In Defence of Frank Miller

[Kolby Jack]

It not that women are portrayed sexily, it's that that's ALL they're good for in Miller comics. He's a misogynist. When he isn't having woman cause problems or being completely reliant on the men around them, he's portraying them as nothing but sexual objects. I think that's why people don't like how he portrays women. I'm all for having fictional women be sexy, but they should still be, ya know, PEOPLE. With convictions and motivations and personality beyond "I want the male hero inside me."

Okay but what if thats the only stories he wants to write? Should he only write what society finds acceptable?

If he wants to make money or not be called a talentless hack, yea. He can write whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to face criticism when he decides to publish it.

Frank-ly (nyuk nyuk nyuk), I'm not a fan of his writing style in general, but that's just because I'm a more upbeat kind of person who enjoys watching characters have fun in their worlds and not taking everything so seriously. Every story Miller writes is in a crapsack world, and I just don't like that. Again, personal preference. But there's no denying his portrayal of women is just... really, really awful. If you look at some of the quotes from him during the writing and character design process, you'll see what I mean. They're out there if you want to see them; I at least know Linkara cites a few as a reason for his disliking of Frank Miller.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

It not that women are portrayed sexily, it's that that's ALL they're good for in Miller comics. He's a misogynist.

Are you sure you mean misogynist? Does Miller really have a hatred of women? Like really a hatred, like the kind that he KKK has.

Probably, yeah. He's a weird dude.

Do you have any proof? Sexism isn't the same a misogyny.

 

[Vausch]

Yeah, no. See, the over-sexualisation of Miller's women tends to not only come from the bodies, but also because Miller himself is outright saying he's only doing it to be titillating and to appease both himself and the audience. Seriously, have you read the script for All-Star Batman and Robin? He's putting on a 4th wall breaking strip-tease for the 14-year-olds reading and for himself, nothing more.

Here's another big problem, all of the female characters Miller writes as of late, and ASBAR especially, run on the mindset that they're after men. More specifically Bruce, but in the 5 issues I got through I didn't see 2 named female characters talk to each other, and their conversations more often than not were taken up mostly by the dialogue "I'm having a date with Bruce Wayne" or implying that Bruce is the reason Black Canary is a badass just for being who he is.

Miller wrote some great comics, but now he's devolved into a sexist homophobic nut. I long for the day I can read a Miller comic that doesn't either hurt my eyes from terrible art or torgo syndrome dialogue.

 

[Alleged_Alec]

I do seem to recall something about a script for one of his batman comics, in which he was constantly telling to the artist about how some woman's ass should be as prominently featured as possible over several pages. I like some of the guy's earlier works, but most of what he's written in the last few years is just crap. Not just because of his idea that women are just for sexing up his comics, but also because... Well, they're just bad.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

It not that women are portrayed sexily, it's that that's ALL they're good for in Miller comics. He's a misogynist. When he isn't having woman cause problems or being completely reliant on the men around them, he's portraying them as nothing but sexual objects. I think that's why people don't like how he portrays women. I'm all for having fictional women be sexy, but they should still be, ya know, PEOPLE. With convictions and motivations and personality beyond "I want the male hero inside me."

Okay but what if thats the only stories he wants to write? Should he only write what society finds acceptable?

If he wants to make money or not be called a talentless hack, yea. He can write whatever he wants, but he should be prepared to face criticism when he decides to publish it.

Frank-ly (nyuk nyuk nyuk), I'm not a fan of his writing style in general, but that's just because I'm a more upbeat kind of person who enjoys watching characters have fun in their worlds and not taking everything so seriously. Every story Miller writes is in a crapsack world, and I just don't like that. Again, personal preference. But there's no denying his portrayal of women is just... really, really awful. If you look at some of the quotes from him during the writing and character design process, you'll see what I mean. They're out there if you want to see them; I at least know Linkara cites a few as a reason for his disliking of Frank Miller.

A hack is someone that takes a job that he's not interested in doing just for the money. You're contradicting yourself.

Complaining about the way Miller portrays women in his comics is like bitching that John Woo's films have to many bullets and doves in it. It's just Miller's style. It may not be the best stories told ever, but you got to admit as far as exploitative male power fantasy writing goes Miller is pretty damn good at it.

 

[Dastardly]

Well written, reasonable and persuasive sir. I also felt hyper masculine characters needed to be addressed as well but people keep throwing up flak about them being fantasy self-images for men that is true HOWEVER it does not change the fact that they are unreasonable depictions of men and correspondingly hold up sexist attitudes of what a man should be.

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time finding anywhere a single man who is genuinely offended by the portrayal of men in God of War or Superman. I do find a lot of men who act offended on behalf of those imaginary men, though.

That aside, the reason it's different:

1. Superman/Kratos/etc. are shown as big and muscled because that is a symbol of Strength. And men, historically, have preferred idols that are strong (and that appear strong). Everything about the portrayal of these characters emphasizes Strength and Capability. And that portrayal is 100% about it's appeal to men (power fantasy), because mostly men buy the comics/games that feature them.

2. Power Girl's notorious "boob window." What's that about? Is that something directed at women? Is that a "power fantasy" women have? No. Does it speak to the Strength or Capability of Power Girl? Or does it just emphasize the "Girl" part of her name? What's more, who is the character designed to appeal to? Men. Because mostly men buy the comics.

So it's not just what they're showing. It's why they're showing it and who they want to look. Kratos isn't designed to be "sexy." He's designed to be the Ultimate Dude. There is no evidence anywhere to indicate that Kratos was originally designed to appeal to the sexual appetites of women.

We could also get into how pornography turns men into nothing but a phallus but I'm gonna keep is pg-13

Pretty weak stuff, right there. The reason men in porn are reduced to "nothing but a phallus" is because they know it's mostly men watching, and they're focused on the woman. In most cases, the guy is trying to avoid looking at or thinking about the guy, so of course he doesn't play a huge role (some pun intended).

You're trying to compare the most superficial elements of each example, which is like comparing apples and fireman helmets because they're both red. You have to look at the clearly demonstrated intent -- is this designed to appeal to one gender over the other? Which gender makes up the largest percentage of the customer base?

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Yeah, no. See, the over-sexualisation of Miller's women tends to not only come from the bodies, but also because Miller himself is outright saying he's only doing it to be titillating and to appease both himself and the audience. Seriously, have you read the script for All-Star Batman and Robin? He's putting on a 4th wall breaking strip-tease for the 14-year-olds reading and for himself, nothing more.

Here's another big problem, all of the female characters Miller writes as of late, and ASBAR especially, run on the mindset that they're after men. More specifically Bruce, but in the 5 issues I got through I didn't see 2 named female characters talk to each other, and their conversations more often than not were taken up mostly by the dialogue "I'm having a date with Bruce Wayne" or implying that Bruce is the reason Black Canary is a badass just for being who he is.

Miller wrote some great comics, but now he's devolved into a sexist homophobic nut. I long for the day I can read a Miller comic that doesn't either hurt my eyes from terrible art or torgo syndrome dialogue.

So Miller admits that the sole point of it is simply sexploitation for the sake of sexploitation... Again, whats the problem? It works. He's good at writing it. He's not pretending it's some pretentious bullshit with a deep meaning.

 

[maninahat]

I just hate him for his moronic homophobic lines from most of his comics. Trying to be gritty and dark while just sounding like a prick doesn't give me much reason to like him or his work.

Edit: Found the line from Sin City that was just... Stupid:
"Lucille's my parole officer. She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants." Lovely writing right there... How does this person have fans again?

Isn't she the only woman in the series [collective works of Frank Miller] who isn't a prostitute?

 

[Dastardly]

Do you have any proof? Sexism isn't the same a misogyny.

It's unreasonable to ask for "proof." Evidence, however, is plenty.

A sexist might just portray all of his women as the girlfriends/wives/sexual partners of the featured male characters. Or all of the capable, participatory women would be in costumes that emphasize their bodies and/or sexuality.

But to almost exclusively place women as victims or as prostitutes? Both of those are lower-tier positions on the social hierarchy. Both are directly subservient to men, no matter how "dominatrix" they make the prostitute angle look. The women are dependent on the men for protection and/or income, across the board.

That kind of intentional and universal degradation (literally "lowering the grade of") women can be seen as a bit more hostile than casual sexism.

 

[teebeeohh]

the problem is not the existence of sexy women in media, it's the fact that in a lot of things (and miller is right on the money in this regard) women only exist as either a) super models b) ridiculously fat and/or ugly.
this is especially bad in media that does not rely on the image of actual people since while you can run out of pretty women who also happen to have the particular skillset you need you will never run out of pixels.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Do you have any proof? Sexism isn't the same a misogyny.

It's unreasonable to ask for "proof." Evidence, however, is plenty.

A sexist might just portray all of his women as the girlfriends/wives/sexual partners of the featured male characters. Or all of the capable, participatory women would be in costumes that emphasize their bodies and/or sexuality.

But to almost exclusively place women as victims or as prostitutes? Both of those are lower-tier positions on the social hierarchy. Both are directly subservient to men, no matter how "dominatrix" they make the prostitute angle look. The women are dependent on the men for protection and/or income, across the board.

That kind of intentional and universal degradation (literally "lowering the grade of") women can be seen as a bit more hostile than casual sexism.

Perhaps "proof" was a poor choice of words.

That just seems sexist to me. That doesn't seem like he actually hates women.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I just hate him for his moronic homophobic lines from most of his comics. Trying to be gritty and dark while just sounding like a prick doesn't give me much reason to like him or his work.

Edit: Found the line from Sin City that was just... Stupid:
"Lucille's my parole officer. She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants." Lovely writing right there... How does this person have fans again?

Isn't she the only woman in the series [collective works of Frank Miller] who isn't a prostitute?

Didn't he write KickAss? I'm pretty sure HitGirl isn't blowing anyone.

 

[Kahunaburger]

It not that women are portrayed sexily, it's that that's ALL they're good for in Miller comics. He's a misogynist.

Are you sure you mean misogynist? Does Miller really have a hatred of women? Like really a hatred, like the kind that he KKK has.

Probably, yeah. He's a weird dude.

Do you have any proof? Sexism isn't the same a misogyny.

Other than his comics, you mean? They're practically dripping with the whole "I don't get laid much and have a hard time wrapping my head around the notion that people with two X chromosomes are people" thing. Also unresolved anger issues re: women.

 

[Dastardly]

That just seems sexist to me. That doesn't seem like he actually hates women.

It can be a subtle difference. Here's an illustration, as I see it:

SEXIST: A boss always giving the best assignments to male workers.
MISOGYNIST: A boss always giving the worst assignments to female workers.

There's a zone between the two where you might lose track of which is happening, but the difference is intent.

Frank Miller could be just giving the "best roles" to male characters, leaving the female characters with the inconsequential or just "okay" roles... but instead, he seems to be going out of his way to give them the worst roles. Physically, even sexually, subservient to men.

It's not just the kind of benign neglect that often comes with plain sexism. It's just a bit more specific than that, to my eye.

 

[malestrithe]

Didn't he write KickAss? I'm pretty sure HitGirl isn't blowing anyone.

Mark Millar wrote Kick Ass.

 

[Dastardly]

Didn't he write KickAss? I'm pretty sure HitGirl isn't blowing anyone.

"Child" takes higher priority than "Female" when deciding how to portray a character, for a lot of writers. (Seriously, consider just how many kid characters are effectively genderless...)

 

[maninahat]

I just hate him for his moronic homophobic lines from most of his comics. Trying to be gritty and dark while just sounding like a prick doesn't give me much reason to like him or his work.

Edit: Found the line from Sin City that was just... Stupid:
"Lucille's my parole officer. She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants." Lovely writing right there... How does this person have fans again?

Isn't she the only woman in the series [collective works of Frank Miller] who isn't a prostitute?

Didn't he write KickAss? I'm pretty sure HitGirl isn't blowing anyone.

No, that's Mark Miller. Though for the record, there were a few paedophile, loli gags at the expense of her and her inappropriately fetishistic outfit. At least in the movie, anyway.

 

[DudeistBelieve]

I just hate him for his moronic homophobic lines from most of his comics. Trying to be gritty and dark while just sounding like a prick doesn't give me much reason to like him or his work.

Edit: Found the line from Sin City that was just... Stupid:
"Lucille's my parole officer. She's a dyke, but God knows why. With that body of hers she could have any man she wants." Lovely writing right there... How does this person have fans again?

Isn't she the only woman in the series [collective works of Frank Miller] who isn't a prostitute?

Didn't he write KickAss? I'm pretty sure HitGirl isn't blowing anyone.

No, that's Mark Miller. Though for the record, there were a few paedophile, loli gags at the expense of her and her inappropriately fetishistic outfit. At least in the movie, anyway.

Yes, i've been corrected. And you're right, they did oddly sexualize that little girl.

 

[Vausch]

Yeah, no. See, the over-sexualisation of Miller's women tends to not only come from the bodies, but also because Miller himself is outright saying he's only doing it to be titillating and to appease both himself and the audience. Seriously, have you read the script for All-Star Batman and Robin? He's putting on a 4th wall breaking strip-tease for the 14-year-olds reading and for himself, nothing more.

Here's another big problem, all of the female characters Miller writes as of late, and ASBAR especially, run on the mindset that they're after men. More specifically Bruce, but in the 5 issues I got through I didn't see 2 named female characters talk to each other, and their conversations more often than not were taken up mostly by the dialogue "I'm having a date with Bruce Wayne" or implying that Bruce is the reason Black Canary is a badass just for being who he is.

Miller wrote some great comics, but now he's devolved into a sexist homophobic nut. I long for the day I can read a Miller comic that doesn't either hurt my eyes from terrible art or torgo syndrome dialogue.

So Miller admits that the sole point of it is simply sexploitation for the sake of sexploitation... Again, whats the problem? It works. He's good at writing it. He's not pretending it's some pretentious bullshit with a deep meaning.

No, he isn't. Miller's writing has gotten horrible frequently repeating a stupid sentence or phrase over and over, and I could be wrong but shouldn't a book titled "All-Star Batman and Robin" focus on, I dunno, BATMAN AND ROBIN? Besides, the only reason ASBAR even works on that level is because of Jim Lee's artwork, if Miller were put in charge of that you'd get more titillation from XKCD.

And yes, he is still trying to get a meaning across with a lot of his stories. He's trying to get across in ASBAR that Batman is the best superhero ever and every other hero is dumb. He's just bringing in a lot of crap to pad out an already bad story.