Internet Literacy

[RufusMcLaser]

Lately something has been getting on my nerves; illiteracy on forums and the internet in general (although this doesn't seem to be a huge problem on the Escapist). I'm not talking about poor vocabulary or the occasional misspelled word, I'm talking about the inability to write a complete sentence, or even an understandable thought. Is it really so hard to type "you" instead of "u" and put a punctuation mark at the end of whatever you're trying to say? It doesn't take even a second to type the extra two letters that make up words like "you" and "know", but people skip them anyway. I'm sure these people have at least a third-grade education, and if they don't I'm not sure why they're attempting to make an intelligent argument of any kind. Does anyone have an explanation for this? Any input would be appreciated.

I agree with everything this person said. Unfortunately I know how this sort of thread develops- people sneering at each other.

 

[Humbug]

(This start stuff is just babble... skip down if you don't feel like reading it. That's not to say anything else I write is any better then babble but I think it's on topic)

I think It's all taken out of control with young people who haven't ever felt pride in a piece of written work they have made or had a conversation via writing in which they want to be taken seriously. They start off IMing with friends from school using the txt-speak from mobiles and seeing it as cool. They aren't there to converse about anything meaningful, but to make an appearance with the rest of the cool kids. They aren't there to have a deep and meaningful with anyone (if anything, they'll probably tell their mates to ask someone out for them at school...) They don't have anything to talk about so they'd be happy to spend a minute or two explaining what that last line of flashing emoticons and random letters means.

Now that's a bit of a generalisation but you get the idea. I say this having a sister in year 8 who, I'm guessing, is pretty typical in this regard.

But in this context everything they say is normal and up to the norm. It's all about who your talking to and in what context. Writing in txt-speak is seen as cool (You know the stereotypical reaction to a smart kid in any American movie?).

If I am talking on MSN I'll generally drop full stops, capitals and apostrophes and not give a stuff about typos (although I still type stuff out in full) because the people I'm talking to don't mind. They aren't there to read a lot of text they're there to chat so I get it done quick. Writing on here I feel I'll be crucified for missing a capital so I'm being more picky then usual but normally I'm somewhere in the middle.

I use some abbreviations, like "atm" and "lol" because I look at them and get meaning from them straight away, like I do any other word.

== HERE ==
The thing that I find terrible is that people don't use enough of the English language to communicate what they mean, let alone make it easy to read. People forget that the people they are talking to don't know what they're going to say. If you ever stop to think when your writing a txt and trying to save your thumbs and a couple of cents by not writing an essay it's surprisingly easy to write something that can be taken in two totally different ways unless you punctuate it correctly.

Those kids that I was talking about above come onto the net when they discover that the internet isn't a program for chatting with friends and use the same way of writing that they have previously (probably starting on myspace/facebook). I think everyone is entitled to his or her opinion to how well people should write (not saying they should be allowed to act it out anywhere...) and that it's all to do with where and what your writing for. Are your trying to kill time? Communicate something to a mate? Have an intellectual discussion (like you blokes here)? Personally I think that if what you write is going to stay around for more then 10 minutes then you should put some care into it.

Replying to that comment about the mxeid up leterts and the idiocy of English spelling; We definitely need a standard spelling for everyone or nothings going to work. Personally I think the spellings stupid (bough, cough and through for (an overused) example) (mostly because I'm not good at it) but the reason the mixed up letters thing works is that you learn the look of words; their shape and length, not just which letters make them up. Reading that gibberish carefully makes it impossible to understand but you can skim read it, maybe drop a word or two, and understand it perfectly.

That didn't come out as good as I thought it before I signed up... probably why I'm almost failing english... (but coming equal top in calc... ??)

 

[smallharmlesskitten]

big snip

That sir... Was an Epic first post...Yes We capitalise Epic here.

And I agree with you having English spelling and american spelling get's very annoying, especially when dealing with Americans on text chat. I type colour and I get spammed It's spelt color.

 

[Landslide]

For many years has this been a problem, though see a downward trend I do not.

giggle.

 

[Simski]

I do not mind small thing such as spelling errors nor common grammatical errors.
I mean, I'm Swedish myself and thus I can't always write everything perfect.
However when they're too lazy to write whole words, use any type of punctuation (or an excessive amount to gain attention), they don't fucking deserve to have their sentences read at all.

Especially people who have English as their first language, you should be ashamed when you can't English write properly.
I really really hate those classmates of mine who get top grades grades in (Swedish since that's my first language) yet when I talk to them on the internets, it looks as if they haven't learned to use their language worth shit.

 

[vxicepickxv]

I know how to read; and since I'm really advanced...*looks around, whispers* write.

Yes, but could I read it? I don't have the greatest handwriting in the world, but it is considered quite legible, even if it is only capital letters.

That comes from military training. It's easier for me to write in all capital letters, but I can type faster than I can write.

 

[NewClassic_v1legacy]

Okay, you want the NewClassic approach to "Internet Literacy" do you? Oh my... Where's my red pen?

Capitalization
Those who argue capitalization is unimportant must write the sentence "I need to go help my uncle Jack off a horse." 500 times on the board. Honestly, this is just as important as anything else. If for no other reason, the difference between i and I could help me identify typos (it magically turns into i more often than most realize), helps me read the sentence, and directs the flow of the sentence in a more reasonable manner. Anyone who doesn't do so, in IMs or otherwise, is essentially lowering my reading speed and making me doubt their self-worth. If they can't take themselves seriously, then why should I, regardless of the topic in question. (I'm an English major, so excuse my obsessive attention to grammatical detail.)

Spelling
Typos, errors on difficult words or homonyms, and the occasional slip-up is fine. What isn't fine is deliberate use of unnecessary shorthand. Seriously, if you use "b8" instead of "bait," to increase 'efficiency,' then you're lying to yourself and me. If you look at your anyone that's a practiced typist (short of accountants), then you can hit "ait" faster than you can usually hit "8" because of the way you process the letters of the keyboard versus the number line. Not to mention you're short-handing a four letter word. Seriously guys?

Professionalism
Mourn its loss, folks. I just saw someone use "thru" on a formal, 5-page essay, and did not get a negative mark. "Thru" has become acceptable shorthand in formal writing. Does this bother anyone else? If not, then perhaps I'm the only one that's scru'd.

Culture Shock
As far as British (or Australian, or Canadian, okay, everywhere but America) versus American spellings don't bother me as much in context. Granted, if I write a lot of intelligent things, and you get hung up on the fact that I used "aluminum" or "color" but ignore the rest of the discussion, then stop reading what I have to say. If you grew up learning to spell "mnemonic" as "numonic," then I wouldn't get on your case. It's how you learned, so why give me hell for the fact that I perhaps learned it a different way. It's not wrong to have an ulterior established convention, it's simply different. No more, no less.

And, that's all I have to say. The only English rule that I don't personally observe are the more highly advanced ones, like ending in prepositions. Honestly, "That's something I won't put up with." is a fine sentence, phrasing it correctly (That is something up with which I will not put.) is convoluted and unnecessary, and doesn't detract from the statement. Does that make me odd?

 

[DC_Josh]

I saw a news article some time ago that the powers that be here in "Merrie Olde Englandeie" wanted to cut spelling tests out of the education systems, because it was putting "Undue pressure on children".

I didn't spend 3 years and many of my precious monies to learn how to be a better writer for this nanny state to change the rules.

Sure I'll occasionally miss an apostrophe and more than occasionally misspell a word. But i can't in all good faith say "Hi u gn 2 da pb 2nite?" over msn or through a text. Its just lazy...

 

[OuroborosChoked]

Because it's a pointlessly esoteric system of layered pronunciation and incompletely translated words with more half-rules then a Republican convention propped up by linguistically egocentric people.
The fact that it has such a hilariously convoluted system of spelling from 3 major languages that doesn't even apply consistently simply emphasis how ridiculous the arguement is.

If I said depo, would that really change anything? If I said fillip, would you really be confused? Besides not looking "right", why can't I do these things?

First, I must ask for consistency. Are you asking about speech or writing here? If you said 'depo', it would be pronounced like "deppo". Well, the etymology of "deppo" isn't clear, so let's look it up. Huh... no such word. If you wrote 'depo', again, the etymology isn't clear, and if you didn't know that it was actually a misspelling of DEPOT, you still wouldn't be able to find out what it meant. Spelling things correctly helps you understand what the word means... as I have said.

And I have also said "Phillip" wouldn't matter because it's just a name and names don't have any objective, non-trivial meaning. Just make sure you capitalize it so people know you're saying a name and not just making up words again. And I'm sure if you were addressing someone named Phillip, and you kept spelling it 'filip', he'd be rather insulted.

but if you spelled 'depot' incorrectly, you probably wouldn't be able to find out what the word meant

You can't find out now except by looking it up BECAUSE IT IS NOT PRONOUNCED FOLLOWING ENGLISH RULES!
Its got its own special rule you need to look up or know, otherwise you'll spell it wrong.

I just said that it doesn't use English pronunciation. It's a FRENCH LOAN WORD so you would look to French for its meaning. Is that really so difficult to understand that I actually needed to say it twice? Why would you change the spelling of a word just because you borrowed it from another language? Granted, the Japanese do that, but only because their character set doesn't allow for the varied ways non-Japanese words are spelled.

Let me dissect "depot" for you. Knowing it's a French word, and that French is a Romance language, "depot"'s root would be Latin. The Latin word closest to "depot" is "depositus" meaning "to lay aside" or "store". Well well. So what would the noun be of something like that? A place where things are stored, yes? Of course you COULD just look it up, as long as it was SPELLED CORRECTLY.

Now, it seems to me that:
1. You don't read what I've written completely. That, or you deliberately take things out of context and twist them, as evidenced by you reasserting a point I had already addressed and you ignored.
2. You don't actually know any of the rules of grammar. The only people who argue against structure are people who don't understand why it's necessary. This is another thing that I have already explained. Language is nothing without comprehensibility. Consistency is at least half of the makeup of comprehensibility.
3. You don't know how to make a metaphor. "[...]more half-rules then[sic] a Republican convention[...]"? Republican conventions are well-known for their abundance of half-rules?

 

[Starnerf]

I try to be as professional as possible when I write, and I think my writing is fairly clear. I like to think my grammar is as good as I can make it without reading a book about it (not because I don't like to read, but rather because I don't find grammar rules very interesting). And that issue with ending a sentence with a preposition isn't actually a rule. It's just a clearer way of writing. Since prepositions are transitive, putting them at the end of the sentence makes it sound the sentence is unfinished. At least it does to me.

 

[Trace2010]

Oh, I'm sorry...I guess somebody thought that I was some old guy lamenting on the fact that we don't teach cursive anymore...I didn't really mean to make people feel bad because they weren't forced to sit in front of a Big Chief Tablet and recopy the BASIC PRINT BLOCK letters 300 times until they got it right. No, I understand that cursive has gone the way of calligraphy (used more as an art form than a means of personal correspondence) but when it's come to the point where school districts have to print a student's name on a standardized test entry blank because they know the students cannot do this by themselves, there is a problem.

To take this thread in another direction: what SHOULD be taught as a mandatory part of the curriculum now? My favorites are-

1) Personal Finance
2) Debate/Negotiation

-any other takers?

 

[hippo24]

If the structure of your sentence impedes the message you are trying to convey, then it's a problem. However if your concept ,or opinion, can be established without the use of proper format then it should be in no way a problem.

 

[hippo24]

Oh, I'm sorry...I guess somebody thought that I was some old guy lamenting on the fact that we don't teach cursive anymore...I didn't really mean to make people feel bad because they weren't forced to sit in front of a Big Chief Tablet and recopy the BASIC PRINT BLOCK letters 300 times until they got it right. No, I understand that cursive has gone the way of calligraphy (used more as an art form than a means of personal correspondence) but when it's come to the point where school districts have to print a student's name on a standardized test entry blank because they know the students cannot do this by themselves, there is a problem.

I write in cursive, and i am not old. What are you saying about me??

 

[Johnn Johnston]

A:I can see no reason why proper spelling, grammar and punctuation are so out of reach for some people. If you use it, it just becomes your natural style of typing and in the end there is no change to your typing speed whatsoever. It makes your writing more legible and people are more likely to take you seriously.

B:
i see no reason y u cant use grammer bcos u get used 2 it n u rite as fast n peple take u moar srsly

Could anyone spot the difference?

 

[LaFay]

lol, nubs.

 

[hippo24]

A:I can see no reason why proper spelling, grammar and punctuation are so out of reach for some people. If you use it, it just becomes your natural style of typing and in the end there is no change to your typing speed whatsoever. It makes your writing more legible and people are more likely to take you seriously.

B:
i see no reason y u cant use grammer bcos u get used 2 it n u rite as fast n peple take u moar srsly

Could anyone spot the difference?

well I type 89wpm soooo.

 

[NewClassic_v1legacy]

lol, nubs.

Fair warning, friend, it's posts like this that start probation.

A:I can see no reason why proper spelling, grammar and punctuation are so out of reach for some people. If you use it, it just becomes your natural style of typing and in the end there is no change to your typing speed whatsoever. It makes your writing more legible and people are more likely to take you seriously.

B:
i see no reason y u cant use grammer bcos u get used 2 it n u rite as fast n peple take u moar srsly

Could anyone spot the difference?

Obviously, I think it's part the lack of stringent emphasis on typing in elementary (primary) school (Because I had typing twice a week, every year through elementary, by 3rd grade, I could touch-type. By fifth, I already had the typing speed of the average American male), and lack of emphasis on grammar. I also think technology is somewhat to blame. The reason you hear so many young (12ish), irate gamers on Halo III is because that's available technology. When I was that age, there was no such thing as online-play on consoles. Because dial-up was so slow, the internet was more pop-on, do what you need, log off to open the phone line.

These days, Instant Messengers are the most available technology out there. Cell phone txting has become a viable form of communication, especially considering most phones have full keyboards. Where I (as a child) would go outside, inline skate, run around like an idiot. Kids these days are txting their friends with their dinky little phones, "r u gong 2 mall?" instead of "Are you going to the mall?" Sure, it's a lot easier to type that way on phones, and if they do it long enough, they start thinking that way. Are's spelling mentally becomes "r", and it just translates to full keyboards. It's shameful, and retarded, but that's how I think it's happening.

That, and I see kids not even old enough to be out of their mother's sight for more than 5 minutes with cell phones, which just seemed redundant.

 

[heart-plant]

Personally, I don't find it a huge issue. If it's understandable, then it's okay. I often make typographical errors, and people understand it anyway, so what's the problem?

Having said that, I'm so glad that my computer has a spell-checker. I rarely have the time to proof-read things after I've written them, and my English teacher is a ***** about spelling.

 

[LaFay]

lol, nubs.

Fair warning, friend, it's posts like this that start probation.

... I kid, I kid. Actually, in essence, I believe the downfall of language on the internet is a harbinger of changes to come. even now, people are saying these things like "pwn" and "lol" in real life. what these changes will be though, IDK.