you werent paying attention, it is supposed to NOT need lampshading. And either way, you're wrong. In the film, we have Big Daddy in the chair.SaneAmongInsane said:
In Defence of Frank Miller
- Thread starter userwhoquitthesite
- Start date
Recommended Videos
True, I'm just saying that she isn't 2D.JimB said:
-_- I just pointed out that he isn't a rapist....JimB said:
*Starts reaming summary* Well lets look at thi-JimB said:
...Who ever created FATAL seems "special".JimB said:
Like I said, I'll give you that Miller likes to pick an choose what historical points he uses, but i still think its going to bit far to call them misogynistic. How about we agree that he is a sexist writer that can't seem to do anything but make the same female character over and over again and only changes their face and name?
It was rhetorical, but I'll save you the effort by answering "no".JimB said:
Her name might be Japanese, but you don't know if she is American or not. Nationality=/=Ethnicity.JimB said:
I'm just making the point that is seems silly to call her a ninja because if the justification is that she uses a sword while other people use guns, I go back to my point about Violet Song being a ninja. If I was to point out what could be considered a modern version of a Ninja, I guess I would go with Ryu Hayabusa.
It wasn't lampshaded in super, there isn't a moment where it's addressed, the violence just gradually grows and grows till reaches a point where it's more horror then humor.8-Bit_Jack said:
Couldn't sympathize with Big Daddy. He was a pyschopath too and killed people just the same.... Though truth be told now that I remember it, I do recall being disturbed by the scene where he raids the warehouse. Something about Batman using a gun is unsettling.
I enjoy Miller's work, mostly, both in film adaptation and the original graphic novel format. He's (done) a lot of good work, though his more recent entries have left me ambivalent to cold.
There's a very traditional damsels-in-distress + voluptuous vixen story beat from the kinda hyper - noire delivery he's made a career out of. I don't feel I can speak on Miller's personal outlook other than to say that like most other comic writers, he's an unsual fellow. Most comic authors tend to be politically left leaning to varying degrees, whereas Miller seems to have more of a right wing "America the Brave" neo-conservative outlook. I don't know if it directly influences his writing in obvious ways, but it could explain some of the stereotyped gender roles.
But does he hate women? No, I don't think so. I think writing more full female characters, or from a female perceptive might be a particular ability that eludes him as a writer, standing in contrast to his proficiency with snappy dialogue, pacing and gritty art. Like most creators, he's got some especial strengths that he plays to and his handling of female characters along with the tone of his stories could well just be the byproduct of an earnest but mishandled attempt at crafting compelling female characters. Whatever agenda he has, I don't think women really have a big part in it and consequently end up out of focus, in the background of his stories... Admittedly, in which he pours the pain on ALL his characters, something fierce.
I could be completely wrong about everything, but that's my take.
Also, whether it's done to be provocative or for genuine feeling, worrying about the subtext of Miller's work kinda takes a back seat when I hear real, blood chilling misogyny like this:
There's a very traditional damsels-in-distress + voluptuous vixen story beat from the kinda hyper - noire delivery he's made a career out of. I don't feel I can speak on Miller's personal outlook other than to say that like most other comic writers, he's an unsual fellow. Most comic authors tend to be politically left leaning to varying degrees, whereas Miller seems to have more of a right wing "America the Brave" neo-conservative outlook. I don't know if it directly influences his writing in obvious ways, but it could explain some of the stereotyped gender roles.
But does he hate women? No, I don't think so. I think writing more full female characters, or from a female perceptive might be a particular ability that eludes him as a writer, standing in contrast to his proficiency with snappy dialogue, pacing and gritty art. Like most creators, he's got some especial strengths that he plays to and his handling of female characters along with the tone of his stories could well just be the byproduct of an earnest but mishandled attempt at crafting compelling female characters. Whatever agenda he has, I don't think women really have a big part in it and consequently end up out of focus, in the background of his stories... Admittedly, in which he pours the pain on ALL his characters, something fierce.
I could be completely wrong about everything, but that's my take.
Also, whether it's done to be provocative or for genuine feeling, worrying about the subtext of Miller's work kinda takes a back seat when I hear real, blood chilling misogyny like this:
It's very common for people who argue that homosexuality can (and should) be cured to claim gays are gay because they have had 'bad experiences' with the opposite sex, or haven't met the right heterosexual partner.Vault101 said:
Add hatred in the mix, and you have a pretty disturbing power-fantasy there...
It's also among the most common insults to lesbians by heterosexual men; that they need a dick. But that might be because the kind of people who would say/yell something like that to lesbians are the kind of people who would say similar things to heterosexual women as well, because they see the threat(or suggestion) of a rape as a way to speak to women...
As for the OP, it's okay to have sexy female characters, it's okay to have sex in comics, but you should do that right.
Also, I don't find the common body-type of women in the US comics sexy. I also dislike how most artists seem to draw the men ridiculously muscular. That just looks silly to me most of the time.
I've seen you bring up that Tom of Finland guys work before in one of the many other threads on this topic before and I really don't think it;s a fair comparison.Moonlight Butterfly said:
Women in comics are drawn with insane figures, huge gravity defying breasts and twisted into impossible positions.
But unless it's a porn comic they usually don't draw them with huge pronounced nipples and the outline of their genitalia showing through their trousers like most of that guys pictures do (the ones that aren't full on sex).
It wasn't me it was someone else. I just thought it was a good comparison.Skipper zammo said:
Women are very often portrayed with pronounced nipples and crotch in normal comics especially cat woman.
There are many examples of metal armour cameltoe for example.
It's exactly the same but most men can't see it because they are happy with the way things are for obvious reasons.
Just look at that Escher girls blog for how ridiculous things can get.
Frank Miller has some great work. I won't call him misogynst or sexist, as people forget he wrote Martha Washington. I refuse to make any sort of judgement until I've read that.
I will say Miller's writing hints towards a troubled relationship with how he visualizes and internalizes the female sex. He just tends to use female characters in the same ways and it's boring. After awhile the females stop being people and become some sort of window dressing. Worst yet he seems to apply the same style again and again, so we get window dressing everywhere. His style tends to kind of come across as a variation of the whole Maddonna-Whore complex. He writes pretty crap filled worlds, but at this point Frank Miller is a parody of himself, where gritty equals profanity, women will be tortured, women will be whores, and the hero either is or becomes an anti-hero.
The problem is not that society hates sex. No it's that people are becoming tired of every female character being broken, dependent on a man, or about sex. It's fine to enjoy sex, but often its a weapon against females. If you enjoy sex, particularly casual sex, you're a whore, and if you don't you're killed, or you're raped.
I like to say that you can't have a female Seth Rogan unless she's fat and funny. There are not any average female characters or not sexy females, and it's unrealistic. Part of the problem is related to artists who can't do bodily variation. Not every female has HUGE breasts, or a perfect figure. Not every female is going to dress provocatively once she becomes a hero.
Male heroes are power fantasies. The perfect physique, the personality, the heroes journey, etc.
Female heroes are often sexual fantasies. The perfect body...umm...tight clothes
Male Villians are varied in appearance
Most female villians are equated with sexuality or being old(which is a thing thats always been around, but should change)
I will say Miller's writing hints towards a troubled relationship with how he visualizes and internalizes the female sex. He just tends to use female characters in the same ways and it's boring. After awhile the females stop being people and become some sort of window dressing. Worst yet he seems to apply the same style again and again, so we get window dressing everywhere. His style tends to kind of come across as a variation of the whole Maddonna-Whore complex. He writes pretty crap filled worlds, but at this point Frank Miller is a parody of himself, where gritty equals profanity, women will be tortured, women will be whores, and the hero either is or becomes an anti-hero.
The problem is not that society hates sex. No it's that people are becoming tired of every female character being broken, dependent on a man, or about sex. It's fine to enjoy sex, but often its a weapon against females. If you enjoy sex, particularly casual sex, you're a whore, and if you don't you're killed, or you're raped.
I like to say that you can't have a female Seth Rogan unless she's fat and funny. There are not any average female characters or not sexy females, and it's unrealistic. Part of the problem is related to artists who can't do bodily variation. Not every female has HUGE breasts, or a perfect figure. Not every female is going to dress provocatively once she becomes a hero.
Male heroes are power fantasies. The perfect physique, the personality, the heroes journey, etc.
Female heroes are often sexual fantasies. The perfect body...umm...tight clothes
Male Villians are varied in appearance
Most female villians are equated with sexuality or being old(which is a thing thats always been around, but should change)
Well I can honestly say I don't remember ever seeing it and I read quite a lot of comics.Moonlight Butterfly said:
And the comparison is there, I just think that particular artists stuff goes much too far.
That one mock up of the avengers poster were all the characters are posed in ways similar to Black Widow is a better example.
Personally I think the best thing to do would be to tone down the worse offenders in this regard to the way women are drawn and start doing it more with male character.
They already do it some with Nightwing. there was that one issue where the cover was basically just a close up of his arse.
I think the best thing would be to start drawing women more realistically and with a bit more respect also with a spine and internal organs.Skipper zammo said:
There is no reason to do it to male characters that just seems a silly way to deal with it.
Because physiques in comics aren't always realistic whether they're male or female. Some artists are just very stylised. So instead of making every one draw the same way, why not to balance out the way people are drawn so it's less sexist. Instead of just drawing men in unrealistic pose that make them look powerful and threatening and women in poses that display their rockin' bods why not mix it up a bit. have both genders have some of column A and some of Column B.Moonlight Butterfly said:
what is that?..some kind of performance poetry? I could only get to 2:50....to me mabye it isnt geniunly promoting violence against women...but made to make us feel disturbed/shock (I usually have a high tolerance for things but this really did make me feel uncomfortable)II2 said: