In Defence of Frank Miller

[userwhoquitthesite]

snip

this is the most amazing thing I have ever heard. What dark corner did you drag this out of?

 

[DudeistBelieve]

Ya know I wrote a story where the main character called a gay character an abomination, does that mean I hate gay people too?

There are probably better lines to use against Frank, but a line like that really gives insight into the perpetual loneliness of Harv... ya know the guy with such low self-esteem because he looks so ugly, and here he is staring at a beautiful woman and he doesn't understand why shes gay (no shit, does he seem like a guy whos well educated?) his only assumption is she's gay because he figues she can't get a man which is absurd to him. Ironic considering how he himself has a kind and noble personality that he could get a girlfriend if he actually tried.

There's more lines I could have used? I've only read some of Sin City and got tired of his attempts and being gritty, he comes off more as an angst driven teen wanting to prove some point that he's not afraid to write things down or whatever. If your on about just the character of him being lonely there's more than a handful of ones of those in the opening chapters of Sin City where he says he's some ugly thingy and the woman he slept with is some life saving angel or something.

Oh you wrote a story too where someone said that? Well obviously I don't like you either now, because it's just like his work where homophobia comes in now and again throughout most of your stories like him.

If you wrote it well then fine it's a thing that drives one of the characters emotions, if it's just there because the guys a horny dude that want's to have sex with every female in the story then I think I'm entitled to think his work is just crap.

edit - Also forget the sarcasm in my post, just hate it when people start off theirs to me with one of those "Dur" questions... It ain't appreciated. <.<

Yeah I struggle over using it because I was afraid ignorant fools would assume I was spouting off my views through my characters instead of taking it as I intended, to give a very dark unlikeable characteristic to the main-character because I wanted him to be unsympathetic. But no, clearly I must be homophobic for it and I'm sure Frank beats and rapes women.

Heres the thing dude, thats Frank Miller. The hell do you expect when you pick up his books? It's like going to a Pixar film and complaining that it's a CGI film.

 

[Arsen]

I'm not even gonna read this nor bat an eye at any bland, misdirected attempts at making Frank Miller out to be a shithead. The man has wrote some of the most fascinating pieces of graphic novel storyline, content, and atmosphere in the history of the form.

Are women portrayed as prostitutes? Undeniably so.
Does he do it in a negative way? ABSOLUTELY NOT.

That's the point of his work. They are down and out people who have had to succumb to such low examples of getting by. The point of the matter (same with the rest of his characters) is the fact that they still have higher morals, standards, and codes of human ethic than the rest of the higher end people within society.

Even his male characters, from an outside view, seem to be "horrible people". That's the point.

*shakes head, walks away in disbelief*

 

[General Twinkletoes]

It's only a problem because every single woman is like that. There are no realistic female characters at all. The only reason they're there is for eyecandy, which is where it starts to become a problem.

 

[CaptainMarvelous]

If we're defending Frank Miller, anyone got a view on Holy Terror? Because I can remember skimming that and feeling my IQ drop withe every page. Not to discredit how it's probably sexist in a couple of ways it's main issues, for me at least, were that every "Muslim is a Terrorist" and "This Hezbollah agent has the star of David TATTOOED ON HIS FACE"

Captcha: That's enough. I think it is, Frank Miller. I think it is...

 

[maninahat]

Isn't she the only woman in the series [collective works of Frank Miller] who isn't a prostitute?

I really have no idea, I've never read much more of his work from some of Sin City and just heard the rest from people and their readings of his work. The main thing is it just doesn't seem good, homophobic at times sure but just his writing style isn't my thing and all that.

With Sin City, Frank Miller falls into the trap of trying to pay too much lip service to harboiled and film noir conventions. That's why characters (always male) narrate non-stop for hours at a time, mixing metaphors and god awful monologues to describe the things we can already see perfectly well in the pictures. See also Alan Moore's Hellblazer and Max Payne for further examples of "Noir on steroids (and painkillers)".

 

[Arsen]

It's only a problem because every single woman is like that. There are no realistic female characters at all. The only reason they're there is for eyecandy, which is where it starts to become a problem.

Um. No.

The prostitute part is vital to the story and gritty atmosphere of it all. That's the point: They are the underworld protagonist types. Not necessarily sexist, but a viewpoint showing that even the most low of people can do good things.

 

[JimB]

Did you know some comic book artists actually trace porn to draw scenes with female characters?

Greg Land is the only person I've heard accused of that. Do you know any other names?

I just pointed out that he isn't a rapist...

Yeah, you did. Sorry. I'm still trying to adjust my thinking to accept a man making that face causing a woman to make that face as something other than a rapist. He's just a john, just a john, just a john...

Like I said, I'll give you that Miller likes to pick an choose what historical points he uses, but I still think it's going a bit too far to call them misogynistic.

Sure. I was just belatedly explaining why I brought that up.

Nationality=/=Ethnicity.

Fair enough.

 

[Dastardly]

Media being a reflection of life DOES reflect this but to say male targeted sexism in MEDIA doesn't exist is naive.

I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm saying that, while it's technically sexism, it's not the same problem. Being able to put the same label on two issues doesn't make them analogous or equivalent.

Accidentally bumping a pole in the parking lot is "a car accident." Driving drunk and slamming head-on into a van full of kids is also "a car accident." They differ in how destructive they are, how many people they impact, and what level of bad decision making made them happen.

Another parallel could be found in racism. Take two commonly-held stereotypes in America:

1. Asians are good at math.
2. Blacks are good at sports.

These are both stereotypes. Some might say that, superficially, they're even positive stereotypes. But even a slightly-more-than-casual observation would show how both of these are harmful... and it's obvious that one is more harmful than the other.

Saying "Asians are good at math" could create unrealistic expectations that every Asian will excel in mathematical tasks. The could, at some point, be destructive to someone's perception of Asians, or an Asian's perception of themselves. At the same time, being "good at math" affords someone a lot of ability to choose career paths, and generally to determine their own path in life, so someone trying to "live up to" this stereotype is in only mild danger of creating problems compared to...

...saying "Blacks are good at sports." While it might seem like a compliment, it creates a lot of problems even today. For one, it causes a lot of people to pigeonhole the black population into sports/physical activities. It is a "compliment" that is nearly always hiding destructive implications -- for instance, that black people are more physically-oriented, and thus less intellectually-oriented. A black person trying to live up to this stereotype isn't giving themselves independence, but rather is becoming more dependent (on audiences, on agents, on team owners, etc.) if they plan to make a living.

While both seem like compliments, they are both harmful to the people holding these opinions and to the people that might try to live up to them. But I'm sure we're all wise enough to clearly see that one is far, far more destructive and degrading than the other.

 

[General Twinkletoes]

It's only a problem because every single woman is like that. There are no realistic female characters at all. The only reason they're there is for eyecandy, which is where it starts to become a problem.

Um. No.

The prostitute part is vital to the story and gritty atmosphere of it all. That's the point: They are the underworld protagonist types. Not necessarily sexist, but a viewpoint showing that even the most low of people can do good things.

So the only reason women are there is to be raped to develop the male characters and the atmosphere?
Sure, that's not misogynistic at all.

 

[Arsen]

It's only a problem because every single woman is like that. There are no realistic female characters at all. The only reason they're there is for eyecandy, which is where it starts to become a problem.

Um. No.

The prostitute part is vital to the story and gritty atmosphere of it all. That's the point: They are the underworld protagonist types. Not necessarily sexist, but a viewpoint showing that even the most low of people can do good things.

So the only reason women are there is to be raped to develop the male characters and the atmosphere?
Sure, that's not misogynistic at all.

Where do you get that? That was pulled out of the air and has no basis.

They chose to become prostitutes, show a degree of badassness, defeat a main villain, show a sense of unity...

No. It's not misogynistic. It's a good counter to the moral run and gun male types who kill the REAL evil people in the city.

Edit - You're missing the moral message and only caring about how they are seen from an outside, societal portrayal, which never really matters, as a whole.

 

[Carpenter]

It not that women are portrayed sexily, it's that that's ALL they're good for in Miller comics. He's a misogynist. When he isn't having woman cause problems or being completely reliant on the men around them, he's portraying them as nothing but sexual objects. I think that's why people don't like how he portrays women. I'm all for having fictional women be sexy, but they should still be, ya know, PEOPLE. With convictions and motivations and personality beyond "I want the male hero inside me."

The problem with all of this is that he's not keeping women locked up in some room, he's expressing his ideas through stories. You don't need to read his stuff, I certainly don't.

I just don't understand why this is an issue. Yes he doesn't portray them as "real people" but the same argument could be made for any type of person portrayed in certain comics, movies, or games.

I just don't understand why this is an issue. Nobody is being forced to read his stuff.

His portrayal of women may be offensive to people, but I remember people defending the spear throwing, leaf skirt wearing, gibberish shouting, face painted black people in RE5. You want to talk about a group not being portrayed as real people?

 

[Imthatguy]

snip

Well said, I see your point and agree with them on the reservations that it may still cause psychological damage.

 

[MeChaNiZ3D]

I'm not familiar with all of Miller's work (ducks beneath desk), but I am of the opinion that while oversexualised characters are fine, not all female characters need to be like that, and if it is their only defining trait, that's just poor characterisation.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I'm not familiar with all of Miller's work (ducks beneath desk)

No need to duck haha. You're not missing much unless you like terrible writing and crappy art.

 

[Carpenter]

Yeah I struggle over using it because I was afraid ignorant fools would assume I was spouting off my views through my characters instead of taking it as I intended, to give a very dark unlikeable characteristic to the main-character because I wanted him to be unsympathetic. But no, clearly I must be homophobic for it and I'm sure Frank beats and rapes women.

Heres the thing dude, thats Frank Miller. The hell do you expect when you pick up his books? It's like going to a Pixar film and complaining that it's a CGI film.

Mmmm your one of these kind of people. I love your type, so sheltered and inside their own vast complex mind they spend most the day browsing through the internet with just a little bit of hope they can find something to get all huffy about. Just that one thing were finally they get to have an opinion and someones got to acknowledged it now because it was directed at someone.

It's kinda cute in a stupid way, like a dog eating it's own feces outside since it's been locked out from annoying everyone else in the house due to trying to do the same thing in here.

Heh, funny thing is was I kinda agreed with you in my previous post about some things and thought I explained it in a none talking down way that you would understand, but I guess I was wrong. I just get the feeling your one of those people that don't want to grow up just yet and want to kick and flail around some more, maybe got a job that's going no where... I wouldn't be surprised. You seem like the type. Looking forward to hearing from you.

Well that sure is a way to make judgmental and ridiculous assumptions about a person based on the fact that they have a different opinion.

I tend to agree. It's just what he does. I don't think it's good writing, but that's why I choose not to read it.

Your post was filled with so much hatred and vile, I'm surprised you're not a Miller fan.

 

[Carpenter]

I'm not familiar with all of Miller's work (ducks beneath desk)

No need to duck haha. You're not missing much unless you like terrible writing and crappy art.

The Dark Knight returns was actually pretty good. I hear Sin City was too but I never read it.

He has written a lot of great comics, although now it seems he is at the absolute low point in his career.

 

[II2]

..what..the..hell..am..I..listening..to..and..how/why..did..you..find..this?

what is that?..some kind of performance poetry? I could only get to 2:50....to me mabye it isnt geniunly promoting violence against women...but made to make us feel disturbed/shock (I usually have a high tolerance for things but this really did make me feel uncomfortable)

this is the most amazing thing I have ever heard. What dark corner did you drag this out of?

I listen to a lot of experimental music and it takes me to strange places. EDIT: Specifically, for 8 Bit Jack, this is a Jim Goad guest appearance on the NON "Hatesville" album.

No doubt the piece is meant to provoke, but I don't know to what end. Jim Goad, heard yelling his lyrics there, has a recurring history of real life domestic violence and abuse that lead to a 2 and a half year prison stint and restraining order.

The main point I was driving at is is simply that there are more tangible, direct and REAL instances of misogyny, sexism, racism, violence and other social ills that the time and energy spent exploring the 'problematic' subtext of pop culture work would be better spent addressing and exposing real life problems.

To bring it back to Miller, I'm going to quote pull this Grant Morrison quote regarding Miller's "Holy Terror" (Batman versus Al-Quaeda, basically) :

Batman vs. Al Qaeda! It might as well be Bin Laden vs. King Kong! Or how about the sinister Al Qaeda mastermind up against a hungry Hannibal Lecter! For all the good it's likely to do. Cheering on a fictional character as he beats up fictionalized terrorists seems like a decadent indulgence when real terrorists are killing real people in the real world. I'd be so much more impressed if Frank Miller gave up all this graphic novel nonsense, joined the Army and, with a howl of undying hate, rushed headlong onto the front lines with the young soldiers who are actually risking life and limb 'vs.' Al Qaeda.[12]

I think there's a parallel there between people who spend their time picking apart fantasies instead of dealing with the reality's they're mirroring and amping up. That said, this is an observation, not an ultimatum.

----

All that out of the way, I'm getting sick of this general climate of sexism and rape discussions that seems like an infestation recently and while I've thrown my $0.02 in, I'm tapped out for insight and don't feel like debating.

 

[General Twinkletoes]

It's only a problem because every single woman is like that. There are no realistic female characters at all. The only reason they're there is for eyecandy, which is where it starts to become a problem.

Um. No.

The prostitute part is vital to the story and gritty atmosphere of it all. That's the point: They are the underworld protagonist types. Not necessarily sexist, but a viewpoint showing that even the most low of people can do good things.

So the only reason women are there is to be raped to develop the male characters and the atmosphere?
Sure, that's not misogynistic at all.

Where do you get that? That was pulled out of the air and has no basis.

They chose to become prostitutes, show a degree of badassness, defeat a main villain, show a sense of unity...

How many people IRL actually chose to be a prostitute and feel like a badass? I think you're confusing female empowerment with females who defeat villains. Those aren't mutual. Empowered characters are ones that people often aspire too. Some incarnations of black widow are strong female characters.

Some guys think that the characters in suckerpunch were strong female characters. In reality they were just people raped in a brothel, who could only feel good in dreams. Who the hell wants that?

Wonderwoman is for the most part a good character. Mrs. Marvel, who gets raped in a parallel world, then gives birth to her rapist in the real world, he matures very quickly because of magical BS, and then they fall in love. Pretty much incestuous relations ships, rape and no one helping you.

Would you call her a good female character? She has amazing powers and kicks ass, but I don't consider her a good character. I wouldn't want to be in her shoes.

No. It's not misogynistic. It's a good counter to the moral run and gun male types who kill the REAL evil people in the city.

Edit - You're missing the moral message and only caring about how they are seen from an outside, societal portrayal, which never really matters, as a whole.

I'm pretty sure sexist issues come from societal things, so I'd say it does matter quite a bit.
So, women get to do there own thing that doesn't matter so they can feel better, and then guys actually handle things that are important? Right, ok.

 

[Kahunaburger]

The main point I was driving at is is simply that there are more tangible, direct and REAL instances of misogyny, sexism, racism, violence and other social ills that the time and energy spent exploring the 'problematic' subtext of pop culture work would be better spent addressing and exposing real life problems.

Because attacking problem A and attacking problem B are totally mutually exclusive amirite?