In Defence of Frank Miller

[Helmholtz Watson]

As for your fixed comment, I don't get it. Why would a women be in a refrigerator?

The phrase "women in refrigerators" refers to a recurring trope in comics. Specifically, that female characters are often raped/killed/abused, not to further their own character arcs or to develop them more as characters, but to give motivation to the male protagonist and to further the male protagonists arc.

Ah, ok thanks for the definition.

 

[Vausch]

Yeah, no. See, the over-sexualisation of Miller's women tends to not only come from the bodies, but also because Miller himself is outright saying he's only doing it to be titillating and to appease both himself and the audience. Seriously, have you read the script for All-Star Batman and Robin? He's putting on a 4th wall breaking strip-tease for the 14-year-olds reading and for himself, nothing more.

Here's another big problem, all of the female characters Miller writes as of late, and ASBAR especially, run on the mindset that they're after men. More specifically Bruce, but in the 5 issues I got through I didn't see 2 named female characters talk to each other, and their conversations more often than not were taken up mostly by the dialogue "I'm having a date with Bruce Wayne" or implying that Bruce is the reason Black Canary is a badass just for being who he is.

Miller wrote some great comics, but now he's devolved into a sexist homophobic nut. I long for the day I can read a Miller comic that doesn't either hurt my eyes from terrible art or torgo syndrome dialogue.

So Miller admits that the sole point of it is simply sexploitation for the sake of sexploitation... Again, whats the problem? It works. He's good at writing it. He's not pretending it's some pretentious bullshit with a deep meaning.

No, he isn't. Miller's writing has gotten horrible frequently repeating a stupid sentence or phrase over and over, and I could be wrong but shouldn't a book titled "All-Star Batman and Robin" focus on, I dunno, BATMAN AND ROBIN? Besides, the only reason ASBAR even works on that level is because of Jim Lee's artwork, if Miller were put in charge of that you'd get more titillation from XKCD.

And yes, he is still trying to get a meaning across with a lot of his stories. He's trying to get across in ASBAR that Batman is the best superhero ever and every other hero is dumb. He's just bringing in a lot of crap to pad out an already bad story.

I've read some of it. It's not the best Batman story I've ever read and it's also not the worst.

"I'm the Goddamn Batman".

Try figuring out the time frame the first 3 issues take place in, I still haven't figured it out. I give it one bit of credit, Batman painting a room, himself, and Robin yellow and offering Green Lantern a glass of lemonade was hilarious. But overall the comic is very messed up, it makes Batman look psychotic.

Think thats bad? Try re-watching the DC Animated Universe starting with the first season of Batman. It's basically set in the 1950s, but the time the continuity ends it's borderline the near future.

Yeah that still confused me a little, but I concluded that Batman TAS took place in modern times but the city itself chooses to maintain a 50s-60s setting for whatever reason. I know it's a stretch but it kinda works because it explains VHS tapes being widely available and affordable, colour tv, most of Batman and his villains tech in conjunction with the others.

 

[JimB]

It doesn't prove that he hates women; it just shows that he doesn't give them center roles.

And that he is incapable of writing women who are not subjected to sexual violence.

The movie's time period should also be taken into consideration.

Crap. You do not get to assert historical accuracy as a defense for the repulsive parts of a movie as blatantly and deliberately inaccurate as 300.

Don't the prostitutes in O-Town run their own racket?

And? Frank Miller has still created a world where the only employment for women is the sex industry.* How is it better that they don't have pimps? And I've only seen the movie, not the comic, but I can't help noticing that these oh-so tough, competent women are made helpless twice--first when Jackie dies, and then when Gail is kidnapped--and need a man to save them.

--

*Also a world where the only Asian person is a goddamned ninja, but never mind, let's stick to sexism arguments for now. There's room for racism later.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

And that he is incapable of writing women who are not subjected to sexual violence.

Ok, he is a narrow minded writer who keeps making the same female character again and again, just with a different name and face.

Crap. You do not get to assert historical accuracy as a defense for the repulsive parts of a movie as blatantly and deliberately inaccurate as 300.

Sure I can, it just makes Frank Miller contradicting.

And? Frank Miller has still created a world where the only employment for women is the sex industry.* How is it better that they don't have pimps? And I've only seen the movie, not the comic, but I can't help noticing that these oh-so tough, competent women are made helpless twice--first when Jackie dies, and then when Gail is kidnapped--and need a man to save them.

--

*Also a world where the only Asian person is a goddamned ninja, but never mind, let's stick to sexism arguments for now. There's room for racism later.

That is sexist writing, not a sign of hatred of women. As for the Eurasian actress, she isn't a ninja. She is the muscle for Gail. Also the swastika flying star seems hardly stereotypical.

 

[Aprilgold]

I just hate him for his moronic homophobic lines from most of his comics. Trying to be gritty and dark while just sounding like a prick doesn't give me much reason to like him or his work.

Edit: Found the line from Sin City that was just... Stupid:
"Lucille's my parole officer. She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants." Lovely writing right there... How does this person have fans again?

Many straight guys think they can "Cure a woman of being a lesbian" despite this being not-true. So they will empathize with the hero in the comic on the basis of "Yeah I don't get any from that hot lesbian chick."

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Like I have said, the problem isn't the fact that woman exist only to be sexy in comics / tv / games but that males support this blatant sexism. I'm a male, I don't agree with much of this sexy-portrayal of women because it is not need and also because I am portrayed as either a flamboyant mother fucker, a child molester or a painfully unfunny ass in a high-pitched voice and its annoying as hell. But you know what? People won't fight for that change because, just like with women in the case above, its become normal in these mediums despite how wrong it is.

 

[JimB]

Okay, he is a narrow-minded writer who keeps making the same female character again and again, just with a different name and face.

I can't tell for sure, but I think we're in agreement here, so I'm gonna let that one go.

Crap. You do not get to assert historical accuracy as a defense for the repulsive parts of a movie as blatantly and deliberately inaccurate as 300.

Sure I can; it just makes Frank Miller contradicting.

No. That crap didn't fly when Byron Hall used it in defense of F.A.T.A.L., and it doesn't fly here. If you pick and choose which parts of history you're going to be faithful to, then you're doing so because you have an agenda. When we compare the rest of his body of work to the part of history Miller ostensibly chose to be faithful to, it's pretty damned apparent he has woman issues.

That is sexist writing, not a sign of hatred of women.

"Hatred of women" is half of the definition of misogyny. The other half is, "or hostility toward women." His refusal to depict women as anything other than holes for men to stick their dicks in regardless of the woman's consent sounds pretty hostile to women from where I'm sitting.

As for the Eurasian actress, she isn't a ninja.

I don't care about the actress's ethnicity. I care about the character's. With a name like Miko, I tend to assume she's Japanese, but that's just a guess.

She is the muscle for Gail.

Who uses throwing stars and a katana instead of oh, say, a gun. Or if that's too loud, a switchblade.

Also the swastika flying star seems hardly stereotypical.

Throwing blades come in all shapes and sizes. So?

 

[Kahunaburger]

To reinforce the above, the whole concept of historical accuracy in 300 is pretty hilarious anyway. And, if we're going to get into the whole racism discussion...

 

[Vault101]

because its fucking annoying and should be there [/i]when it doesnt need to be there[i/]

like I'm not going to care about lollipop chainsaw or bayonetta....but msot of the other time it will be annoying and not needed....and generally I find the the [b/]more sexualised a charachter is the less actual personality they have [/b] because sexy= interesting right? derp?...NO...hece why I fucking hate feme fatal charachters

but really I'm not as interwsted in how they are dressed

or let me flip this question around

does it bother you that femshep doesnt have the same "assets" and miranda?...does it bother you that Zoe from left 4 dead is dressed normally?....does it bother you that the New lara croft doesn thave huge boobs? does it bother you you can;t make a chainmail bikini wearing hot elf rouge in Dark souls?

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Raped. She is just a rape victim who can't even convince the court of the rapist guilt and has to assault him...

Sorry but 300 is more evidence of Millers shitty writing.

Raped? I'll give you that she didn't enjoy it, but it wasn't rape. She did it in return for the politician to help her out with the senate.

I can't tell for sure, but I think we're in agreement here, so I'm gonna let that one go.

We are. The only thing I know about Miller are the movies based off of his comics, but from what people are saying, he sounds like a poor writer who is sexist.

No. That crap didn't fly when Byron Hall used it in defense of F.A.T.A.L. and it doesn't fly here.,

I don't read comics, so I don't know what you are referring to.

If you pick and choose which parts of history you're going to be faithful to, then you're doing so because you have an agenda.

Ok, I don't disagree with that.

When we compare the rest of his body of work to the part of history Miller ostensibly chose to be faithful to, it's pretty damned apparent he has woman issues.

Again, I don't follow Miller's work outside of his two movies, so your going to have to bring me evidence of the "history" of Millers work.

"Hatred of women" is half of the definition of misogyny. The other half is, "or hostility toward women." His refusal to depict women as anything other than holes for men to stick their dicks in regardless of the woman's consent sounds pretty hostile to women from where I'm sitting.

Then that's a nice opinion that you have. I think the guy is sexist, but "misogynist" is going overboard.

I don't care about the actress's ethnicity. I care about the character's. With a name like Miko, I tend to assume she's Japanese, but that's just a guess.

And your guess would be wrong, the actress is Eurasian. As for the character, your wrong about her being a "ninja".

Who uses throwing stars and a katana instead of oh, say, a gun. Or if that's too loud, a switchblade.

Still not a ninja anymore than Violet Song is a ninja.

Throwing blades come in all shapes and sizes. So?

The point is that a swastika is hardly a ninja stereotype.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

To reinforce the above, the whole concept of historical accuracy in 300 is pretty hilarious anyway. And, if we're going to get into the whole racism discussion...

As I said before, Miller just contradicts himself by picking what parts of the 300 setting he wants to use. As for the racism, are you referring to 300? If so, yeah....I didn't think that it was a big leap to see a movie about a society of slave killing, eugenic enthusiast, fascist(see:Spartans) as also being racist.

 

[Vault101]

"Lucille's my parole officer. She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants." Lovely writing right there... How does this person have fans again?

Many straight guys think they can "Cure a woman of being a lesbian" despite this being not-true. So they will empathize with the hero in the comic on the basis of "Yeah I don't get any from that hot lesbian chick."

.

really?...many?

I find that pretty disturbing on some levels...like "a girl would only turn lesbian just to spite guys right?"...*sigh*

it also kind of bugs me when a "gay" charachter (usually female) falls for a guy..even if it is just a fling...even though I'm not even gay myself theres somthing about that, that realy bothers me...like

"ok girl, the lesbo act was cute and all, with your "attitude" and "feistnyness" and "man hating" ways..but now its time to settle down and have a REAL relationship"

 

[Charli]

Now, I'll admit, the thread title is bullshit to grab attention because Miller hasn't written anything decent for years, and no amount of debate over the merits of anti-gravity boobs will change that. But I will defend the ridiculous way women are portrayed in his and other comics/videogames

I don't have a problem with the visual aspect of it either, but the fact remains the women are equally poorly written and kind of...abused. And maybe that just melds into the equally valid point of all of the writing being shit.

But yeah, I have no problems with this. If a woman is a good character she can have ridiculous looks too. I like well built animated men visually also. Completely ridiculous idealizations also? You betcha! But the ones I truly go onto admire and 'squee-crush' or whatever the hip kids call it these days, are usually backed up by a good story and brilliant character development ontop of the pleasing aesthetic.


But I think it was a 'using a point to enforce another point' in this case, shoehorning in buxom, over-sexualized babes into a story for no adequate reason? Just as bad as shoehorning in muscular pretty boys in for the same.

 

[wookiee777]

...Or maybe he isn't a misogynist and people use that word too often. Maybe his female character designs are impractical and he can't write (anymore).

But I wouldn't call him misogynistic. That implies that there is malevolence and I don't think that drawing his own little fantasies is hateful, per se, just stupid.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

I don't think sex is bad, that's dumb.
I also think the women are portrayed has to change.
I'd watch MovieBob's `Gender Games` for more of what I mean (because honestly I'm so sick of this topic).
Basically - sexyness not a problem. Nothing but sexyness, problem.

Now can we all move on?

My position on MovieBob is well established, and the source of (i believe) all of my forum warnings.

snip for time

Don't misunderstand: Miller's work is 99% angry misogyny, and well full of crap. I'm just referring to his ART choice, which is brought up more often than his status as a deplorable human being who can only write other deplorable human beings (at least in my circle). I agree with you on most of your points about Miller and the problems in society, but I stand by my statement nonetheless. I don't think you entirely got my point, but I fully blame my own failure to communicate my thoughts rather than some lack of comprehension on your part.

So...you're saying we shouldn't both engaging you on the topic, because you're willing to be dishonest?

How do you both? Both is a pretty cool word to co-op for use as a verb, but you'll have to explain the action. So I can be as cool as you one day.


I say unto ye, Escapist: I am a feminist: I am willing to let women take half the blame for today's problems. Was it woman's fault she was oppressed in times past, when she had no rights? No. It is woman's fault she can't get a job because the other applicant had bigger tits? No. But nor is it man's fault entirely.

Let me be clear: I'm not saying that challenges women are presented with in our society are their fault entirely. That'd be stupid. But I do say that women are partly to blame, and part of it is because the women who DO choose to try and change things focus on the wrong issues. Power Girl's cleavage window is not a threat to woman. Not teaching girls that they don't need to look like Kate Moss is. Maybe comics are a male-dominated industry targeted towards men, written by men, who then don't know how to properly handle female characters. Ladies, start your own comic and make IT part of the public consciousness. Several woman-driven movies have proven that almost anything of sufficient quality can be enjoyed by both genders.
Don't expect men to change because we are told we've done wrong, FORCE change by changing the environment in which we as nation live and formulate our thoughts and biases. And when the ones who can't handle that change rail against it and call you dykes, man-haters, idiot whores, and the like, learn to deal with it and make it so that the future will be WITHOUT those people in it.

I just don't think telling me I shouldn't enjoy idealized physical form is the way to go about it

 

[JimB]

Raped? I'll give you that she didn't enjoy it, but it wasn't rape. She did it in return for the politician to help her out with the senate.

Then she's a whore and an adulterer whose only participation in the sex act was standing there and not making a fuss. Much better.

I don't read comics, so I don't know what you are referring to.

F.A.T.A.L. is a roleplaying game system designed by a man who included systems for rape, references to all female characters as prostitutes, rules to determine the length and girth of your character's penis and/or the circumference of his or her anus and vagina, and tries to justify it by claiming it's realistic for a medieval period but refuses to discuss such consequences of rape and prostitution as disease. It is none of Miller's work, but the comparison occurred to me here.

Again, I don't follow Miller's work outside of his two movies, so your going to have to bring me evidence of the "history" of Miller's work.

Three. You're forgetting the Spirit, not that I blame you. I've only watched that once and was groaning my way through all of it, so I may be misremembering events, but I'm pretty sure every female character, whether good guy or bad guy, makes an earnest attempt to service the Spirit's hog with her hot body because that's what women do, right? They have sex with men regardless of any connection to him?

Other people in this thread have brought up his comic work (all the women of All-Star Batman and Robin existing only in terms of their sexual relationships to Batman; Catwoman's origin being retconned into Selina Kyle as a prostitute), so I'll let other people speak up on that count.

That's a nice opinion that you have.

Thank you. I keep it polished and pretty just so I can show it off at parties like this.

And your guess would be wrong; the actress is Eurasian.

Okay, once again, and bolded for emphasis: I am not talking about the actress. I am talking about the character. Devon Aoki's genetic heritage is irrelevant to the topic of Frank Miller's treatment of a fully Asian character, just as the character of Dr. Fu Manchu isn't somehow less racist just because he was played by Christopher Lee, a Caucasian man.

As for the character, you're wrong about her being a "ninja."

She uses stealth, a samurai sword, and ninja throwing weapons to assassinate people. What is your definition of the word "ninja" such that it does not apply here?

The point is that a swastika is hardly a ninja stereotype.

Why would it need to be?

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

"a pleasant and well thought out response"

See, I'm glad you got my point. Yes writing should be good, but in no way should that preclude sexy people from BEING those well-written characters

*gives you a bag of lucky rat hooves*

 

[Phasmal]

I don't think sex is bad, that's dumb.
I also think the women are portrayed has to change.
I'd watch MovieBob's `Gender Games` for more of what I mean (because honestly I'm so sick of this topic).
Basically - sexyness not a problem. Nothing but sexyness, problem.

Now can we all move on?

My position on MovieBob is well established, and the source of (i believe) all of my forum warnings.

Good for you, he still makes good points in that video, such as being sexy is not a problem.
I've never met someone who had a problem with female video game characters being sexy. I've met PLENTY who are pissed off that it's pretty much all they are.

This reactionary `they just don't want me to be attracted to X!` thinking is silly. I don't give a flying monkey's titty what any of you find attractive. I just want a little more diversity.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

It doesn't prove that he hates women; it just shows that he doesn't give them center roles.

And that he is incapable of writing women who are not subjected to sexual violence.

The movie's time period should also be taken into consideration.

Crap. You do not get to assert historical accuracy as a defense for the repulsive parts of a movie as blatantly and deliberately inaccurate as 300.

Don't the prostitutes in O-Town run their own racket?

And? Frank Miller has still created a world where the only employment for women is the sex industry.* How is it better that they don't have pimps? And I've only seen the movie, not the comic, but I can't help noticing that these oh-so tough, competent women are made helpless twice--first when Jackie dies, and then when Gail is kidnapped--and need a man to save them.

--

*Also a world where the only Asian person is a goddamned ninja, but never mind, let's stick to sexism arguments for now. There's room for racism later.

A sex industry they took over and controlled, and controlled for some time, and they were feared enough that the rest of the other rival families wouldn't dare take them on for it until they made their mistake.

Look I can't say anymore then it's just his writing style, he's good at it, I don't think anyone can take a look at a comic like Sin City and not think it's an awesome piece of literature. Plus when you really analyze it, it's a book about really gruff hardened dudes admitting they don't understand women and sexuality.