none. When people say things like "I don't play games to get hit on, I play them to have fun!" They are 1: Pretending that no woman in the world has fun getting hit on and 2: That humans only pursue or attempt to woo people they are interested in in specially designated areas. Male and female. What's actually happening there is a terrible example of being self-absorbed where some individuals believe that inconvenient social situations such as being hit on should be repackaged as specialized examples of abuse, despite there being no call to make this so across the board. I have no idea why people are expecting video games to be this haven of monitored social interaction where everyone has their own personalized ruleset that dictates their experience but still allows them to interact with the general public. This isn't even touching on how many of these ideas of what is "unacceptable" (being hit on) seem almost as oppressive as the behavior is being positioned as due to essentially trying to eliminate the right for a woman to be hit on while playing video games if she chooses.

These are the things being championed by individuals who would dare say that women are subject to an organized campaign of abuse specifically aimed at running them out of gaming. These are the things believed by people who think that the internet should be a place that governs interactions in ways more personalized to the individual than the general public does. These are people who really try to exploit isolationism and cherry picking to try to paint issues on to where other completely different issues lie in a dishonest attempt to try to abuse victim status to strong-arm people into creating favorable conditions for them. Terrible.

And this isn't even getting into the whole "the world is filled with jerks that are jerks to everyone" and "men DID have to prove themselves. The market didn't just grow without demand" elements.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Well yeah thats fine an all but if I ***** all week about being fat i need to go do something about it ya know not just keep running peoples ears off. no disrespect meant of course. And sorry but counter art to offensive art is always more effective than a counterargument to an offensive art. And Im not a game dev but I recognize my own potential to be(plan on going back to college for that actually)

Im not saying that constructive criticism is bad or needs to cease I never said that. Im saying that horse has already been beaten and its time for action. Talk only gets you so far and weve done ALOT OF TALKING.lol

And "triple a games is expensive" is the weakest argument. you know whats not so expensive? indie games, you know where lots of free money comes from? kickstarter. You know what kicks the triple a industry in the ass and gets it to change based on its own successes and thus would accomplish so much more than the sum total of all the debates weve had on here at the escapist? ONE GOOD Indie game expressing these ideas that have been thrown around.

So given that the resources ARE THERE! and again I didnt say everyone just one out of every one thousand. I fully expect people to Do instead of talk at this point and feel no shame for it.

You gotta be two things to rule a domain thats not yours. be a pioneer or be a conqueror.You either hit a niche market that didnt exist before you or make something better than everyone else and steal there market. but telling the developers that there sexist pigs and lots of people have done that shit carelessly with no regard to the developers and there feelings. Well we see how far that goes.

 

[rbstewart7263]

Snip

Id say its more true that "men" in gaming have always wanted more women in games. wanted a girlfriend or friend to be able to see and appreciate what we do. Not that we own the couch and the controller too.lmao

I mean yeah there are guys who are dicks online but still.

 

[DRes82]

wall of text

Heh, how did I miss THIS one? So disappointed.

You know what I find offensive? People who are pretentious and self-righteous enough that they believe they can speak for a huge group of people. My wife is an avid gamer. She has no problems with any social stigma attached to being a female gamer, because there isn't one in the real world. Both of my sisters are gamers as well. I've never heard them complain once of being accused of seeking attention. I've even flat out asked my wife if she encountered any sexism in the gaming community, specifically because of the drivel that's been posted here. She just looked at me sideways and asked, "no?". An interesting note, she is 26 and has been a gamer since she was old enough to hold a controller. I would pity the guy who tried to lay a trip on her in vent or psn or xbl.

I'll be honest, this thread seems more like an attempt at attention seeking to me than any real shit going on in the community. Its probably been said already. Looks like I'm a little late to the party.

 

[Vegan_Doodler]

[snip]
......
If you can, that's great. Being a game dev must be awesome. In that case, though, you need to stop being so defensive and accept some constructive criticism. Sometimes, female characters in videogames are really badly represented. A lot of times they aren't, and that's fantastic. All we're saying is that we want more of the good, and less of the bad, and I don't understand why that is so horrible.

This right here is what is at the core of the communication problem, what a person subjectively likes dose not equate to objective quality. People like different thing, and telling someone that something that they like is bad is the absolute worst possible way to get your point of view across. This applies to your point about constructive criticism, something that never seems to come up when discussing female characters, the majority of the time people just shout about how it's terrible and the entire industry must be sexist misogynistic pigs.

And asking someone to not be defensive when it comes to their own work is in fact asking way too much, especially when the criticism always seems to be get accused of being sexist when the vast, vast majority of Game Devs aren't.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

But woman + soldier? There is not much a woman with a gun in real life. You think most Skyrim buyers are female gamer?

Yeah I'm sure this woman deserves 0 respect for defending her country /sarcasm. There are also numerous female fighter pilots. How many wars have you fought in and lost a limb exactly?

As for Skyrim I'm 3 achievements off 100%ing it and my character is lvl 62. How are you getting along there?

snip

1. Judging people based on their sex = sexism
2. By your rationale the only people who should be allowed to write books in Britain are religious people because they were the only ones who had access to texts for centuries.
3. I've been playing games for 26 years so I think my opinion is just as valid as yours, ovaries or not.

And to all the people saying 'Male developers can do what they want! Sexism or no!' Would you defend them if the majority of male developers were white and they made a racist game? I HIGHLY doubt it.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

wall of text

Heh, how did I miss THIS one? So disappointed.

You know what I find offensive? People who are pretentious and self-righteous enough that they believe they can speak for a huge group of people. My wife is an avid gamer. She has no problems with any social stigma attached to being a female gamer

Reread that again. Can you see the hypocrisy there? At all? So your wife has never experienced something that clearly the women in the entire back catalog of fatuglyorslutty.com have experienced... or even just yesterday a girl entered my Mann Up, MVM game of TF2 (you could tell by her username) we were on wave 8 and immediately a vote kick came up. Myself and another player voted for her to stay and so she managed to stay in the game. We won the wave and the game because of her healing myself (soldier) and a Heavy. I congratulated her on her healing in voice chat and the guy who had voted to kick her said 'fucking bitches' and left the game. I was pissed that he got extra items from my surplus voucher.

Clearly there is no sexism in the gaming community. :|

And how am I attention seeking exactly? By making myself as unpopular as possible? -.-

 

[Naroiden]

But woman + soldier? There is not much a woman with a gun in real life. You think most Skyrim buyers are female gamer?

Yeah I'm sure this woman deserves 0 respect for defending her country /sarcasm. There are also numerous female fighter pilots. How many wars have you fought in and lost a limb exactly?

As for Skyrim I'm 3 achievements off 100%ing it and my character is lvl 62. How are you getting along there?

Yeah, there is some woman in that subjects, but game companys can`t see this ''some womans''. If they even can see this, it is not enough to put a woman in war game. It is not sexism. It is just game company`s laziness and currency earnings in game sector. But in other subject like female characters, yeah, it is sexism.

If you noticed that, there is no Turkish language support in games. Am I should start a topic like ''I'm super depressed about racism in gaming...''? Nope. Because I know it is just game company`s laziness and currency earnings in game sector.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip

So you are defending them for lazy writing, greed and ignoring the possibility of more diversity in games.

Gotcha.

 

[Naroiden]

snip

So you are defending them for lazy writing, greed and ignoring the possibility of more diversity in games.

Gotcha.

Nope. I know they making games for males. I know they using female characters for males. But in war + female, it is just lazy writing, greed and ignoring the possibility of more diversity. I am just defending logic.

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

snip.

There are plenty of women soldiers though so I don't really see your point, sorry.

 

[Naroiden]

snip.

There are plenty of women soldiers though so I don't really see your point, sorry.

Yeah, there is some woman in that subjects, but game companys can`t see this ''some womans''.

+

Because plenty of women soldiers are not enough to put a woman to war games. If they want to make a love story in war, they will put a woman to war. It is how works writing a story. It is depent to story. If the war story not for female, it means there is no female in war. That`s all. Usualy war is for men. Not for womans. That`s because there is not much female characters in war games. At least, Medal of Honor Underground and Call of Duty 3 has a female character.