In defence of Whining

[Shadowstar38]

Criticizing something with a valid point is entirely fine. Get enough people to raise a stink about it until shit gets done is acceptable as well. I'm all for it. You just have to have a reason why you hate something if you say you hate it.

My main problem is that a lot of people, like the OP, confuse valid complaints with whining. And some dumbass is going to come along and tell fans they're just being butthurt about it.

Long story short, change that one key word in your title and OP and I'd agree with you.

 

[Substitute Troll]

"You are wrong.

And here's why: ..."

That's critisism. What is whining then?

"YOU ARE WRONG OMG YOU SUCK SO MUCH YOU HAVE RUINED MY LIFE"

Whining is critisism without substance. Whining the lowest form of critisism and should not be valued or catered to.

 

[Yopaz]

I don't know. It seems like everyone here lives in an idealized world where talking calm and rational gets results. From what I've seen it doesn't really work like that. If you go to a store with some sort of comlaint and try to explain it calmly, they'll probably just put you on hold. You start whining and making noise, they give you their complete attention just so they can get you out of their faces faster. The MLP clip just kinda reinforces this. The creatures didn't really comply to what she wanted till after she started whining.

Oh whining might get results, but one can ask if the results are good or if they comply with the wishes of the person who whines. Takes Mass Effect 3 and the outcry of the ending. Because there were a lot of complaints and whining they made a DLC to improve on the ending, but because it was lost in the whining the real issue over the ending was lost.

The ending wasn't hated just because it was poorly written, it was hated because it left loose ends and it made all the choices made up to that point pointless. The whining may have caused the ending to change, but the whining also made it impossible to understand what was wrong with it. While whining might cause a change more often than reasonable criticism reasonable criticism gives the result you want when it actually works.

 

[Something Amyss]

Whining is just a word people use for criticism when they don't approve of the criticism.

Basically, yes. Any criticism, valid or not you don't like will be dismissed as whining.

 

[Something Amyss]

I don't know. It seems like everyone here lives in an idealized world where talking calm and rational gets results. From what I've seen it doesn't really work like that. If you go to a store with some sort of comlaint and try to explain it calmly, they'll probably just put you on hold. You start whining and making noise, they give you their complete attention just so they can get you out of their faces faster. The MLP clip just kinda reinforces this. The creatures didn't really comply to what she wanted till after she started whining.

Actually, in life, I find one place being reasonable really helps is when you are complaining to a store. It's okay to be upset, but actually bitching out customer service is one way to make them uncooperative.

In the rest of the "real world" tantrums may actually be justified, but I think it's six to one, half dozen to the other.

 

[Something Amyss]

Oh whining might get results, but one can ask if the results are good or if they comply with the wishes of the person who whines. Takes Mass Effect 3 and the outcry of the ending. Because there were a lot of complaints and whining they made a DLC to improve on the ending, but because it was lost in the whining the real issue over the ending was lost.

To be fair, this is Mass Effect. This is Bioware, who doesn't seem to understand criticism at all.

Mass Effect 1: The lander sequences are clunky and poorly thought out!

Response: We'll remove them entirely and come up with a new mini-game.

Mass Effect 2: The probing sequences are slow, awkward, and boring.

Response: We'll remove them entirely and come up with a new mini-game. In the meanwhile, we'll patch it to speed up the flawed system that we're totally nixing for the next game, proving that while we can improve something, we choose not to.

Mass Effect 3: The ending disregards player agency and makes no sense!

Is there really any surprise that they drew the wrong conclusion? I think the only surprising part is that they didn't remove the ending entirely. It's their MO.

And yes, there was constructive feedback on all three. A lot of people thought the Mako sequences would be fine if the vehicle handled better and the level designs were also better, but they stripped it out. Same with the probe bits, though I've seen less constructive feedback on that. Possibly because it makes the Mako look like fun.

Response: make adverts talking about the hype around the ending as though it's a good thing, tout perfect review scores. After ignoring the customers for a good chunk of time, release an extended cut that pays no attention to the actual criticism involved.

I think Bioware is a really bad example.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Response: make adverts talking about the hype around the ending as though it's a good thing, tout perfect review scores. After ignoring the customers for a good chunk of time, release an extended cut that pays no attention to the actual criticism involved.

Your criticisms, maybe. Don't even begin to assume you speak for everyone who had problems with and criticized the ending.

OT: Real, actual whining is stupid and makes you look like an idiot. So screw that, I would rather give good, thought-out criticism any day.

 

[Yopaz]

Oh whining might get results, but one can ask if the results are good or if they comply with the wishes of the person who whines. Takes Mass Effect 3 and the outcry of the ending. Because there were a lot of complaints and whining they made a DLC to improve on the ending, but because it was lost in the whining the real issue over the ending was lost.

To be fair, this is Mass Effect. This is Bioware, who doesn't seem to understand criticism at all.

Mass Effect 1: The lander sequences are clunky and poorly thought out!

Response: We'll remove them entirely and come up with a new mini-game.

Mass Effect 2: The probing sequences are slow, awkward, and boring.

Response: We'll remove them entirely and come up with a new mini-game. In the meanwhile, we'll patch it to speed up the flawed system that we're totally nixing for the next game, proving that while we can improve something, we choose not to.

Mass Effect 3: The ending disregards player agency and makes no sense!

Is there really any surprise that they drew the wrong conclusion? I think the only surprising part is that they didn't remove the ending entirely. It's their MO.

And yes, there was constructive feedback on all three. A lot of people thought the Mako sequences would be fine if the vehicle handled better and the level designs were also better, but they stripped it out. Same with the probe bits, though I've seen less constructive feedback on that. Possibly because it makes the Mako look like fun.

Response: make adverts talking about the hype around the ending as though it's a good thing, tout perfect review scores. After ignoring the customers for a good chunk of time, release an extended cut that pays no attention to the actual criticism involved.

I think Bioware is a really bad example.

You know, all of that just strengthen what I just said.

Be honest, glossing over all the criticism was the majority whining or was the majority giving constructive criticism? If you claim the latter, then you are lying and this is exactly the problem with whining. When the majority says "this sucks" then the minority saying "this could be improved by..." are ignored because of the overwhelming amount who seems to hate it altogether.

 

[Something Amyss]

Your criticisms, maybe. Don't even begin to assume you speak for everyone who had problems with and criticized the ending.

The major criticisms that caused the fuss, dear.

 

[Something Amyss]

You know, all of that just strengthen what I just said.

Interesting how a single company's bad track record strengthens your point.

Be honest, glossing over all the criticism was the majority whining or was the majority giving constructive criticism? If you claim the latter, then you are lying and this is exactly the problem with whining. When the majority says "this sucks" then the minority saying "this could be improved by..." are ignored because of the overwhelming amount who seems to hate it altogether.

Please don't accuse me of lying simply for not agreeing with you. I was already being honest. They ignored the majority of complaints.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

Now, I want to be clear about this 'offense' thing: people do not choose to take offense to things, they simply do. The reason why something is offensive is that it is wrong (or at least it is perceived as wrong by the offended subject). In accordance to basic morality, in whatever your moral or ethical codes are (or even etiquette sometimes) things should not be wrong. Things that are wrong are to be changed. This is why the "You do not have the right to be offended" bandwagon is bullshit. Step one to any social change is for enough people to take offense to something.

If this is true, then those who are condemning the whining also do not have a choice, and their tactic of creating arguments to oppose what they do not like (the whining) is legitimate as a means to change that behavior or vocalize their opposition towards it.

In fact all you are doing is whining about the anti-whiners, who are also in a sense whiners.

 

[Sexual Harassment Panda]

I believe that for a myriad of reasons, people frequently choose to be offended by things that are of little threat or importance. Open a newspaper, you can't avoid it. There is a hell of a lot of people going through life with a victim mentality that is completely unwarranted.

 

[DioWallachia]

Apple

Didnt Jim Sterling did a video about the benefits of whining? and being childish in response to when the oponents are childish and incapable of taking criticism?

Oh whining might get results, but one can ask if the results are good or if they comply with the wishes of the person who whines. Takes Mass Effect 3 and the outcry of the ending. Because there were a lot of complaints and whining they made a DLC to improve on the ending, but because it was lost in the whining the real issue over the ending was lost.

That is not the real reason of why the whining on ME3 ending failed. It was clear that they were lying about the "planned" trilogy with ME2 having no plot that expands on the overarching plot of stopping the Reapers by learning more about their weaknesses. And lets not forget that they changed the "Dark Energy" ending for something that "makes sense and its more "arty" even if it has nothing to do with the themes of the series".

Again...."planned" trilogy

Just like how George Lucas keeps refusing to give answers about the prequels, and how Michael Bay said that Transformers 2: Revenge of the Fallen sucked and its going to fix it by.......not changing the writer, they all share with Casey Hudson one thing in common:

PRIDE

Skip to 19:41

Spoiler

Or, judging by the description of Archengeia, i would say that its more like sociophatic behavior (the kind of where the person is INCAPABLE of seeing errors or flaws in its actions even when caugh on the spot)

It doesnt matter what kind of whining or criticism you have, in the eyes of that kind of personm ANYTHING is whining.

 

[BreakfastMan]

Your criticisms, maybe. Don't even begin to assume you speak for everyone who had problems with and criticized the ending.

The major criticisms that caused the fuss, dear.

Nope, they weren't. The only consistent criticism that I saw across all of those who wanted the ending changed was that it sucked.

 

[Fappy]

I wonder how many people are going to whine about whining in this thread.

Dats so meta O.O

Whining is just a word people use for criticism when they don't approve of the criticism.

Alas, that is the way of the internet.

 

[Devil_Worshipper]

The difference between whining and criticism is the difference between regular porn and diaper porn, one is more embarrassing to be found doing than the other.

 

[Arslan Aladeen]

Didn't Jim do a video on this?

Yes, Jim did a video which was - ironically - a well-constructed lecture on the topic, making an argument that it gets certain jobs done. Putting aside what it HAS done when used, it is because it is that way of doing things that is still wrong even if it makes some kind of progress. We're not suppose to be bitching. We're suppose to be trying to be intelligent. Regardless of the effect, let me just ask you a question, point-blank:

Which would you rather hear from your various users online, a discussion that can be give-and-take and kept somewhat under control? Or...

[HEADING=1]"EEEEEEEEEEYYYYYYAAAAAAAUUUUUGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!!"[/HEADING]

...which is the collective shriek of an internet forum full of banshees acting like two-year-olds?

If you REALLY think the second option is preferable, I'd rather not know.

I had to edit this in.

That, my friend, is a fetid load. It has nothing to do with how the issue is constructed. It's the quality of your store. Since MY gaming retail store experience has been good, I must submit a fault in that line of reasoning.

Also, welcome to the Escapist.

I guess it more of a case by case scenario. I still have trouble believing any corporation who who are usually resistant to changing their ways would care about a carefully word, yet stern argument, over some loudmouth who can draw unwanted attention to them. I'm guessing the retail store you go to is employed by people still going to school and are not planning on staying at that store for the rest of their lives, so they probably don't care as much about protecting the corporate interests. In any event, I'm going to take your greetings as genuine despite our difference in views and say thank you.

 

[Yopaz]

Interesting how a single company's bad track record strengthens your point.

Interesting how you see simply what you want to see and ignore anything else. I'm done here, you have already proven my point.

 

[FalloutJack]

Heh

It was well-meant.

Anyway, let's not make assumptions about the stores I go to. I use a bunch of 'em. I'm a nice guy, and I get good treatment. Hell, I even get reasonable tech support.

 

[StriderShinryu]

I think one of the biggest differences really is not just a desire for change, but thought about what that change would mean and how it could be accomplished. This really is pretty clearly demonstrated by the whole ME3 ending issue. There were absolutely some very cogent arguments for not only why the ending could/should have been different but they also offered possible options for what their proposed changes would look like. There were also plenty of whining comments about how terrible EABioware is, how muhc the ending sucked, and how many staff members should die in a fire. Both wanted things to be different, and both maybe even would have been happy eith the exact same changes, but some people whined and some did not.

I also feel an important distinction is criticism usually takes at least a slight interest in what the intent of the creators was, for better or worse. Whining just basically takes the vantage point of the whiner being right and everyone else who doesn't agree with them being wrong.