In Defence of Frank Miller

[DudeistBelieve]

They didn't want to...?

That is not a reason. It is an expression of desire. A reason would be, "Because they enjoy having men of unknown medical history hosing their innards with his genetic filth."

And it's not porn; it's legit piece of literature.

I did not say it's porn. I said it's revenge porn. Sort of like how the Twilight books are abstinence porn, and how they qualify as literature to an equal degree as Sin City.

I've seen it argued in college classes that Nick Carraway from The Great Gatsby was gay. Literature can be looked at any number of meaningful ways. art is equal.

 

[JimB]

So...how does this work? Does pointing out ones arguing tactic suddenly mean you don't have to counter it?

There is nothing to counter: He is asking a question in response to nothing anyone actually said. It is not a question at all; it's a trap, and I refuse to step into it. A man willing to make such a dishonest statement is a man I have no interest in conversing with. I may disagree with you a lot, SaneAmongInsane, but at least you've never set out to lie to me.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

This is not 'a petty annoyance'

Well thank you for reassuring me, but I'm pretty sure my annoyance at the topic I'm discussing is ENTIRELY petty, and fairly unimportant in the grand scheme of things, especially when compared to the issue you THINK I'm discussing. Which isn't what I'm talking about.

Why don't you go make your OWN thread to discuss all these points, and I'll debate them THERE with you? That sounds nice, doesn't it? Either way, I have to ask you to stop trying to hijack my thread by discussing other issues. It's just poor forum etiquette, and it makes me angry with you, which makes me not want to treat your responses as valid, intelligent entries, but rather as wild poop-flinging and shouting, which isn't fair to you. It also provokes me into derisive behavior, which would get ME into trouble, and inspire you to respond in kind, which would get you in trouble. Then we wouldn't be able to have a scintillating intellectual conversation in your own thread, which not only deprives us of the enjoyment of doing so, but generally makes the forums a less fun place to be.
So do you see how working together makes this a happier, more fun environment to foster deep thought? I hope so and I hope you have a pleasant evening

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

I've seen it argued in college classes that Nick Carraway from The Great Gatsby was gay. Literature can be looked at any number of meaningful ways. art is equal.

Dude mancrush'd hard on gatsby, and was in love with a girl with a mustache. Point makes itself

 

[Kmadden2004]

I just hate him for his moronic homophobic lines from most of his comics. Trying to be gritty and dark while just sounding like a prick doesn't give me much reason to like him or his work.

Edit: Found the line from Sin City that was just... Stupid:
"Lucille's my parole officer. She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants." Lovely writing right there... How does this person have fans again?

Isn't she the only woman in the series [collective works of Frank Miller] who isn't a prostitute?

Didn't he write KickAss? I'm pretty sure HitGirl isn't blowing anyone.

No, that's Mark Miller. Though for the record, there were a few paedophile, loli gags at the expense of her and her inappropriately fetishistic outfit. At least in the movie, anyway.

Yes, i've been corrected. And you're right, they did oddly sexualize that little girl.

I wouldn't say they necessarily sexualised Hit Girl (at least in the movie, I haven't read the books yet), nor was the imagery necessarily at "her expense", since they put her in the stereotypical Catholic school uniform quite a while after her character had been firmly established in our minds as anything but a sexualised Lolita fantasy. So, when she turns up at the mob's HQ in that uniform, we - the audience - know that she is playing into the preconceptions the gangsters guarding the place would have about somebody her age. We're essentially in on the joke.

And even when they showed the uniform, there was nothing truly fetishistic about it, it was just a standard blouse/tie/skirt combination that is commonplace for any school uniform. Again, any unsettling or sexual connotations really stemmed more from the individual audience member's prejudice.

Let everyman be their own judge, but the school girl outfit did bother me... so did that one kid that was like "I wanna marry her!" and his friend was all "but dude she's 8!" and the guy was all "I don't care, I'll wait!"

Like I said, that's a pretty standard school uniform - a pretty conservative one at that - and any feeling of discomfort you might have about it are purely your own prejudice. However, the imagery is purely superficial, and it is vital when judging to take into account the context of the scene and the character's motivations behind wearing that uniform.

And the "I wanna marry her" moment can't really be read as an expression of sexual desire, and he didn't say it in a manner to suggest he was actively attracted to her because she was a kid, it was more him expressing that he thought she was a kick ass girl with attitude. You could even read it as the character just getting caught up in the moment.

 

[Yakostovian]

Edit: Found the line from Sin City that was just... Stupid:
"Lucille's my parole officer. She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants." Lovely writing right there... How does this person have fans again?

That one line can be defended as the thought of misogynist male character. Taken in context with everything else Frank Miller writes, it only sets up more that Frank Miller doesn't understand or seem to even like women.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Let everyman be their own judge, but the school girl outfit did bother me... so did that one kid that was like "I wanna marry her!" and his friend was all "but dude she's 8!" and the guy was all "I don't care, I'll wait!"

See, I didn't see this as sexual in any way. You know why you SHOULD be bothered? Because a sweet little girl just shot a man's face off. Not because there are people out there who think uniforms are sexy.

And the line about marrying her doesn't seem to stem from any fetishes, but rather from awe at her abilities. The line about "waiting" for her is precisely WHY it isn't creepy and pedophilic
He is a nerd who idolizes people who are capable of committing acts of violence beyond any level he could achieve, and wants to attach himself to this perpetrator of violence because she meets this idealized form of carnage he craves

IT SHOULD BE DISTURBING HE LOVES VIOLENCE THIS MUCH
Which is kind of the point of Kick-Ass in the first place. It serves to MOCK violence and shame us for seeing it as entertainment

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

SNIP

There is a problem but it isn't with us ladies. I'll give you a quote from the facebook feed from the Tropes vs Moviebob video that covers it rather well:

It's not that at all. it's that gamer culture and the trends that arise and become successful from it are dominated largely by socially lacking, adolescent guys, often with a mix of lust and resentment towards women. And when women see this culture - and the creepy, alienating stuff it often produces - they get the impression that they simply don't have a place within it. It's not just that they can't relate, it's that they get the implied message loud and clear; that they're not meant to be able to relate.

If women want to enjoy comic books and to an extent video games we basically have to try and ignore the hyper-sexualised background radiation. Which indeed I do, I have a large comic book collection including Frank Miller.

Google 'Tom of Finland' (NSFW) and then imagine a world where all the male game and comic book heroes looked like that. Welcome to the life of a female nerd.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Let everyman be their own judge, but the school girl outfit did bother me... so did that one kid that was like "I wanna marry her!" and his friend was all "but dude she's 8!" and the guy was all "I don't care, I'll wait!"

See, I didn't see this as sexual in any way. You know why you SHOULD be bothered? Because a sweet little girl just shot a man's face off. Not because there are people out there who think uniforms are sexy.

And the line about marrying her doesn't seem to stem from any fetishes, but rather from awe at her abilities. The line about "waiting" for her is precisely WHY it isn't creepy and pedophilic
He is a nerd who idolizes people who are capable of committing acts of violence beyond any level he could achieve, and wants to attach himself to this perpetrator of violence because she meets this idealized form of carnage he craves

IT SHOULD BE DISTURBING HE LOVES VIOLENCE THIS MUCH
Which is kind of the point of Kick-Ass in the first place. It serves to MOCK violence and shame us for seeing it as entertainment

If that was ever the intended theme, the movie didn't do the job well at all at making the audience feel uncomfortable with the violence. the movie did a much better job with that movie SUPER.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

SNIP

There is a problem but it isn't with us ladies. I'll give you a quote from the facebook feed from the Tropes vs Moviebob video that covers it rather well:

It's not that at all. it's that gamer culture and the trends that arise and become successful from it are dominated largely by socially lacking, adolescent guys, often with a mix of lust and resentment towards women. And when women see this culture - and the creepy, alienating stuff it often produces - they get the impression that they simply don't have a place within it. It's not just that they can't relate, it's that they get the implied message loud and clear; that they're not meant to be able to relate.

If women want to enjoy comic books and to an extent video games we basically have to try and ignore the hyper-sexualised background radiation. Which indeed I do, I have a large comic book collection including Frank Miller.

Google 'Tom of Finland' (NSFW) and then imagine a world where all the male game and comic book heroes looked like that. Welcome to the life of a female nerd.

Pretty sure that is gay porn... for gay dudes... so your comparison isn't apt. Unless you are trying to say that looking at this stuff is for women what looking at gay porn is to a straight man. In which case, I don't see it. Sorry, I just completely fail to get what you are trying to say here. Please rephrase

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Pretty sure that is gay porn... for gay dudes... so your comparison isn't apt. Unless you are trying to say that looking at this stuff is for women what looking at gay porn is to a straight man. In which case, I don't see it. Sorry, I just completely fail to get what you are trying to say here. Please rephrase

That's pretty much what comic book females look like to straight women. Every body part is over sexualised and they are twisted into ridiculous poses.

It's basically porn with clothes on.

I'm trying to give you an idea of how it looks from our perspective. How it makes us feel, which is pretty damn uncomfortable.

We aren't asking for comic book females to be ugly we are asking for them to be more than pin up girls.

And no you 'don't see it' which is exactly the problem....

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Let everyman be their own judge, but the school girl outfit did bother me... so did that one kid that was like "I wanna marry her!" and his friend was all "but dude she's 8!" and the guy was all "I don't care, I'll wait!"

See, I didn't see this as sexual in any way. You know why you SHOULD be bothered? Because a sweet little girl just shot a man's face off. Not because there are people out there who think uniforms are sexy.

And the line about marrying her doesn't seem to stem from any fetishes, but rather from awe at her abilities. The line about "waiting" for her is precisely WHY it isn't creepy and pedophilic
He is a nerd who idolizes people who are capable of committing acts of violence beyond any level he could achieve, and wants to attach himself to this perpetrator of violence because she meets this idealized form of carnage he craves

IT SHOULD BE DISTURBING HE LOVES VIOLENCE THIS MUCH
Which is kind of the point of Kick-Ass in the first place. It serves to MOCK violence and shame us for seeing it as entertainment

If that was ever the intended theme, the movie didn't do the job well at all at making the audience feel uncomfortable with the violence. the movie did a much better job with that movie SUPER.

That's the point. It shouldn't need to be lampshaded, the idea is that you should consider this wrong on your own, you sick demented lunatic. Note, I do not believe you are a sick demented lunatic, I am merely using colorful phrase to illustrate the movie's point. So please don't feel I am insulting you. Kick-Ass is insulting you. And everyone who read or watched it.

This is not 'a petty annoyance'

Well thank you for reassuring me, but I'm pretty sure my annoyance at the topic I'm discussing is ENTIRELY petty, and fairly unimportant in the grand scheme of things, especially when compared to the issue you THINK I'm discussing. Which isn't what I'm talking about.

Why don't you go make your OWN thread to discuss all these points, and I'll debate them THERE with you? That sounds nice, doesn't it? Either way, I have to ask you to stop trying to hijack my thread by discussing other issues. It's just poor forum etiquette, and it makes me angry with you, which makes me not want to treat your responses as valid, intelligent entries, but rather as wild poop-flinging and shouting, which isn't fair to you. It also provokes me into derisive behavior, which would get ME into trouble, and inspire you to respond in kind, which would get you in trouble. Then we wouldn't be able to have a scintillating intellectual conversation in your own thread, which not only deprives us of the enjoyment of doing so, but generally makes the forums a less fun place to be.
So do you see how working together makes this a happier, more fun environment to foster deep thought? I hope so and I hope you have a pleasant evening

Enlighten me then, please, as to what you are talking about, because you talked a lot about gender politics in the post I responded to, and now suddenly my response is akin to derailment, even though the thread seems to center around gender politics, and I'm suddenly terribly confused as to what this conversation was actually meant to be.

I appreciate your cordiality and cooperation. OP is "I like looking at sexy, out-of-the-realm-of-reality people when I view my over-the-top power fantasy escapist entertainment, and am very annoyed by the people who insist that this is something I should be ashamed of, because no woman looks like Lulu in real life, and no man is sexy, sexy reno. Rambling to follow because I'm not very good at organizing my thoughts" Thankfully, you already have said you agree with my position that fictional people don't need to look realistic or even ugly in order to be compelling, and therefore sexy people are okay to have around, which means we don't need to be at eachother's throats over an issue that may or may not exist. In celebration, I offer you the cheese of friendship:

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Pretty sure that is gay porn... for gay dudes... so your comparison isn't apt. Unless you are trying to say that looking at this stuff is for women what looking at gay porn is to a straight man. In which case, I don't see it. Sorry, I just completely fail to get what you are trying to say here. Please rephrase

That's pretty much what comic book females look like to straight women. Every body part is over sexualised and they are twisted into ridiculous poses.

It's basically porn with clothes on.

I'm trying to give you an idea of how it looks from our perspective. How it makes us feel, which is pretty damn uncomfortable.

We aren't asking for comic book females to be ugly we are asking for them to be more than pin up girls.

Ah, I see. Fair enough. Still, if you want to send me gay porn, you should know i'd prefer pretty ones. Like Reno. Mmm, Reno. You evil murderous clown. <3

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Pretty sure that is gay porn... for gay dudes... so your comparison isn't apt. Unless you are trying to say that looking at this stuff is for women what looking at gay porn is to a straight man. In which case, I don't see it. Sorry, I just completely fail to get what you are trying to say here. Please rephrase

That's pretty much what comic book females look like to straight women. Every body part is over sexualised and they are twisted into ridiculous poses.

It's basically porn with clothes on.

I'm trying to give you an idea of how it looks from our perspective. How it makes us feel, which is pretty damn uncomfortable.

We aren't asking for comic book females to be ugly we are asking for them to be more than pin up girls.

Ah, I see. Fair enough. Still, if you want to send me gay porn, you should know i'd prefer pretty ones. Like Reno. Mmm, Reno. You evil murderous clown. <3

Nuh uh Clowns are scary. D:

Did you know some comic book artists actually trace porn to draw scenes with female characters?

I find that pretty funny. xD

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Pretty sure that is gay porn... for gay dudes... so your comparison isn't apt. Unless you are trying to say that looking at this stuff is for women what looking at gay porn is to a straight man. In which case, I don't see it. Sorry, I just completely fail to get what you are trying to say here. Please rephrase

That's pretty much what comic book females look like to straight women. Every body part is over sexualised and they are twisted into ridiculous poses.

It's basically porn with clothes on.

I'm trying to give you an idea of how it looks from our perspective. How it makes us feel, which is pretty damn uncomfortable.

We aren't asking for comic book females to be ugly we are asking for them to be more than pin up girls.

Ah, I see. Fair enough. Still, if you want to send me gay porn, you should know i'd prefer pretty ones. Like Reno. Mmm, Reno. You evil murderous clown. <3

Nuh uh Clowns are scary. D:

Did you know some comic book artists actually trace porn to draw scenes with female characters?

I find that pretty funny. xD

Reno isn't a literal clown, you dingbat! He's a sexy lithe monster who is also comic relief. Because Japan.
Dingbat is a fun word. I say we should bring it back, you and me. Together. Then we can play some 2-player FFVII together like charlie's angels

 

[Moonlight Butterfly]

Pretty sure that is gay porn... for gay dudes... so your comparison isn't apt. Unless you are trying to say that looking at this stuff is for women what looking at gay porn is to a straight man. In which case, I don't see it. Sorry, I just completely fail to get what you are trying to say here. Please rephrase

That's pretty much what comic book females look like to straight women. Every body part is over sexualised and they are twisted into ridiculous poses.

It's basically porn with clothes on.

I'm trying to give you an idea of how it looks from our perspective. How it makes us feel, which is pretty damn uncomfortable.

We aren't asking for comic book females to be ugly we are asking for them to be more than pin up girls.

Ah, I see. Fair enough. Still, if you want to send me gay porn, you should know i'd prefer pretty ones. Like Reno. Mmm, Reno. You evil murderous clown. <3

Nuh uh Clowns are scary. D:

Did you know some comic book artists actually trace porn to draw scenes with female characters?

I find that pretty funny. xD

Reno isn't a literal clown, you dingbat! He's a sexy lithe monster who is also comic relief. Because Japan.
Dingbat is a fun word. I say we should bring it back, you and me. Together. Then we can play some 2-player FFVII together like charlie's angels

My name is Charlie so that would work. My nickname among my friends is Harley though...I also like the word 'kerfuffle'.

You should check this site out it is pretty funny. They point out when girls are horribly twisted into scary poses.

http://eschergirls.tumblr.com

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Let everyman be their own judge, but the school girl outfit did bother me... so did that one kid that was like "I wanna marry her!" and his friend was all "but dude she's 8!" and the guy was all "I don't care, I'll wait!"

See, I didn't see this as sexual in any way. You know why you SHOULD be bothered? Because a sweet little girl just shot a man's face off. Not because there are people out there who think uniforms are sexy.

And the line about marrying her doesn't seem to stem from any fetishes, but rather from awe at her abilities. The line about "waiting" for her is precisely WHY it isn't creepy and pedophilic
He is a nerd who idolizes people who are capable of committing acts of violence beyond any level he could achieve, and wants to attach himself to this perpetrator of violence because she meets this idealized form of carnage he craves

IT SHOULD BE DISTURBING HE LOVES VIOLENCE THIS MUCH
Which is kind of the point of Kick-Ass in the first place. It serves to MOCK violence and shame us for seeing it as entertainment

If that was ever the intended theme, the movie didn't do the job well at all at making the audience feel uncomfortable with the violence. the movie did a much better job with that movie SUPER.

That's the point. It shouldn't need to be lampshaded, the idea is that you should consider this wrong on your own, you sick demented lunatic. Note, I do not believe you are a sick demented lunatic, I am merely using colorful phrase to illustrate the movie's point. So please don't feel I am insulting you. Kick-Ass is insulting you. And everyone who read or watched it.

Eh... I'm not buying it. Theres no turning point where the same violence we love turns on us and makes us feel uncomfortable. Maybe that is the overall theme, but the movie didn't make that point across.

Super had loads a violence too put in for gags and violence sake.... then you have the scene where a guy cuts in line and gets bashed in the head with a wrench incredibly graphically... and it's still sorta funny but disturbing.... Then by the time Bolty dies the violence is pretty hard to watch.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

This is not 'a petty annoyance'

Well thank you for reassuring me, but I'm pretty sure my annoyance at the topic I'm discussing is ENTIRELY petty, and fairly unimportant in the grand scheme of things, especially when compared to the issue you THINK I'm discussing. Which isn't what I'm talking about.

Why don't you go make your OWN thread to discuss all these points, and I'll debate them THERE with you? That sounds nice, doesn't it? Either way, I have to ask you to stop trying to hijack my thread by discussing other issues. It's just poor forum etiquette, and it makes me angry with you, which makes me not want to treat your responses as valid, intelligent entries, but rather as wild poop-flinging and shouting, which isn't fair to you. It also provokes me into derisive behavior, which would get ME into trouble, and inspire you to respond in kind, which would get you in trouble. Then we wouldn't be able to have a scintillating intellectual conversation in your own thread, which not only deprives us of the enjoyment of doing so, but generally makes the forums a less fun place to be.
So do you see how working together makes this a happier, more fun environment to foster deep thought? I hope so and I hope you have a pleasant evening

Enlighten me then, please, as to what you are talking about, because you talked a lot about gender politics in the post I responded to, and now suddenly my response is akin to derailment, even though the thread seems to center around gender politics, and I'm suddenly terribly confused as to what this conversation was actually meant to be.

I appreciate your cordiality and cooperation. OP is "I like looking at sexy, out-of-the-realm-of-reality people when I view my over-the-top power fantasy escapist entertainment, and am very annoyed by the people who insist that this is something I should be ashamed of, because no woman looks like Lulu in real life, and no man is sexy, sexy reno. Rambling to follow because I'm not very good at organizing my thoughts" Thankfully, you already have said you agree with my position that fictional people don't need to look realistic or even ugly in order to be compelling, and therefore sexy people are okay to have around, which means we don't need to be at eachother's throats over an issue that may or may not exist. In celebration, I offer you the cheese of friendship:

Well, okay, fine. I'll allow that oogling teh boobies is a fun pastime, and one that I myself enjoy on occasion. Hetero males are hetero and males (and the respective statements are true of all other sex/gender/sexuality combinations). I bought and adore Skullgirls primarily because I like all the jiggling.

But that's never the only reason I buy something, because people should always be aware of what is going on in the bigger picture. It is never a good idea to completely dismiss aspects of reasoning - whether your own or someone else's - because they do not mesh with your beliefs.

There are larger issues at play, and it's always good to be well informed and open minded about them. Especially because, as we've just seen, it's very easy to get caught up in passionate argument over them. Anger leads to hate, and so on and so forth.

On a closer to home note, there are several webcomic artists and comics journalists who dissect why hypersexualization of females often leads to massive failures in anatomy that ought to be jarring to anybody who knows how a spine works. I'll try to dig up examples for discussion, and get back to you.

Also, swiss. Mmm. Now I want pattymelts.

Simple: I'll become a writer for DC or Marvel, and establish that in these universes, spines are made of sterner stuff than our crappy NORMAL spines. Thats why superheroes can be so much more agile and flexible than we would be able to

Soblem prolved