Increasingly skinny women in video games?

[Smeatza]

So in other words, between a wide variety of visual media and body image (for just one of the many studies discussed in the meta-analyses.) So, yeah, I'm not buying the whole "but I'm sure the visual medium I like (and other visual media associated with it) behaves completely differently from all these other visual media that its visual style copies wholesale from!" argument.

But it's not a wide variety. Not in any sense of the phrase.
Like I have said, the majority of media looked at in these studies, is media that directly portrays an unattainable standard as attainable or even normal.
It is unreasonable to assume that trends will be the same for all types of media. Especially those that make it immediately obvious that their standards are unattainable, or even exist.

Well, you're half right. If you look at the graph on page 838, it's a good visualization of what they're talking about. They found significant direct effects of media exposure on eating disorder symptamotology and gender role endorsement. Gender role endorsement predicts ideal-body stereotype internalization, which in turn predicts body dissatisfaction.

They then performed a statistical test for mediation, and found that the media exposure -> gender-role endorsement -> ideal-body stereotype internalization/body dissatisfaction -> eating disorder symptamatology link is supported by the data, and their tests indicate that this causal chain partially mediates the effect of media on eating disorders. And as you said, they did not find a media exposure -> body image -> eating disorder mediation.

So,

A) the study does in fact support the findings that media exposure predicts eating disorders.

B) I maintain by belief that we should teach kids to read and draw conclusions from scientific journal findings in high school.

B) I agree with, but don't see how this has any place here. Unless you're resorting to snide, sarcastic comments again. Which frankly, by now, is just getting tired.

A) all these results came from a study with a an unbelieveably narrow focus. There are trends, I have not denied that but as I have said, there were a tiny amount of subjects, from a select group of students, who answered a ridgid and imprecise questionaire, for extra credit. And we don't even get to see the the raw data.
It is an interesting, if not particularly well executed study. But there is no way in hell it is robust or comprehensive enough to be used to make sweeping generalisations about the media as a whole.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Look, if you are a woman and are uncomfortable with the (admittedly unrealistic) body type and clothing designs of fictional women, YOU HAVE ISSUES BEYOND THE COMIC OR GAME YOU ARE VIEWING.

And if you are a man who thinks that real women look like a frank miller comic, YOU ARE SIMILARLY FAILING TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN REALITY AND FANTASY.

So, to sum up, maybe we can just NOT ***** and moan about this, and either enjoy or don't based on things that matter?

After all, yes, its ridiculous to think that a g-cup woman with a 12-inch waist and no real muscle is going out to slaughter orcs in a wrought-iron bikini, but its really just as ridiculous as a multi-billionaire creating a kevlar gimp suit to sneak around punching muggers in the dick. So, grow up, people

Some men actually find women with small breasts sexually attractive

That's dangerous in Australia.

 

[Nerexor]

There's been a lot of good discussion on here about how other media are equally bad at portraying both genders, but I think gaming gets focused on because it can go to extremes that other mediums can't. At the end of the day, films and TV shows are limited by the human body and what it can look like. So while the actresses tend to be the upper end of what is generally considered attractive, there are physical limits. Games, however, have no such limits so you can have more unrealistic physical models. This usually ends up as bigger breasts, slimmer waist, longer legs, and probably taller than average. Add in that you can also create costumes that show off more of that model, when in real life I imagine clothes like the "chain mail bikini" would pinch in unfortunate places, it compounds the overall effect.

I also wonder if the incredible lack of realism would make games less of a target for adoption of those figures. I mean, if I look at a TV actor I sometimes think, "damn, I need to get into shape" or wish I looked like that. I look at Chris Redfield and say "I would need to eat 12 meals of steroids a day to look like that, it's ridiculous." I would hope that the average woman or girl wouldn't look at Ivy from soul calibur and think "I can look like that." Because you can't. Nobody can. It's patently obvious that it can't be done, so maybe it's less of a media body image impact? That's just a thought, I have nothing to back it up, but it would be interesting if someone ran a study comparing body image issues across multiple media.

As to whether its bad, or evil, or sexist... I think it's just the media being marketed towards a certain demographic. Just like how romance novels have pictures of bare chested muscle hulks on them, or romantic comedies have their generic plot of the "unsuitable marriage prospect yet attractive man" being remade into "attractive marriage prospect" over the course of the film.

 

[Use_Imagination_here]

Personally I don't know what people are whining so much about. It's not like most of the characters in video games have an actual personality or feel like real people, so what if their BODIES are unrealistic?

And look at it from the perspective of the person creating the character. Attractive characters equal fanservice. So unless a characters unattractivness is actually relevant to it's personality it makes sense to make it attractive.

 

[Wolfram23]

I like skinny, pretty women with large breasts.

Therefore, sexualization is present.

/thread

[small](FYI, I'm being silly so don't start trying to argue with my flawless logic)[/small]

 

[LookAtYouHacker]

Look, if you are a woman and are uncomfortable with the (admittedly unrealistic) body type and clothing designs of fictional women, YOU HAVE ISSUES BEYOND THE COMIC OR GAME YOU ARE VIEWING.

And if you are a man who thinks that real women look like a frank miller comic, YOU ARE SIMILARLY FAILING TO DIFFERENTIATE BETWEEN REALITY AND FANTASY.

So, to sum up, maybe we can just NOT ***** and moan about this, and either enjoy or don't based on things that matter?

After all, yes, its ridiculous to think that a g-cup woman with a 12-inch waist and no real muscle is going out to slaughter orcs in a wrought-iron bikini, but its really just as ridiculous as a multi-billionaire creating a kevlar gimp suit to sneak around punching muggers in the dick. So, grow up, people

Some men actually find women with small breasts sexually attractive

That's dangerous in Australia.

You're malforming what I'm attempting to convey. Read it again. I never said that women can't have unrealistic bodies (of course they can), I'm simply saying that there are plenty of women out there with considerable breast-sizes and athletic figures. Google it.

I would presume something else in your denial of physically endowed women, but nevermind.

 

[Skoosh]

the majority of males do not desire that male fantasy.

okay, so we are talking about 12 year old boys. 12 year old boys still like ninjas, right? how many ninjas have the body of Arnold Schwarzenegger? virtually none?

I rest my case. Yes, most guys wish they were good looking, tall, with well toned muscles. that does not equate to looking like Arnold Schwarzenegger which is just as extreme as a women with unrealistic bust size weighing 90 pounds.

TERA is an abomination that deserves to receive flak in this particular subject. however the industry as a whole has improved significant in regards to the sexes in the past decade. 10 year ago you would be hard pressed to find any game with decent memorable female character who wasnt a damsel in distress or a childhood friend of the protagonist and played second fiddle throughout the game.

Now we are seeing more and more games with decent male AND female characters in it, and gaming is better for it.

The majority of video game characters aren't depicted that way. Yeah, kids like ninjas, but that doesn't mean all characters are ninjas either, does it? That argument made no sense.

Also you seem to be misunderstanding something here. It's not that most guys want to be those characters, it's that they are playing out a power fantasy through those characters. It could just as easily be a guy that's frustrated at his desk job wanting to come home and smash alien skulls since he can't smash his boss's. He feels powerless in real life, muscles and guns represent power, Gears of War lets him feel powerful. My point though is that those muscle bound characters are definitely not made to appeal to females, so they must be appealing to males. There are plenty that don't like it, but there are also plenty of games that don't do it. You're taking your own personal taste and applying it to all males everywhere.

There is a significant portion of males that do have a power fantasy they play out with videogames, whether they realize it or not. The same way there's a significant amount that are noticing the busty, objectified women and buying the game. That may not be the main reason for their purchase, but it's enough for them to notice it and get the company more sales. The problem is that all of these characters are still centered around males. The men are designed with male gamers in mind, the women are designed with male gamers in mind.

Things are getting better, yes, but it's still very VERY far from being balanced. We have fat but deep male characters, muscular but ugly male characters, and fairly normal male characters. Females are still 95% straight attractive though. Hell, even with the "create your own character" games, they won't even give you the option to make a fat woman, even though the male versions often can.

 

[Kahunaburger]

Look, if you are a woman and are uncomfortable with the (admittedly unrealistic) body type and clothing designs of fictional women, YOU HAVE ISSUES BEYOND THE COMIC OR GAME YOU ARE VIEWING.

It would be more accurate to say that there are objectification issues with media that extend beyond individual games/comics/whatever, and that some people (across the gender spectrum) voice reasonable criticism of this problem.

 

[Iron Lightning]

I support the feminist ideal (not the feminazi ideal)

Well, that works out pretty well, since feminism exists and "feminazism" is a product of Rush Limbaugh's fevered imagination.

Well, there is the woman who believes that men don't have a right to not be castrated and is addressed with this video:
Alsot there's this chick from a while back:

So yeah, they exist.

 

[Easton Dark]

I play as guys with big muscles, great hair, and above-average fighting abilities all the time and it doesn't bother me. Is it different for a woman playing as women with enhanced appeal and abilities?

the equivalent to that for me would be commander Shepard...

the equivalent to certain types of female protagonists for you would be...say.....a man wearing nothing but a leather strap, the game always focusing on his fabulous muscles...

there is a difference, its just hard to explain

No no, I get it now after it was explained earlier. It focuses what men want onto women characters while male characters are what men want to be.

I can see why there's controversy, because it's all about men.

 

[Kahunaburger]

I support the feminist ideal (not the feminazi ideal)

Well, that works out pretty well, since feminism exists and "feminazism" is a product of Rush Limbaugh's fevered imagination.

So yeah, they exist.

What you're seeing there is a bunch of individual crazies (I include in this category TheAmazingAtheist.) What Rush Limbaugh wants you to see is some sort of consistent/organized "feminazi" ideology that, while actually nonexistent, provides righties/fundies/etc. with a convenient strawman to use against feminists.

 

[Smeatza]

Look, if you are a woman and are uncomfortable with the (admittedly unrealistic) body type and clothing designs of fictional women, YOU HAVE ISSUES BEYOND THE COMIC OR GAME YOU ARE VIEWING.

It would be more accurate to say that there are objectification issues with media that extend beyond individual games/comics/whatever, and that some people (across the gender spectrum) voice reasonable criticism of this problem.

It would be even more accurate to say that links have been made between certain types of media and body image dissatisfaction. But that not enough research has gone into the area for us to know the full ins and outs of it, or whether it even is an issue at all.
Such as whether an individual is more likely to be negatively affected during a certain stage of development or whether different types of media and the different ways we percieve them cause a difference to how much, or whether an individual is affected.

It is an interesting subject and I would like to see it given more attention by the scientific community and the general masses.

 

[Kahunaburger]

It is an interesting subject and I would like to see it given more attention by the scientific community and the general masses.

It has been given attention, some of which I've linked you to, and some of which it is up to you to seek out and educate yourself about. You've spent the last page or so of this thread performing bizarre intellectual contortions in a frantic effort to convince yourself that said overwhelming evidence doesn't apply, because you don't like the results.

 

[Lilani]

Things are getting better, yes, but it's still very VERY far from being balanced. We have fat but deep male characters, muscular but ugly male characters, and fairly normal male characters. Females are still 95% straight attractive though. Hell, even with the "create your own character" games, they won't even give you the option to make a fat woman, even though the male versions often can.

And to be fair, this is still prevalent in all forms of media. Think about sitcoms: Everybody Loves Raymond, the King of Queens, Cheers, Seinfeld, Fraser, even the Flintstones from way back. Most of the male leads are far from the Hollywood standard of hotness, and many are also quite overweight. But NONE of the female leads are overweight, and physically they are out of their significant others' league, so to speak. Once again the male fantasy comes to mind--the "average guy" scored the perfect woman who is both perfect physically and accepts their lack of physical perfection. But it's more than that, because even shows geared toward women are like this. The New Adventures of Old Christine, the Nanny, Pretty Little Liars. All the female leads are thin and gorgeous. They may complain and act like they're overweight, but for them it's clear it is not a legitimate issue.

You're seeing a few TV shows pop up with "ugly" or fat female characters (Ugly Betty, Drop Dead Diva, etc), and the public is generally responding positively to these things. And now we're at least starting to talk about the lack of overweight female actors, as compared to the fair number of overweight male actors. As enlightened as we like to think we are, media and society still have a ways to go as far as treating both male AND female characters like people, rather than male characters like people and female characters like people filtered by a "You must be at least this hot to enter" sign.

 

[Iron Lightning]

I support the feminist ideal (not the feminazi ideal)

Well, that works out pretty well, since feminism exists and "feminazism" is a product of Rush Limbaugh's fevered imagination.

So yeah, they exist.

What you're seeing there is a bunch of individual crazies (I include in this category TheAmazingAtheist.) What Rush Limbaugh wants you to see is some sort of consistent/organized "feminazi" ideology that, while actually nonexistent, provides righties/fundies/etc. with a convenient strawman to use against feminists.

While there are some examples of social sexism which favors women (e.g. immunity from the draft, lighter prison sentences on average than those given to men for the same crime, greater reproductive freedom, etc.) just as there is sexism which favors men I still agree with you in that it's not the fault of feminists but rather is caused by the maintenance of gender roles by both men and women.

That's why I disagree with feminism since focusing on the issues of only one gender is a poor way to solve the issues of both. It also generally paints women as the only victims of sexism which is frankly silly.

 

[SonOfVoorhees]

Woman are skinny with big boobs, men are muscle bound steroid users with gravelly voices. Games are not real, they go for stereo types. Granted woman get the worse end of the stick as most gamers are men, but there is a difference between fantasy and reality looks.

Games are nothing. I have more issue with girls magazines where woman are airbrushed to perfection given woman eating disorders. Most girls know games are fake, where as alot of the mags are photoshopped look real to them.

 

[Smeatza]

It is an interesting subject and I would like to see it given more attention by the scientific community and the general masses.

It has been given attention, some of which I've linked you to, and some of which it is up to you to seek out and educate yourself about. You've spent the last page or so of this thread performing bizarre intellectual contortions in a frantic effort to convince yourself that said overwhelming evidence doesn't apply, because you don't like the results.

You linked me to a poorly performed study that does not represent what you are trying to conclude. I have shown you how the study in no way represents the media in general, or females in general. So to use it to make conclusions about both of those things is highly unscientific. It does show certain trends, and certainly invites others to do more in depth, robust and comprehensive research.

I also said that more attention should be given to the issue, implying that not enough attention is given to it currently, not that no attention is being given to it whatsoever.
You are either missing the point again, or deliberately taking words out of context again.

I have made no "bizarre intellectual contortions" (another snide remark, so petty). I have shown that the literature you are basing your opinion on, does not conclude, or show any evidence for what you say it does. Which it quite blatantly doesn't.

On top of all this you've been evasive, deceptive and demeaning almost constantly. I'm inclined to believe that you are not a man of science, but somone who is emotionally invested in the subject, and so desperate to get their point of view seen as scientific fact, they will resort to unscientific means.

 

[Kahunaburger]

highly unscientific.

Let's put it this way: I'll be more inclined to value your opinion on what studies you think are reliable, what conclusions we can draw from a study or meta-analysis, or how to best survey the literature on a topic when you demonstrate to me that you know how to do basic things like read a results section.

The information is out there if you want it. If you do not belong to a university or other institution that has access to papers online, you can access papers in most major libraries. This is assuming, of course, that you are authentically interested in educating yourself on the topic. If, on the other hand, you're counting on me continue to link you to more studies so that you can continue to not read them, you're SOL.

 

[Smeatza]

highly unscientific.

Let's put it this way: I'll be more inclined to value your opinion on what studies you think are reliable, what conclusions we can draw from a study or meta-analysis, or how to best survey the literature on a topic when you demonstrate to me that you know how to do basic things like read a results section.

The information is out there if you want it. If you do not belong to a university or other institution that has access to papers online, you can access papers in most major libraries. This is assuming, of course, that you are authentically interested in educating yourself on the topic. If, on the other hand, you're counting on me continue to link you to more studies so that you can continue to not read them, you're SOL.

And again, you evade what I say, and justify it with lies.
While avoiding the burden of proof through your demeaning attitude.
I give up with you, you blatantly know very little of scientific process or have very little interest in it. Yet for some reason you feel the need to pretend you do.

Just keep in mind that it's obvious to anyone with a scientific background that you are presenting opinions as scientific fact (which I will continue to call you on), massively over-simplifying things and just generally being dishonest.