Is Freedom Of Speech All It's Cracked Up To Be?

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TheStatutoryApe

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May 22, 2010
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interspark said:
Ok, here's a thought, a lot of people think that they can say whatever they want, regardless of how racist, hurtful or upsetting it might be, simply by waving "freedom of speech" in people's faces. The fact is, words can do more damage than we give credit for, hundreds of school kids commit suicide because of relentless abuse, very often verbal, and insults and outcasting can often hurt a LOT more than any physical abuse, so does anyone else believe that there are certain things that LEGALLY, we should and shouldn't be allowed to say? Discuss-
The vast majority of people who kill themselves have a lot of problems that they have received little to no help in dealing with. To believe that people saying mean things caused them to kill themselves demeans them and ignores the real issues behind their actions. Of course its not very nice to tell parents that their kid offed themself because their kid did not get the sort of help that they needed so people just point their fingers in the direction of the closest acceptable target. Never mind the fact that telling stupid kids to shut up (which they are highly unlikely to do) wont do a damn thing to help the poor kid who is a potential suicide waiting to happen. Never mind the fact that it makes them out to be oversensitive whiners and completely ignores the very severe and difficult issues that they have dealt with, most likely alone and without any help or support. Never mind that many bullies are probably the victims of abuse themselves, just a bunch of little assholes and shits right? The idea that words can make people kill themselves is ridiculous. Focus on helping people rather than punishing the most socially acceptable scapegoat (who probably need help themselves) so you can go back to ignoring the problem.
 

Akimoto

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Nov 22, 2011
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Kriptonite said:
I say freedom of speech ends when it hurts someone else.
It will always hurt someone, but I hate to see it used as an excuse to purposefully hurt. I may not agree with you about ducks and bunnies (I prefer ducks) but I don't need to be a di*k about it - it is my responsibility to think it through.

Freedom of speech WITH responsibility. That's more like it.
 

Thaluikhain

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Jan 16, 2010
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shameduser said:
And in Australia they lock you up for speaking out against the government. Or so I'm told.
Erm, no, you can burn the flag on public TV and chase the Prime Minister out of a function to recognise, IIRC, emergency service personnel (if you get a large and angry enough mob), and get away with it.
 

Macgyvercas

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Feb 19, 2009
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The theory is you can say whenever you want. Now one is stopping you from that. But you also have to face whatever consequences come with that.

Thank you Moviebob.
 

JoesshittyOs

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Aug 10, 2011
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There's a difference between freedom of speech and harassment.

And yeah, it's well worth it. If someone ever tells you to grow thicker skin, they're probably a giant asshole. But still, you should probably try to grow thicker skin.
 

Evilpigeon

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Feb 24, 2011
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Hammartroll said:
and just to comment on the British situation; I understand your trying to stop another Hitler from comming along and I'm not going to rag on you too much about that since nothing bad has really happened in regards to your laws about freedom of speech, but can't you guys at least be consistant? You let muslims get away with murder (as the saying goes) but, at least from what I've read here, you guys are too "afraid" to criticize them? Don't you think your fear comes from your overly politically correct society?

And I'm not saying that their (the muslim population) recent influx in the past couple decades is a bad thing, but it should be noted. What if a muslim prime minister is elected and wants to crumble up the Magna Carta and institute Sharia Law, are you going to be too afraid to criticize their beliefs then?
Well... Apart from the Magna Carta being pretty much obsolete :p

This impression of yours is a misunderstanding. Our laws are tolerant enough to allow anyone to get away with going as far as some of these extremist preachers have, human rights laws complicate things. People are complaining about the stigma that can become attached to criticising these people because it really does start to sound quite racist and xenophobic and I quote:

"What if a muslim prime minister is elected and wants to crumble up the Magna Carta and institute Sharia Law"

:p
I'm sure you don't intend it but that statement is in the same ballpark as implying that Barack Obama is going to nick the Whitehouse television when his term is over and he leaves office.

It's absurd that people are allowed to get away with half the hate they spew. Free speech is a tricky issue, I agree with it in priciple but it's abused all over the place, just as free of religion is abused - let's get indoctrinated into our parent's belief systems with no personal choice in the matter!
 

SmegInThePants

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Feb 19, 2011
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lesson in American law:

Even in America there is no *pure* freedom of speech.

for instance - fraud. is and has always been a crime in America. Its criminal to use speech in such a way as to commit fraud, and you can commit fraud w/speech alone, no physical act is required.

Or perhaps you work for the CIA and agree in writing that there are certain things you won't talk about or suffer criminal consequences.

Yelling "fire!!!" in a crowded theatre because you think its funny, is usually a crime as well. Its a common example in American law used to illustrate this very point, that freedom of speech is *not* the freedom to go around saying whatever you want no matter the consequences.

Freedom of speech is a limit on the government's ability to use its power to limit your speech. This especially applies to the media, no prior restraint is allowed at all in regards to the media. They can go after the media *after* they say something, for lets say, fraud or what have you, but they aren't allowed to tell the media *before hand* what they cannot say. But even w/this there are ways around this restriction. You own a radio station or major tv network and want to use such and such frequencies to broadcast it? Well guess who owns those frequencies? The government. You need their permission. And they'll only give you that permission if you agree to their rules, via the FDC. That's why cable t.v. can cuss and swear and show boobs, while network t.v. cannot. Its a legal way to limit their speech, by getting them to agree to said limit.

There are all sorts of limits on speech. Time, place, and manner limits are allowed. Content limitations are the ones that are usually overturned. And even a time/place/or_manner restriction is overturned if in effect, its a content limitation, or denial. Like, you can have your protest, but only for 3 seconds, 200 years from now, on the dark side of the moon. This would effectively deny your protest even though on its face it merely restricts the time/place/and manner of your protest.. Or, anyone can protest, but only if they acknowledge jesus as their savior as a part of their protest. Or if they pay a 6 digit fee (this way only the 'right kind' of people will be able to protest, in effect, limiting the *content* of such protests).

And as always, the freedom of speech is in danger, even at present. You can protest, but only over here in this fenced off area. The people who support this candidate can go anywhere, even right up to the candidate as he walks down the public sidewalk and shake his hand for the camera, but not you, and simply because what you ahve to say isn't as pleasing as what the person we are not restricting has to say. And you, the media, can cover the protest and the government's reaction to it, but you have to do it from the special media area we set up over here, its for your protection, wouldn't want us to think you are one of the peasants and hurt you, i mean protesters, did i say peasant? This of course is a time/place/manner type of restriction, that we see more and more of today, so ostensibly its ok, yet *in effect* its a lot more than that, and not just of speech, but also the freedom of association (another little right we have in the constitution, though much less talked about).
 

NoeL

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May 14, 2011
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interspark said:
Ok, here's a thought, a lot of people think that they can say whatever they want, regardless of how racist, hurtful or upsetting it might be, simply by waving "freedom of speech" in people's faces.
And those people would be wrong - even in the United States. Freedom of speech laws don't protect against harassment or slander, so you can't get up in someone's face calling them a cock sucker then fall back on "hey, free speech right?".

That said, people CAN say racist, hurtful and upsetting things without being guilty of harassment/slander. If I said, for example, "Muhammad was a cock sucker", you can bet people will be offended but I'm within my rights to say it (unless I'm directing it at an individual with the intend to offend).

Finally, in matters of free speech (and libel in particular) the truth is always a defense. If you claim Joe Schmo is ripping off his clients and that in turn causes Joe to lose business, Joe can file a libel suit against you. If Joe WASN'T ripping off clients then you can get in a lot of trouble - free speech won't get you off. If Joe WAS ripping off clients then you're protected by the law and Joe will have to suck it.
 

Strazdas

Robots will replace your job
May 28, 2011
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Kriptonite said:
I say freedom of speech ends when it hurts someone else.
basically this.

Point is there is not a single country in the world that truly has freedom of speech. even the rules of this site proves that point.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Nov 7, 2011
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interspark said:
Ok, here's a thought, a lot of people think that they can say whatever they want, regardless of how racist, hurtful or upsetting it might be, simply by waving "freedom of speech" in people's faces. The fact is, words can do more damage than we give credit for, hundreds of school kids commit suicide because of relentless abuse, very often verbal, and insults and outcasting can often hurt a LOT more than any physical abuse, so does anyone else believe that there are certain things that LEGALLY, we should and shouldn't be allowed to say? Discuss-
Yes, then afterwards we can ban(and burn) books [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451] that also contain things that "hurt" people.

No, don't ban words. Instead learn the concept of "sticks and stones".
 

Kriptonite

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Jul 3, 2009
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Akimoto said:
Kriptonite said:
I say freedom of speech ends when it hurts someone else.
Freedom of speech WITH responsibility. That's more like it.
See, the thing is, most people don't actually think about stuff like this. I agree with you 100%. Props to you for having something many people these days don't, your own opinion. :)
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Nov 7, 2011
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TheKasp said:
Volf said:
Yes, then afterwards we can ban(and burn) books [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451] that also contain things that "hurt" people.

No, don't ban words. Instead learn the concept of "sticks and stones".
So they should learn to live their life by an old, outdatet and false concept because other people dismiss their basic human rights with their stupid interpretation of "Freedom of Speech"? Interesting...
Yeah its so old and stupid, that's why other countries have similar laws.
 

Helmholtz Watson

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Nov 7, 2011
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TheKasp said:
Volf said:
Yeah its so old and stupid, that's why other countries have similar laws.
Yes, there is a reason why most countries have laws against slander and hate speech. Even the US.

I really don't like to pull this but hey, it's the easiest to find source:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country

Go on, most countries have limitations. All of them base around both I named.
ok so then what are you arguing?
 

Dejawesp

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May 5, 2008
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Funny how we always tell kids that "sticks and stones can break bones but words will never hurt me" Then some comedian makes a joke about women or racial stereotypes and people are "That guy hurt me with his words, Punish him"