I'm tired of hearing this particular argument against the Second Amendment:

[headshotcatcher]

a Reuters camera crew, we're calling them "Taliban" or "insurgents" respectively in the news reports.

They had AK-47's, brown clothes and slings. Also they came out of a van. For all those soldiers knew they might have had some cameras to film a new Bin Laden video?

Have you even seen the video of that?

Just wanted to point it outt..

 

[Blobpie]

The US will win any conventional war, but will lose any unconventional wars.
Because it is very hard for a conventional force to win against a unconventional force.
EI: Vietnam and Afghanistan

 

[Ironic Pirate]

I'm not saying Americans wouldn't be unwilling to kill each other, I'm saying the Civil War is a silly place to use as an example.

Seems to me to be a fairly important proof-of-concept.

Again, not really.

The two events (we're calling the hypothetical an event) happened hundreds of years apart for completely different reasons. That happened in a completely different era than this.

Other than the fact that both took place in America (and America is very different now), there aren't many similarities.

 

[Irony's Acolyte]

Well how well a militia made up of American citizens using the guns that they own could hold off a modern army is dependent largly upon the will of the opposing force. Sure you can put up a guerilla war to fight the invaders, but guerilla warfare isn't about winning battles and holding groud; its about breaking the will to fight of the opposing side. If the opposing force is similar to most of the western world, sufficent resistance will eventually cause the opposing force to back off whether it be due to political backlash or economic reasons. On the other if you have a totally ruthless force that will stop at nothing to win, and isn't afraid of killing 90 people just so that the 10 left don't resist, a guerilla war is ultimately one last irritant before submission.

 

[AquaAscension]

Does there need to be stricter gun control laws? Hell yes. Do guns need to be respected more? Again, yes. Are guns themselves dangerous? Well, that depends. Depends on the person wielding the weapon. Just like a pen in the wrong hands can lead to a lot of damage, so too can a gun in the wrong hands. It's just that a gun's last word is usually non negotiable. At least, with ink, lives aren't in immediate danger.

So the question is, do you assume the average citizen is a responsible individual concerned with the well-being of themselves and others, or a borderline sociopath who is looking for a reason? I prefer the first. Yeah, people may be jerks in general, but your average person isn't Loughner; they're the guy throwing himself in front of his wife. When I look around and see many people with guns, I'm not afraid, I'm relaxed. Most of those people are law-abiding citizens with a concern for not only their own safety, but also the safety of others, because people are basically kind of inherently 'good.'

Additionally, one can't always expect the police to be around and/or useful. I won't jump right into horrific anecdotal details here, but suffice it to say for the moment that citizens need to be able to protect themselves. The law-abiding will follow regulations preventing them from owning guns, but individuals who've already decided to break society's number one taboo feel no such restrictions...

The problem is that I agree with your assessment that most people are reasonable and are not dangerous towards others or themselves. Most people just want to live and let others live and would prefer a life packed full with respect and love. Since these people are also rational, I would assume that they would be perfectly fine with undergoing background checks and also be up for a relatively short waiting period in order to procure a firearm. What is the harm? I just don't understand why anyone would be against actually having these regulations in place in order to safeguard the many from the few.

I make no arguments about owning guns. I think that firearms can be necessary for defense because I'm not a complete idiot nor ostrich with my head stuck firmly in the sand nor with it stuck somewhere far less savory. If you want to own a gun, that is your right, and I would not want to block you from doing that. At all. However, I would like regulations in place that limit those Joker type (just want to watch the world burn) peoples' firearm purchasing power.

 

[phelan511]

the US military aren't allowed to blow up expected bases or attack people without authorization due to the 'Human rights protesters'

Oh horseshit. Human rights protestors have about zero effect on how the US military conducts itself in the field.

False. If they and the world opinion didnt matter Iraq and Afghanistan would have been effectively wiped off the map.

Keep in mind that while some of the civilian populace in these areas may be terrorist sympathizers, there are a great deal of innocent civilians to whom these regions are simply their home, and all they seek is to live out their lives. And they have been the ones hit the hardest by far. I'd say that is reason enough not to saturation bomb the place.

True. But speaking as someone who's been in Iraq. The US military is effectively hamstrung by world opinion. I was in an Armor unit and we had to call up to Battalion HQ just to get approval to fire anything bigger than a 7.62. Now our request had to go up the chain from my tank, to my platoon leader, to my company commander, to the battalion CO. By the time the information got sent back to us the situation had already reached shitstorm levels. Why? Because we cant afford to "lose the hearts and minds" of the people. Not just here, not just in Iraq. But globally. I can honestly say that if there was zero consequence for it, ground troops would be out of there and we'd bomb them into submission. Not saying I agree with it, but its a whole lot easier to pacify an area by turning it into a large parking area.

Really? Your chain of command do realize they are hated already right? And that they can't make matters worse especially after wikileaks and occupying a country in which you have no business being in?

Hated.... right. Thats why when my unit was on foot doing patrols we had groups of kids running to us laughing and wanting to play. Thats why when we went inside a home to talk to the locals to gather intelligence and help clear out the militants in their neighborhood they were actually happy we were there. Look, unless you've actually fucking been there, don't open your mouth. And from what I can tell. You haven't read the damn files so I don't totally know why you're bringing up wikileaks. Seems to me that you listen to the news way too much. The news will always post what they like to post to drive ratings, they will never give the full story, only what will outrage people and keep them coming back to find out what the big bad American government is doing.

Then explain why so many soldiers returning had stories of being hated. It's hardly a spin in the news if its 1st hand information from someone who just came home now is it?

how about this, give us the names of the people giving you '1st hand information' about being hated.


I have talked with several groups of soldiers while I was, and still am, training to join the military and pretty much heard the same story of kids coming up and talking with troops.

hell, back with the first elections people were joyful for finally being able to elect someone they wanted.


you should know also, that Fox News does NOT equal first hand information.

Well I do have two friends who served in the military and they said it the same story of being in danger all the time. However in all fairness i haven't spoken to one of them in about a year since he quit his job.

I can vouch for my entire unit. Thats roughly 100 men. Were we in danger? Hell yes. But the population wasn't the problem. It was the foreign fighters (meaning foreign to Iraq) that were causing all the issues in my sector. Despite what news outlets show, the Iraqi people don't hate us. Do they think we overstayed our welcome? I don't doubt it. But they would like to see us finish the job and not leave the country in the state it was.

 

[Gindil]

I'm confused... sorry can someone explain the second amendment to me? I'm an ignorant Australian

Our right to bear arms. Basically, you can carry a gun without them being banned.

 

[Dark Knifer]

Well, let's put it hypothetically and say that America wants to oppress it's people. I believe they would use propaganda tactics to achieve that rather then the military, at least, not at first. Hell, Hitler had a huge army believing 100% that they were in the right, so it's not like mass propaganda would be impossible. So I don't really see what difference the second amendment would make if the government is in control with a genius/megalomaniac. Unless the megalomaniac was an idiot, then it might.

 

[Ambi]

THE LAND OF THE FREE AND THE HOME OF THE BRAVE FUCK YEAH

3 Criminals: We all got guns. Give us your money, so we can go buy some more ammo for drive-by shootings and killing innocents.

Civillian: SAY HELLO TO MY LITTLE FRIEND! DAKKADAKKADAKKADAKKA-

Armed Police, which is ALL OF THEM: Shit, we just shot the wrong guy!

Civillian: You shot our friend!

Criminals: Everybody got guns! shoot the police!

moreCriminals: Don't forget about us, we've got massive shooters too!

Some civillians who are now shooting civillians: FUCK EVERYONE.

Police: Friendly fire! friendly fire! shit!

Other police: The fuck? who's shooting at us!? everybody be shooting!

Criminals: Time to mow down more civillians!

Civillians: Vigilante Justice Time!

Police: They're all murderers! shoot them all!

DAKKADAKKADAKKACHKCHKBOOMCHKCHKBOOMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMBLAMTHOOMPTHOOMPFIREINTHEHOLEAUUUUGHKAPOWKAPOWKAPOWFUUUUUU-

[sub]I may have gotten carried away.[/sub]

rofl

Civilian: HELL NO THAT'S NOT HOW IT HAPPENED LISTEN TO ALEX JONES YOU SHEEPLE IT'S A CONSPIRACY TO TRY TO TAKE AWAY OUR GAWD GIVEN SECOND AMENDMENT CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS MAINSTREAM MEDIA IS DECEIVING YA'LL IT WAS AN INSIDE JOB AND YANNO WHAT WE AINT STANDING FOR IT ANY LONGER!!! THEY'RE EVIL! THEY DON'T SEE YOU AS A HUMAN BEING, YOU'RE A NUMBER! THEY'RE TRYING TO CUT DOWN OUR NUMBERS AND ESTABLISH A NEW WORLD ORDER AND OBAMA IS THE ANTICHRIST!!! THEY'RE USING HAARP TECHNOLOGY TO BEAM RADIOSONIC SIGNALS INTO THE TECTONIC PLATES TO MAKE IT LOOK LIKE CO2 IS CAUSING GLOBAL WARMING IT'S SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN AND IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE ME I'VE BEEN RESEARCHING IT FOR 25 YEARS AND THEY GOT YOUR BRAIN UNDER CONTROL BECAUSE YOU AINT BEEN WEARING YOUR TIN FOIL HAT! (only $99.95 order online from saynotobigpharma.com) AND IF THEY COME FOR US WHICH THEY WILL CAUSE WE'RE EXPOSING THEIR LIES WE GOT OUR GUNS RIGHT HERE *establishes armed cult in the wilderness à la Mount Carmel Centre*