In defense of Dark Souls 2

[Dirty Hipsters]

Reading through Dark Souls 2 threads, I've noticed a theme running through most posts, that Dark Souls 2 is significantly worse than Dark Souls 1. Some people just say that they prefer Dark Souls 1, and some say that Dark Souls 2 was made by a lazy B team who didn't know what the fuck they were doing, but I've yet to see very many people say that Dark Souls 1 and 2 are equal in their eyes, or that Dark Souls 2 might even be better. So I've decided to make this thread to talk about some of the design decisions that people have found most objectionable in Dark Souls 2, and explain why I don't find them to be glaring inadequacies like most people do.

1. The world design:

A lot of people have a problem with Dark Souls 2 because it didn't have the same interconnected world design that Dark Souls 1 did. Dark Souls 1 was amazing about how it positioned all of its zones and areas. Almost any interesting landmark you could see in the distance would be visited at some point, and most of the areas were heavily interconnected. For example you could see Lost Izalith and Ash Lake from Tomb of the Giants, you could see The Duke's Archives from Anor Londo, and all these areas were interconnected amongst each other. It was really impressive how the dev team managed to cram so much content into a relatively small space, but that was also a problem of mine with the game.

After the first run through of the game you notice how close everything is to each other. In fact, I'd guess that the entire game takes place in an area that's smaller than 2 square miles. Once I noticed that it really made the journey through Lordran seem much less epic, and it made Lordran itself seem a lot more nonsensical. I mean, there's 3 major cities (Undead Burg, Anor Londo, and New Londo) all within a 5 minute walk from each other, this doesn't exactly make the world seem expansive.

Dark Souls 2 had a completely different design philosophy in that most of its areas were not interconnected, and this created a much larger and more sprawling layout of levels and areas. Most people have criticized this as "lazy" and have said that the reason for this is because From Software's "B team" couldn't be bothered to figure out a way to make the areas as interconnected as they were in Dark Souls 1. I on the other hand think differently. The fact that the areas are so spread out makes the world feel larger, it feels like your journey is taking you through the entire Kingdom of Drangliec rather than just a small corner of it, and I think that makes the game feel more "epic" in scope, especially on a second and third play-through.

I wouldn't say that one world design is better or worse than the other, just that they're very different styles. I liked what Dark Souls 1 did with the level design, and I found it very impressive from a technical point of view in how much planning must have gone into fitting the world together like a puzzle, but from a gameplay point of view I preferred traveling the world of Dark Souls 2, because my journey seemed larger, like a real epic fantasy quest.

2. The bosses:

Another criticism I've heard about Dark Souls 2 is that the bosses are boring in comparison to Dark Souls 1 and that 2 many bosses are just "guy with shield and X weapon."

Now I don't disagree that Dark Souls 2 has a lot of bosses that are very similar, but I don't think that's necessarily as big a tragedy as people are making it out to be. There are over 30 bosses in Dark Souls 2, whereas there are 20 in Dark Souls 1. Of the 20 in Dark Souls 1, 3 of them were basically the same repeating boss (the Asylum Demon, Demon Firesage, and Stray Demon) and 5 of the bosses were just minor enemies from later levels (Taurus Demon, Capra Demon, Moonlight Butterfly, Bell Gargoyles, and Pinwheel). So of the 20 bosses in Dark Souls 1 only 12 are unique. Even if you take out all instances of fighting "human with shield or big weapon weapon" in Dark Souls 2 you still have 23 bosses that are unique.

Now sure, not all the bosses are winners, Prowling Magus and Skeleton Lords are a total joke and shouldn't count as boss fights at all, but there are still lots of fun and interesting fights in Dark Souls 2. Pursuer, Chariot, Looking Glass Knight, Lost Sinner, Belfry Gargoyles, Ruined Sentinels, Mytha, Demon of Song, Dark Lurker, Throne Watcher and Defender, are all interesting bosses that have interesting mechanics behind them. How many really interesting bosses were there in Dark Souls 1? Belfrey Gargoyles, Quelaag, Priscilla, Gaping Dragon, Sif, Ornstein and Smough, Nito. That's about it. Dark Souls 2 might have a bunch of bosses that aren't that interesting, but so did Dark Souls 1, but for Dark Souls 1 we forget the bad bosses and focus on the really cool bossfights, like Pikachu and Snorlax, and I think that Dark Souls 2 has just as many interesting boss fights as Dark Souls 1 did, if not more.

3. The Lore:

I'll be making a different thread about the Dark Souls 2 lore a little later because I still have to get a lot of thoughts unscrambled and down on paper, so for now all I have to say is that it's not a bad thing that Dark Souls 2 built upon the lore of the first game. A lot of people are treating the game like it took the easy way out by including so many references to Dark Souls 1, and by including the chosen undead from the first game as well as the lord souls in the plot of the second. To this I say "it's a sequel". Sequels are meant to build upon the plot and lore of previous games, that's the entire point of having a sequel at all. There's also a lot of really interesting lore in Dark Souls 2, both in the way that it connects to the first game, and original lore that's interesting in its own right. Maybe people will be singing a different tune about the lore once vaatividya and epicnamebro do their lore videos for the game, just like what happened with Dark Souls 1.

In Conclusion:

I'm not telling people that they're wrong to dislike the game. From Software changed enough from Dark Souls 1 to Dark Souls 2 that of course there will be segments of people who are unhappy with the changes, and I'm not here to tell those people that they're wrong. What I do want to do is tell people that I think saying that Dark Souls 2 is a lazy sequel is incorrect. I think the design philosophy for the second game is very different from the first, but that doesn't necessarily make it worse, just different. I fully believe that a lot of thought was put into the game, and I don't believe that they game was lazily put together and rushed. There's tons of little details and hidden things in the game that show me that it was made with love and meticulous thought, just like Dark Souls 1, and I don't think that people are right to treat Dark Souls 2 like the "redheaded stepchild" of the Souls series.

 

[Rylot]

Kind of a side note on your point about DS 1 being in a small area: I think it's a bit bigger than just a few square miles. Anor Londo isn't directly connected to the Burg and neither is The Undead Asylum. Both require other beings to transport you there.

While DS II did take a branching pathways with a central hub that a lot of games didn't like I think they still did a good job of having short cuts that players can discover that loop back to bonfires.

Spoiler: Forest of the Giants bonfire short cut

When I realized you could blow up the barrels in the corner by the platform where you can fight the Pursuer Knight early my mind was blown, I'd gone by that spot dozens of times

I also liked some of the call backs to the first game and a lot of the little secrets that are easy to miss. I also like that NG+ changes things up a lot.

 

[pspman45]

I really liked Dark Souls 2, I thought it did enough to make the combat feel new and interesting, there was a major graphical shift, there were a couple of neat bosses strewn in with the "guy with a sword" ones, and the world was fun to explore. The problem is that I while it does all those things, I still like the first one more. That does not mean it's a bad game, they're both great games.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

I'll be making a different thread about the Dark Souls 2 lore a little later because I still have to get a lot of thoughts unscrambled and down on paper, so for now all I have to say is that it's not a bad thing that Dark Souls 2 built upon the lore of the first game. A lot of people are treating the game like it took the easy way out by including so many references to Dark Souls 1, and by including the chosen undead from the first game as well as the lord souls in the plot of the second.

And its not like Dark Souls 1 wasn't heavily influenced by Demon's Souls either. Frankly, there's quite a bit of repeated ideas in the Souls series. I think it works in the Souls universe since it is all an endless cycle.

But to address your defense, and most of it, I'm not going to disagree, you missed the elephant in the room.
Soul Memory.

That in itself is the main problem with the game. It penalizes some playstyles (archers and hexers) and makes for bad handicapping (Lost too many souls? Enjoy skilled high level opponents). It also makes some PvP avatars become "out of range" for many opponents from too many fights, since PvP gives Souls, meaning that character should just retire.

Off topic: I got invaded today and managed to use Estus to preserve my life. The invader proceeded to call me a "healing pussy" over PSN, even though they tried to hide behind enemies (who will only attack me). Healing while invaded is well within the game's rules - there is no honour there - just someone trying to murder me. Apparently, I'm supposed to handicap myself so that they can fuck me up. Cause that makes sense. I won the fight BTW.

Oh there's no way in hell I'm going to try defending Soul Memory. I'm going to chalk that one up to the fact that they're still refining multiplayer and patching things, so there's a chance that they'll make it work better, or just remove it once they're totally convinced it's not salvageable. At least I hope.

 

[michael87cn]

DS2 was made by a lazy B team who didn't know what the fuck they were doing.

What's that, you want that item? LOL farm till your game is so fucked up that its on like NG+48! That's not unreasonable at all. NEW GAME PLUS FORTY EIGHT.

If you wanted to have all the gear in the game? I wonder if NG+ caps at 99... at any rate, that's a lot of stupid farming, stupid mobs that stop spawning because the 'gaem too hard!!!1111 make mob not spawn so i can run 2 boss geez!!11214omg"

Crap game is crap... no, actually, iTS SUB-CRAP.

Such a big disappointment. It's not often that I stand in crapstop lines to buy a day-1 release.. in fact IVE NEVER DONE IT before DS2. And what do I get? a spherical representation of electronic dog shit.

 

[Lovely Mixture]

Reaks of apologism to me.

1. The world design:

The world in Dark Souls II makes no sense. It made sense in the first game as nonsensical as it may have looked. In Dark Souls II you have elevation where there should be none, you climb up to the Iron Keep....a castle that is explicitly stated to have sunk into the ground.

2. The bosses:

3 of them were basically the same repeating boss (the Asylum Demon, Demon Firesage, and Stray Demon)

Yes fine.

and 5 of the bosses were just minor enemies from later levels (Taurus Demon, Capra Demon, Moonlight Butterfly, Bell Gargoyles, and Pinwheel).

You're kind ignoring the fact that the situations presented them as bosses and made them challenging.

Taurus is fought on a narrow bridge.
Capra and Pinwheel are fought in close quarters.
Bell Gargoyles are fought ontop of the church and have MUCH more room to move around.
Moonlight Butterflies later on DON'T NEED to be fought

So of the 20 bosses in Dark Souls 1 only 12 are unique. Even if you take out all instances of fighting "human with shield or big weapon weapon" in Dark Souls 2 you still have 23 bosses that are unique.

Pursuer, Chariot, Looking Glass Knight, Lost Sinner, Belfry Gargoyles, Ruined Sentinels, Mytha, Demon of Song, Dark Lurker, Throne Watcher and Defender, are all interesting bosses that have interesting mechanics behind them. How many really interesting bosses were there in Dark Souls 1?

Pursuer and Ruin Sentinels are not unique according to your criteria. They're re-used several time.
Bell Gargoyles are not unique in that they've been literally ripped from Dark Souls 1.

Interesting Mechanics? Look at how many of those bosses use the same attack combos (right swing, left swing, overhead swing) and tracking:
Ruined Sentinels, Mytha, Throne Watcher and Defender, Pursuer, Looking Glass Knight, Lost Sinner.

That leaves Chariot, Demon of Song, Dark Lurker.

A lot of people are treating the game like it took the easy way out by including so many references to Dark Souls 1, and by including the chosen undead from the first game as well as the lord souls in the plot of the second. To this I say "it's a sequel". Sequels are meant to build upon the plot and lore of previous games, that's the entire point of having a sequel at all

Dark Souls II barely builds anything at all. It sets up it's "new" continent with references to the first game. It tries to justify this by saying that the events of the game is part of a cycle. It's a cheap way of trying to throw the same story at you without trying to do anything new.

Maybe people will be singing a different tune about the lore once vaatividya and epicnamebro do their lore videos for the game, just like what happened with Dark Souls 1.

which they've done and the lore is still as boring as before. You even have ENB pointing out "lore" such as "the old woman at the beginning is Herald" ...So fucking what?

For Dark Souls 1 I didn't even NEED some video explaining the story for me to get interested, I took it in and discussed it with people. For Dark Souls II there's practically nothing to discuss because the whole thing feels like a shoddy cash-in.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

DS2 was made by a lazy B team who didn't know what the fuck they were doing.

What's that, you want that item? LOL farm till your game is so fucked up that its on like NG+48! That's not unreasonable at all. NEW GAME PLUS FORTY EIGHT.

If you wanted to have all the gear in the game? I wonder if NG+ caps at 99... at any rate, that's a lot of stupid farming, stupid mobs that stop spawning because the 'gaem too hard!!!1111 make mob not spawn so i can run 2 boss geez!!11214omg"

Crap game is crap... no, actually, iTS SUB-CRAP.

Such a big disappointment. It's not often that I stand in crapstop lines to buy a day-1 release.. in fact IVE NEVER DONE IT before DS2. And what do I get? a spherical representation of electronic dog shit.

Geez, what were you farming for that got you so riled up?

I've only had 4 enemies disappear on me in my first playthrough. They were Alonne knights that I liked testing new weapons against. I never found a reason to farm for anything until the enemies disappeared, and I definitely wouldn't do it multiple times.

 

[AntiChri5]

I'll be making a different thread about the Dark Souls 2 lore a little later because I still have to get a lot of thoughts unscrambled and down on paper, so for now all I have to say is that it's not a bad thing that Dark Souls 2 built upon the lore of the first game. A lot of people are treating the game like it took the easy way out by including so many references to Dark Souls 1, and by including the chosen undead from the first game as well as the lord souls in the plot of the second.

And its not like Dark Souls 1 wasn't heavily influenced by Demon's Souls either. Frankly, there's quite a bit of repeated ideas in the Souls series. I think it works in the Souls universe since it is all an endless cycle.

But to address your defense, and for most of it I'm not going to disagree, you missed the elephant in the room.
Soul Memory.

That in itself is the main problem with the game. It penalizes some playstyles (archers and hexers) and makes for bad handicapping (Lost too many souls? Enjoy skilled high level opponents). It also makes some PvP avatars become "out of range" for many opponents from too many fights, since PvP gives Souls, meaning that character should just retire.

Off topic: I got invaded today and managed to use Estus to preserve my life. The invader proceeded to call me a "healing pussy" over PSN, even though they tried to hide behind enemies (who will only attack me). Healing while invaded is well within the game's rules - there is no honour there - just someone trying to murder me. Apparently, I'm supposed to handicap myself so that they can fuck me up. Cause that makes sense. I won the fight BTW.

They like to hide their bullshit behind "honour" but they really just don't want you to have an advantage because they are dicks. Estus-free honour duels happen in the arena, not invasions. Three times now i have been invaded by people who got outraged enough by the fact that i have estus that they oh so mysteriously regained all their health and became immune to damage. Any excuse will do for cheaters.

 

[Greg White]

But to address your defense, and for most of it I'm not going to disagree, you missed the elephant in the room.
Soul Memory.

That in itself is the main problem with the game. It penalizes some playstyles (archers and hexers) and makes for bad handicapping (Lost too many souls? Enjoy skilled high level opponents). It also makes some PvP avatars become "out of range" for many opponents from too many fights, since PvP gives Souls, meaning that character should just retire.

Soul Memory does have its uses. You can't take a base or otherwise really low leveled character, give them all +10 gear, and go seal clubbing in new areas anymore, not unless you cheat anyway.

Also, souls from consuming soul items doesn't effect your soul memory.

Off topic: I got invaded today and managed to use Estus to preserve my life. The invader proceeded to call me a "healing pussy" over PSN, even though they tried to hide behind enemies (who will only attack me). Healing while invaded is well within the game's rules - there is no honour there - just someone trying to murder me. Apparently, I'm supposed to handicap myself so that they can fuck me up. Cause that makes sense. I won the fight BTW.

Seed of a Tree of Giants will fix someone hiding behind enemies real quick.

Bell Gargoyles are not unique in that they've been literally ripped from Dark Souls 1.

Interesting Mechanics? Look at how many of those bosses use the same attack combos (right swing, left swing, overhead swing) and tracking:
Ruined Sentinels, Mytha, Throne Watcher and Defender, Pursuer, Looking Glass Knight, Lost Sinner.

Bell Gargoyles: completely different fight aside from aesthetics and name

Mytha: Poison all over her arena(unless you burn down the windmill) that heals her, plus a pretty unique moveset.

Throne Watcher and Defender: ability to resurrect each other if you don't kill one quickly enough after the first goes down.

Pursuer: Ability to make you a target for homing attacks if his thrust attack connects.

Looking Glass Knight: ability to summon other players to fight for him during the boss fight

Lost Sinner: light mechanics and the red phantoms that join in for new game+

I'd also add Nashandra because she can summon orbs that both curse and deal damage.

 

[JagermanXcell]

Oh man one of these.

I've already said all I can say about how Dks2 is inferior to Dks1 (bare bones lore, quantity over quality bosses, balancing issues, soul memo- blah blah, the usual legitimate criticisms). And I will admit, the DLC has shown that the B Team DOES know how a Souls game is supposed to be done. But the overall vision of the vanilla game kinda makes the DLC null in comparison. Damn shame too, cause it's a DLC I would highly recommend to those disappointed with Dks2 as I was. And I'm looking forward to seeing the next 2 DLCs while we wait for Bloodborne.

As for my final attack on Dks2, I cite this *clears throat*: The 1.06 patch/1.08 calibrations.
That update, along with the previous ones more focused towards "balancing" the PVE is evident enough that the team was not happy with the final product. Whatever design philosophy you speak of they were going for, simply did not work in their favor (Ex. see Soul Memory and the note that they're tweaking/possibly soon about to kill it). We saw a patch nerf, it nerfed little. A patch that nerfed much, but made what was broken absolutely useless instead of balancing out the kinks (see Resonant Weapon). And now the recent patch, made things great but in an attempt to fix the HUGE and I mean HUGE issues still evident from the previous patch, undid previous fixes.
Ex. Lighting spear casts got reduced but they said the damage would increase.... nothing, faith builds that focus on the offensive are now either crippled or useless.
Another Ex. They nerfed the monastery scimitar's instant parry frames... the recent patch brought it back and gave all curved sword's similar-ish increase parry frames. WAT.

Yes, Dks1 had huge issues as well, but as time went on newer issues were constantly dealt with in a permanent manner.
Best way I can put it: Dark Souls 2 is a game expecting to fix it's broken bones with duct tape. During said process, it just keeps making more and more cracks.

 

[joest01]

How did I put it in another thread...

Demon's = best atmosphere and best organized pvp
Dark2 = best gameplay and arguably deepest lore
Dark1 = best forgotten

Dark1 was a misstep that some people look fondly upon with some very rosy shades on.

 

[default]

How did I put it in another thread...

Demon's = best atmosphere and best organized pvp
Dark2 = best gameplay and arguably deepest lore
Dark1 = best forgotten

Dark1 was a misstep that some people look fondly upon with some very rosy shades on.

Nope, that was in my thread I made before and now I'll say something about it. Wrong, objectively and subjectively. Yes, your opinion is wrong. Dark Souls has been insanely influential among game design circles, is extremely well designed and innovative and on top of that is creative, popular, compelling, balanced and utterly unique. It's a great game, a REALLY great game, and I love it THAT much that I'm going to go full basement-nerd and ask you to tell us why your opinion is so. Yeah it has some massive flaws, I don't think any sane Souls player would deny that, but half of those flaws are what made the game so utterly compelling and deep.

Dark Souls 2 is a fucking mess in comparison. Still a damn good game considering and on its own merits, but put it next to the other two Souls games and it turns into a slow, sloppy, gluggy mess. There is no tightness, technicality or flow to its combat, the world design and aesthetics have none of the flair or talent of both of the previous games, the characters are entirely forgettable and shallow, there is so much pointless and needlessly expanded bullshit in regards to its systems and design, it has none of the grace and design simplicity of it's previous titles... Nope.

Wow, the world went red for a bit there...

Anyway, in regards to OP:



1 World Design:

Meh, I don't have much to say here. Both are appealing in their own way. Dark Souls 1's environment was like a towering, dirty, glimmering rats nest. You plunge into the deepest dark of the earth and cling to the highest peaks like a little insect. It's a perfect example of what I call 'verticality' in environment design. Everything is dark, yawning pits and tiny footholds traced along the faces of cliffs. It's very hostile in its presentation and even just moving through the world requires constant attention.

Dark Souls 2 is still good, very pretty and well put together, but just not as interesting.




2 Boss Design:

Meh, a lot of the bosses in DS2 are just uninspired and a little boring. Watcher and Defender is especially trying. They don't even have significant differences to feel out and use, just two similar guys with swords and shields that give you no opening, causing you to back around the arena for ten minutes landing hits here and there. O&S were completely different and complimentary, you could use the weight and sluggishness of Smough against him as you dodge and dash away from Ornstein's faster moveset, and vice versa. Again, DS2 isn't bad by any means, just uninspired.

But if there was one really good boss in DS2, it was definitely the Demon of Song. That was very cool, unsettling and interesting. The Chariot was pretty damn cool too.




3 The Lore:

Again, it's just not as inspired, interesting or deep. None of the tragic and loveable characters of the first game, none of the intrique and emergent storylines (except for perhaps Lucatiel and Vengarl), none of the hidden depths to the characters and their intentions... they all just come to Majula and fucking sit there forever, selling you rocks. When it comes to the stories behind the areas, there is some very intriguing stuff there, such as Tseldora, the shaded woods and the museum area. We'll see what comes out.




Reading back through that, a lot of that is very subjective, and once again I say these things at the cost of sounding like a dick. I'm a big fan of this series, and I just want to see it really shine. I was so disappointed when I realised that DS2 just had very little of the creative flair, that special Miyazaki touch of design, aesthetics, depth and passion that we saw in the last two games. I hate using this word, but it's just been really homogenised. And it just comes to being really stupid sometimes. The fucking bra that enhances your breast size? The miniskirt and highheels? The stupid bloody butterfly costume and furry cat legs? Where is the fucking taste or subtlety on the dev team?

Meh, I could talk about this for hours. I'll stop now before I burst a vein.

 

[joest01]

How did I put it in another thread...

Demon's = best atmosphere and best organized pvp
Dark2 = best gameplay and arguably deepest lore
Dark1 = best forgotten

Dark1 was a misstep that some people look fondly upon with some very rosy shades on.

Nope, that was in my thread I made before and now I'll say something about it. Wrong, objectively and subjectively. Yes, your opinion is wrong. Dark Souls has been insanely influential among game design circles, is extremely well designed and innovative and on top of that is creative, popular, compelling, balanced and utterly unique. It's a great game, a REALLY great game, and I love it THAT much that I'm going to go full basement-nerd and ask you to tell us why your opinion is so. Yeah it has some massive flaws, I don't think any sane Souls player would deny that, but half of those flaws are what made the game so utterly compelling and deep.

Dark Souls 2 is a fucking mess in comparison. Still a damn good game considering and on its own merits, but put it next to the other two Souls games and it turns into a slow, sloppy, gluggy mess. There is no tightness, technicality or flow to its combat, the world design and aesthetics have none of the flair or talent of both of the previous games, the characters are entirely forgettable and shallow, there is so much pointless and needlessly expanded bullshit in regards to its systems and design, it has none of the grace and design simplicity of it's previous titles... Nope.

Wow, the world went red for a bit there...

Anyway, in regards to OP:



1 World Design:

Meh, I don't have much to say here. Both are appealing in their own way. Dark Souls 1's environment was like a towering, dirty, glimmering rats nest. You plunge into the deepest dark of the earth and cling to the highest peaks like a little insect. It's a perfect example of what I call 'verticality' in environment design. Everything is dark, yawning pits and tiny footholds traced along the faces of cliffs. It's very hostile in its presentation and even just moving through the world requires constant attention.

Dark Souls 2 is still good, very pretty and well put together, but just not as interesting.




2 Boss Design:

Meh, a lot of the bosses in DS2 are just uninspired and a little boring. Watcher and Defender is especially trying. They don't even have significant differences to feel out and use, just two similar guys with swords and shields that give you no opening, causing you to back around the arena for ten minutes landing hits here and there. O&S were completely different and complimentary, you could use the weight and sluggishness of Smough against him as you dodge and dash away from Ornstein's faster moveset, and vice versa. Again, DS2 isn't bad by any means, just uninspired.

But if there was one really good boss in DS2, it was definitely the Demon of Song. That was very cool, unsettling and interesting. The Chariot was pretty damn cool too.




3 The Lore:

Again, it's just not as inspired, interesting or deep. None of the tragic and loveable characters of the first game, none of the intrique and emergent storylines (except for perhaps Lucatiel and Vengarl), none of the hidden depths to the characters and their intentions... they all just come to Majula and fucking sit there forever, selling you rocks. When it comes to the stories behind the areas, there is some very intriguing stuff there, such as Tseldora, the shaded woods and the museum area. We'll see what comes out.




Reading back through that, a lot of that is very subjective, and once again I say these things at the cost of sounding like a dick. I'm a big fan of this series, and I just want to see it really shine. I was so disappointed when I realised that DS2 just had very little of the creative flair, that special Miyazaki touch of design, aesthetics, depth and passion that we saw in the last two games. I hate using this word, but it's just been really homogenised. And it just comes to being really stupid sometimes. The fucking bra that enhances your breast size? The miniskirt and highheels? The stupid bloody butterfly costume and furry cat legs? Where is the fucking taste or subtlety on the dev team?

Meh, I could talk about this for hours. I'll stop now before I burst a vein.

It is just that Dark Souls was a big disappointment for many serious Demon's Souls players. The atmosphere was completely lost. In fact, every area after the lord vessel was, sorry, shit. The gameplay is so so. The bosses other than O&S are a joke (until the DLC, those bosses are win!).

Dark Souls 2 doesn't do anything about the atmosphere. And it goes overboard with the lore (without giving you a good reason to care). But at least it brings back some of the world tendency mechanics in NG+. But the gameplay is back. There is dual wielding. And rolling works, without a game breaking ninja flip. Bows are viable. Heck, whips and Caestus are. Bare fists are! The bosses are hit and miss but a lot of them are actually interesting and challenging. The throne duo being a prime example btw. They are an improved O&S battle really. The mirror knight spitting actual pvp players at you. The sinner in the dark. The gargoyles in NG+ are a blast!

Return to form basically. In terms of actual gameplay even better than Demon's. Now if they could introduce a way to create my own covenant where I can define what equipment, spells etc are allowed, give me a protected arena and we're on. Then we just need to get the magic back. But honestly, I'll just play through Demon's every couple of years. Or metroid prime for that matter. I don't believe anyone there even understands what made Demon's / King's Field special. At least there were no t-rexes and ice caves in the last game.

 

[Winterfel]

Well how I'm I going to put this that won't make me type out half an essay..
Oh wait, someone has already pointed out my exact feelings on the game:

Spoiler: Yubtubz

The short way to put it is that it just lacks the overall polish the first game had.

 

[AmberSword]

It's all opinion based I guess. I personally liked the interconnected world more.
For one, Anor Londo is in no way close to Undead Burg or New Londo as someone already mentioned (besides, the burg is on top of a hill/ mountain at the very least, and New Londo is deep underground), I forgot how you got there, but it was either through a bird or teleportation from Sen's Fortress. That is a lot of distance. Basically what Dark Souls 2 did was they made every area feel as far apart and disconnected from each other as Anor Londo was, pulling it off once to get a new hub is fine, but I found the way DKSII did it a bit too jarring.

About the bosses, I do agree with your points, I found the bosses almost just as spectacular as Dark Souls 1, but I still haven't found a boss that tops Ornstein and Smough, so there's that.

The lore though is where I am vehemently opposed to your opinion, its not like they build on the first game like the series is supposed to do, they literally just did a "reskin" of the lore, with not enough standing out on its own. I get that Lordran = Drangleic just in a different time period is a genuinely interesting and magnificent idea, I just felt the execution should have been much better than it was.

I haven't played any DLC yet, I've heard that its good, so I will when the price drops.

 

[Imperioratorex Caprae]

Out of all of them, I liked Demon's Souls the most. It reminded me of the days where you needed a strategy guide to do everything, before gamefaqs and walkthroughs (basically pre-internet) along side the concept of Nintendo-hard. Dark Souls was interesting, and fun but sometimes the gameplay felt buggy (even if it wasn't). I don't feel it was a bad game, I still play it when I feel like punishing myself (but seriously FUCK Sen's Fortress). DS2 doesn't resonate with me as much, maybe because I enjoyed the previous two and the latest entry isn't what I wanted out of the series. I'm not saying its bad either, just not what I expected. Hell I don't even know what I expected.

 

[default]

How did I put it in another thread...

Demon's = best atmosphere and best organized pvp
Dark2 = best gameplay and arguably deepest lore
Dark1 = best forgotten

Dark1 was a misstep that some people look fondly upon with some very rosy shades on.

Nope, that was in my thread I made before and now I'll say something about it. Wrong, objectively and subjectively. Yes, your opinion is wrong. Dark Souls has been insanely influential among game design circles, is extremely well designed and innovative and on top of that is creative, popular, compelling, balanced and utterly unique. It's a great game, a REALLY great game, and I love it THAT much that I'm going to go full basement-nerd and ask you to tell us why your opinion is so. Yeah it has some massive flaws, I don't think any sane Souls player would deny that, but half of those flaws are what made the game so utterly compelling and deep.

Dark Souls 2 is a fucking mess in comparison. Still a damn good game considering and on its own merits, but put it next to the other two Souls games and it turns into a slow, sloppy, gluggy mess. There is no tightness, technicality or flow to its combat, the world design and aesthetics have none of the flair or talent of both of the previous games, the characters are entirely forgettable and shallow, there is so much pointless and needlessly expanded bullshit in regards to its systems and design, it has none of the grace and design simplicity of it's previous titles... Nope.

Wow, the world went red for a bit there...

Anyway, in regards to OP:



1 World Design:

Meh, I don't have much to say here. Both are appealing in their own way. Dark Souls 1's environment was like a towering, dirty, glimmering rats nest. You plunge into the deepest dark of the earth and cling to the highest peaks like a little insect. It's a perfect example of what I call 'verticality' in environment design. Everything is dark, yawning pits and tiny footholds traced along the faces of cliffs. It's very hostile in its presentation and even just moving through the world requires constant attention.

Dark Souls 2 is still good, very pretty and well put together, but just not as interesting.




2 Boss Design:

Meh, a lot of the bosses in DS2 are just uninspired and a little boring. Watcher and Defender is especially trying. They don't even have significant differences to feel out and use, just two similar guys with swords and shields that give you no opening, causing you to back around the arena for ten minutes landing hits here and there. O&S were completely different and complimentary, you could use the weight and sluggishness of Smough against him as you dodge and dash away from Ornstein's faster moveset, and vice versa. Again, DS2 isn't bad by any means, just uninspired.

But if there was one really good boss in DS2, it was definitely the Demon of Song. That was very cool, unsettling and interesting. The Chariot was pretty damn cool too.




3 The Lore:

Again, it's just not as inspired, interesting or deep. None of the tragic and loveable characters of the first game, none of the intrique and emergent storylines (except for perhaps Lucatiel and Vengarl), none of the hidden depths to the characters and their intentions... they all just come to Majula and fucking sit there forever, selling you rocks. When it comes to the stories behind the areas, there is some very intriguing stuff there, such as Tseldora, the shaded woods and the museum area. We'll see what comes out.




Reading back through that, a lot of that is very subjective, and once again I say these things at the cost of sounding like a dick. I'm a big fan of this series, and I just want to see it really shine. I was so disappointed when I realised that DS2 just had very little of the creative flair, that special Miyazaki touch of design, aesthetics, depth and passion that we saw in the last two games. I hate using this word, but it's just been really homogenised. And it just comes to being really stupid sometimes. The fucking bra that enhances your breast size? The miniskirt and highheels? The stupid bloody butterfly costume and furry cat legs? Where is the fucking taste or subtlety on the dev team?

Meh, I could talk about this for hours. I'll stop now before I burst a vein.

It is just that Dark Souls was a big disappointment for many serious Demon's Souls players. The atmosphere was completely lost. In fact, every area after the lord vessel was, sorry, shit. The gameplay is so so. The bosses other than O&S are a joke (until the DLC, those bosses are win!).

Dark Souls 2 doesn't do anything about the atmosphere. And it goes overboard with the lore (without giving you a good reason to care). But at least it brings back some of the world tendency mechanics in NG+. But the gameplay is back. There is dual wielding. And rolling works, without a game breaking ninja flip. Bows are viable. Heck, whips and Caestus are. Bare fists are! The bosses are hit and miss but a lot of them are actually interesting and challenging. The throne duo being a prime example btw. They are an improved O&S battle really. The mirror knight spitting actual pvp players at you. The sinner in the dark. The gargoyles in NG+ are a blast!

Return to form basically. In terms of actual gameplay even better than Demon's. Now if they could introduce a way to create my own covenant where I can define what equipment, spells etc are allowed, give me a protected arena and we're on. Then we just need to get the magic back. But honestly, I'll just play through Demon's every couple of years. Or metroid prime for that matter. I don't believe anyone there even understands what made Demon's / King's Field special. At least there were no t-rexes and ice caves in the last game.

You know what? I totally understand where you're coming from. Apologies for being so aggressive. I haven't had the opportunity to play much Demons Souls at all apart from an hour at a friends place, but it's something I intend to remedy once I can afford it. From what I've seen of playthroughs, the atmosphere looks fascinating, and a lot more interesting than Dark Souls. I will definitely agree that many of the areas in Dark Souls weren't the greatest. Who the fuck thought the Crystal Cave was a good idea? It just really disappointed me to see that atmosphere and aesthetic devolve even further into bordering on cheesy territory with DS2 whereas Dark Souls at least had its own atmospheric identity. Not as good as Demons Souls I gather but still very strong. They also removed a lot of what I enjoyed most about Dark Souls, which was the technical and fast PvP. In comparison, DS2 is extremely slow and clunky compared to the super fast, reactive waltz that was PvP in both Demons and DS1. It is nice that more weapons are viable now though.

 

[Insideout Ink Demon]

DS2 was made by a lazy B team who didn't know what the fuck they were doing.

What's that, you want that item? LOL farm till your game is so fucked up that its on like NG+48! That's not unreasonable at all. NEW GAME PLUS FORTY EIGHT.

If you wanted to have all the gear in the game? I wonder if NG+ caps at 99... at any rate, that's a lot of stupid farming, stupid mobs that stop spawning because the 'gaem too hard!!!1111 make mob not spawn so i can run 2 boss geez!!11214omg"

Crap game is crap... no, actually, iTS SUB-CRAP.

Such a big disappointment. It's not often that I stand in crapstop lines to buy a day-1 release.. in fact IVE NEVER DONE IT before DS2. And what do I get? a spherical representation of electronic dog shit.

I feel this is like a parody.

Also, i think I might need some of it translating