Is it really an issue of gender equality?

[Abomination]

..... Look. The reason this is a stupid freaking thing to talk about is because BOTH East and West have their own stupid cliches that they use over and over and over again, this isn't something that pertains solely to one cardinal direction or the other, it's a standard of media.

And by comparison the East has a far worse track record, especially in regards to modern games.

And did you seriously just look at one type of character, the tsundere, and generalize it to all of the women?

And did you just seriously ignore the sheer prevalence and use of that type of character? Ignoring its presence and dominance in Eastern animation?

As for your comment about Final Fantasy.... *sigh* Just because you want to make a point doesn't mean you should charge in and say bull, keep a cool head and think about what you're doing. Final Fantasy has many female characters that are good and I've never seen a single one that behaves erratically because they were a woman. Give. Examples.

Careful here, I'm not about to say that people behave erratically because they are women. I will say that the designers depict female characters behaving erratically because they believe that's how women behave. That being established, in every Final Fantasy game there is some "student" girl who is involved in life and death situations who continues to behave like a schoolgirl. Yuffie, ...that girl in the yellow dress from FFVIII, Dagger, Yuki (or however you spell that Al-bhed girl's name), and that orphan girl with the terribly impractical pants in FFXII.

For example. Faris, Adel, Celes, Terra, Aerith, Lulu, Ritz. Several female characters that are capable in the final fantasy series and don't act like idiots, or overly-emotional insults to all of women kind.

Congratulations, there are some who don't but there are also those who most certainly do.

As for Berserk, I can't speak of that because I don't read it and I haven't watched it but that's one example. One example does not speak of the entirety of a culture's media.

And I personally do not engage in much of Eastern media because I find their characters terrible or generally irrational in their decision making.

But Berserk is one that will always stick with me as a very sexist piece of media... and it's also supposedly one of the best Anime/Manga out there.

 

[Specter Von Baren]

And by comparison the East has a far worse track record, especially in regards to modern games.

You say this as if it's self evident but you've yet to explain what makes it so much worse than the west.

And did you just seriously ignore the sheer prevalence and use of that type of character? Ignoring its presence and dominance in Eastern animation?

I don't know, why are you ignoring the presence and dominance of dumb blonds in Western live action? Are you seriously talking this way about this?! Tsundere is not a character-type that leaks into every facet of Japanese animation. Darker Than Black, Samurai 7, Cashern Sins, Moby Dick, every Miyazaki movie, Puella Madoka Magica, Blue Sub #6, CCC, Kino's Journey, tons of stuff from Japan without a Tsundere precense and all from different times and for different genres. I can only conclude that you just looked at few anime's and then came to the immediate conclusion that they're all like that.

Careful here, I'm not about to say that people behave erratically because they are women. I will say that the designers depict female characters behaving erratically because they believe that's how women behave. That being established, in every Final Fantasy game there is some "student" girl who is involved in life and death situations who continues to behave like a schoolgirl. Yuffie, ...that girl in the yellow dress from FFVIII, Dagger, Yuki (or however you spell that Al-bhed girl's name), and that orphan girl with the terribly impractical pants in FFXII.

Yes.... Yuffie negates all the other female characters by her very presence. You didn't even get Rikku's (Not Yuki) name right at all, you expect me to believe you know jack squat about what you're talking about? You honestly think that because these characters exist that it immediately invalidates all other characters and means that only these particular characters are what they really think women are like?

And I personally do not engage in much of Eastern media because I find their characters terrible or generally irrational in their decision making.

Yes... as apposed to our grand examples like Homer Simpson, Cosmo, Beavis and Butthead, Spongebob Squarepants, the characters of Family Guy, the characters of Brickleberry. Trully the West is a bastion of intelligent representations in comparison to the East.

 

[Abomination]

You didn't even get Rikku's (Not Yuki) name right at all, you expect me to believe you know jack squat about what you're talking about?

Alright, we're done here.

Of course, you're completely right.

The East has a long history of depicting females in media in a positive manner, far better than the West.

 

[darth.pixie]

the question is why must he be male? like how do you even define that? a ball of goo could have any reason to take on such a journey, like for a cookie and you got a game that doesnt apply to the stereotype. I guess that didnt come to the mind of gishs creators.

Er...purpose. These days you get three or four reasons for doing whatever you're doing:
1. Saving the world (debatable since the main can be a jackass)
2. Money (debatable since there are some things that money just can't make you do)
3. Revenge
4. Saving of a loved one.

3 and 4 can go together, I guess. And people default to wife or girlfriend for this sort of game. Because the people who want to play this game don't actually give a damn about purpose, so devs can be lazy.

For someone who played those old DOS platform games, purpose doesn't matter to me in this sort of game. I remember having to farm gems for a Twibble farm (Crystal Caves), saved cats (Jasper) or princesses(Mario, Prince of Persia) or was an atom on a circuit board, eating rainbow figures and dodging bombs...that one never made any sense(Supaplex), but purpose was wholly irrelevant. As was the main character.

Do you guys have ANY idea how often this trope is reversed for hidden object games? Every main character is a woman there, saving their children and/or husbands or just the world. That's because those are much more popular with women. But of course, no one counts those because 'casual'.

And yes, it's pretty ridiculous that every character has to be pretty in a game, but there are enough women, who play games, who like the chainmail bikini, as proven by countless mods adding them to even inappropriate settings. Yeah, diversity would be nice, but that's what indies are for. The publishers will slowly learn. Key word being slowly.

 

[carnex]

You didn't even get Rikku's (Not Yuki) name right at all, you expect me to believe you know jack squat about what you're talking about?

Alright, we're done here.

Of course, you're completely right.

The East has a long history of depicting females in media in a positive manner, far better than the West.

East has much more female leads than west. They also have large percentage of idiotic, bimbo females.But also they have large percentage of seriously intelligent, kind and strong female characters. Just like, wouldn't you know, male characters in their games. You touched upon FF games. Half of male characters in those games are either cocky morons of whiny morons.

It's exactly because they don't knee-jerk when they write female characters, like western authors do, that they do have so many females in games. They are not afraid of cultural backlash if they present female in "unacceptable" manner. They treat them as male characters, replacing male token characteristics with female token characteristics and that's it.

So what if they have many barbies that will give their life just to have a chance to rub their unmentionables against protagonist's arm? What matters is that they don't give a damn about cultural backlash since there is basically non in far east. And it's exactly because of that that they make good female characters too.

 

[Yuuki]

The East has a long history of depicting females in media in a positive manner, far better than the West.

I agree, especially if you look at anime. The sheer variety in female characters completely destroys what the West has, you get a colossal mix of female personalities as well (there are archetypes but lots of them with lots of examples). Nearly half the anime on my hard drive (and I have a lot ) is based around female leads/groups.

West has a lot of catching-up to do in terms of creativity with female characters when compared to the East.

 

[God's Clown]

Personally, I think every game should give you the choice of being a male or female character, and the character must at all points through-out the game be completely naked. They must not notice they are naked, and neither must any of the supporting cast. The main character must have zero personality, for movement they must float in a very neutral type of way.

I mean really, when it comes down to it, I just want game developers to make the game THEY want to make with the characters THEY want to make. Let them have FREEDOM to create. If you let people make the games they want, more people will create games, both female and male. As there will be a greater mix of people making games, there will be a larger mix of characters being developed. We should be focusing more on inclusiveness within the creative community as opposed to what characters those who are already in it are making.

Basically, make industry more assessable, give people more creative freedom, the industry will evolve.

 

[nuttshell]

Yes... as apposed to our grand examples like Homer Simpson, Cosmo, Beavis and Butthead, Spongebob Squarepants, the characters of Family Guy, the characters of Brickleberry. Trully the West is a bastion of intelligent representations in comparison to the East.

Someone really needed to say this. I easily forget our western pinnacles of creativity in character design and moral purity in animation and media in general.

[http://media.photobucket.com/user/robotvmonkey/media/gifs/applause.gif.html]

 

[Netrigan]

Maybe if women committed more violent crimes in real life they'd be considered more often as criminal protagonists.

Just saying.

Can we get Al Pacino to play her in the movie?

Seriously, this is Griselda Blanco, the woman who turned Miami into a war zone in the late 70s and early 80s.

An exception doesn't negate a trend <.<

But when it fiction bound by trends?

Want to make a Western about a former slave who becomes a deputy U.S. Marshal? Hey, what do you know, that's the life story of Bass Reeves. We could totally make a game around that concept even though it goes against everyone's perception that all gunslingers were white guys.

Pirate queens. Go for it. Totally happened. Female kingpins. Totally happened. Female WWII war heroes... there are women in the Soviet military who practically tip over from all the medals pinned to their chest.

Trends would see these people go home without trying.

Fiction is often about extraordinary people and this stuff is pretty damn extraordinary.

Gender equality really isn't the issue. It's people doing the laziest thing possible and just going with another white guy with brown hair, because apparently that's all anyone wants... you know, apart from all those failed games starring white guys with brown hair which don't count as a trend because reasons. The reality is there's one or two extraordinary games that make everyone else want to jump on the bandwagon; the great bulk of those following the trends are failures.

So to hell with trends. Trends are meaningless. If game developers do something extraordinary, then they're usually rewarded. Do something lazy, mediocre, and created by committee, then they'll usually fail.

I accept that many genres will be heavy on white males. Fiction reflects reality, but fiction should never be compelled to simply reflect reality. Often, it's more important that they inspire reality. The Godfather changed the way gangsters presented themselves. The Wild One changed the way bikers presented themselves. Countless war movies have changed the way soldiers have presented themselves. We change the way we dress, speak, and think because of fiction.

 

[Piorn]

Sexism is like Terrorism, it only actually happens very rarely, but once you're accused, you disappear forever.
And everyone who has a different opinion than you can use that.

But seriously, personally, I'm as open minded as it gets, just because I don't care anymore.
So mainstream media is dabbling in a grey goo of uniformity, so what? I am not going to singlehandedly change the industry.
I judge media by how much I liked it and how well written the characters are, not by counting the amount of actors of each race and gender.
I live my life like I always do, respecting everyone equally.

 

[FieryTrainwreck]

You didn't even get Rikku's (Not Yuki) name right at all, you expect me to believe you know jack squat about what you're talking about?

Alright, we're done here.

Of course, you're completely right.

The East has a long history of depicting females in media in a positive manner, far better than the West.

East has much more female leads than west. They also have large percentage of idiotic, bimbo females.But also they have large percentage of seriously intelligent, kind and strong female characters. Just like, wouldn't you know, male characters in their games. You touched upon FF games. Half of male characters in those games are either cocky morons of whiny morons.

It's exactly because they don't knee-jerk when they write female characters, like western authors do, that they do have so many females in games. They are not afraid of cultural backlash if they present female in "unacceptable" manner. They treat them as male characters, replacing male token characteristics with female token characteristics and that's it.

So what if they have many barbies that will give their life just to have a chance to rub their unmentionables against protagonist's arm? What matters is that they don't give a damn about cultural backlash since there is basically non in far east. And it's exactly because of that that they make good female characters too.

My take-away from this: Eastern game development is totally fair because all of the characters suck equally.

I won't try to discuss this any more because I'm with Abomination. I haven't been able to stomach more than a small handful of Japanese/Korean games in the last decade because I think the writing, stories, and characters are almost universally garbage. Same goes for anime. I'm sure there is some good stuff in there, but I've had enough bad experiences to make finding those gems completely not worth the effort.

 

[Robert Marrs]

You didn't even get Rikku's (Not Yuki) name right at all, you expect me to believe you know jack squat about what you're talking about?

Alright, we're done here.

Of course, you're completely right.

The East has a long history of depicting females in media in a positive manner, far better than the West.

East has much more female leads than west. They also have large percentage of idiotic, bimbo females.But also they have large percentage of seriously intelligent, kind and strong female characters. Just like, wouldn't you know, male characters in their games. You touched upon FF games. Half of male characters in those games are either cocky morons of whiny morons.

It's exactly because they don't knee-jerk when they write female characters, like western authors do, that they do have so many females in games. They are not afraid of cultural backlash if they present female in "unacceptable" manner. They treat them as male characters, replacing male token characteristics with female token characteristics and that's it.

So what if they have many barbies that will give their life just to have a chance to rub their unmentionables against protagonist's arm? What matters is that they don't give a damn about cultural backlash since there is basically non in far east. And it's exactly because of that that they make good female characters too.

You might be on to something. Its very possible that the lack of any backlash from japanese society gives developers the true creative freedom they need. In western culture (or at least the US) developers have to worry about backlash no matter what they do. Don't include women and its sexist. Include women but they are promiscuous and its sexist. Include a strong woman who can take care of herself and the situations she finds herself in are sexist. I would wager that most developers at least consider how people could have a negative reaction to not just female characters but everything in the games they make. Im sure that has some affect on them. Add this in with big time publishers who have to respond and apologize every time someone gets offended and you have a potentially vicious cycle.

Developers worried about backlash from consumers and publishers, publishers worried about losing money because of that backlash, journalists who all have a different opinion of it all and of course the root cause. Perpetual victims who always need to be offended in order to validate their own insecurities. We need to start paying attention to who is complaining and why because most of these people will always find something to complain about. Just ignore them.

 

[Amir Kondori]

Wow, a great post and one I fully agree with. Too many times, especially on sites like The Escapist, this topic is not treated with the respect, depth, and nuance it deserves. Just look at the latest abortion Critical Miss put out that is supposedly about discussions of race in gaming getting drowned out by "male patriarchy" with a panel talking about "Zimmerman mode activate" and showing the murder of a black man in a comic that they themselves admit has never featured a black man until that very comic.
I think this issue is never going to progress as long as that is the level of discourse when it comes to the subject. Where anyone arguing for a more nuanced view, who disagrees at all with the idea that games have an equality issue are just bigots who want to oppress women and drown out the conversation instead of adding to it, like they have a monopoly on this issue or the only moral stance on the issue.

 

[Terminal Blue]

If, on the other hand, there was no policy barring women from enrolling in any class of choice, but instead gender became irrelevant to an application, that would be equality. Now say someone was worried that 90% of the students enrolling in Engineering were male, that would not be an issue of "gender equality". This is what would be called a problem of "gender diversification".

Actually, it depends entirely what framework you're using.

Your approach represents a very institutional and "top down" idea of gender equality, that what matters is promoting "rights" and removing formal barriers to achievement and success. Men and women will still do different because they are different, but that difference is fine as long as noone is formally barred from being the exception. That's not a bad perspective, it's just kind of old now. That was the perspective of many of the original suffragettes, for example.

On the other hand, most people who are interested or concerned about gender issues can propose a slightly more holistic framework of gender equality. It comes down to how you perceive gender differences. As mentioned, the above conceptualization works on the principle that it doesn't matter what men and women do, only what they are allowed to do. You might think that maybe men and women are different, or that they should be different, or that they're not really different but that they have different "roles" (I'd take serious issue with all of those, but moving on for now). The problem is, where do those differences and roles actually come from? What causes women not to choose engineering as a career? What causes women to avoid politics? What causes women to take on the majority of childcare responsibilities? Because logically, unless you are proposing essential differences between men and women in terms of competence (which is the technical meaning of sexism) these differences should not exist except arguably in cases where there is an extreme physical barrier to a particular position.

Something is predisposing these outcomes. Millions of people don't make similar choices for no reason. It may not be formal discrimination, it may not be big nasty men saying "no, you can't come on our engineering course", but it may be the wider perception that engineering is unfeminine or that it requires a kind of instrumental intelligence or physical competence that is not associated with women. It may even be the result of informal discrimination. The point is, it's not simply "their choice", it's also linked to wider social trends, and to a wider social perception of women which is still fundamentally tied to their perceived inferiority in certain fields.

Saying "well, a few women are smart enough to do X and we should let them" is not incompatible with saying (or acting out) the principle that women in general are inferior to men.

 

[MammothBlade]

Let's face it, most gamers don't give two hoots about social justice in gaming. They just want to have a good time. Personally, I find this pseudo-activism detracts from talking about GAMES on their own merits and not how it fits into some social activist agenda. More female protagonists would be great, it's all about a variety, not having the same recycled protagonists over again. But making this a big issue is pointless, trivial nonsense. Spend all that passion on lobbying the government or banding together to make real changes that will better peoples' lives on a day to day basis.

 

[Gronk]

Ok, I'm going to ignore the little demon sitting on my shoulder saying "Nooo, don't do it!" and post here. Now i haven't read all the posts here, so maybe someone else already said this:

I would love to see a video game story written by a female, not too coloured by genre clichés. What kind of characters would she present? What would their relationships look like? What would the actual gameplay look like? Wouldn't that be exciting?

But you know what? I've worked for a number of developers and while all of them had female employees, none of them had any females in positions where they would have any creative influence on the game. They would work as HR-people, junior graphic artists, economics or support. But all lead-positions were guys, writers were guys, not a single creative female lead. Why is that?

Now i'm just speculating here, but imagine living in a culture where your "kind" is generally portayed as a)weak b)hysterical c)overly sensitive d) in need of protection e) over sexualized etc, to the point where that is what is considered "your" traits. Do you think that would affect the chances of you being allowed to head a multi million dollar game project?

And that is part of the problem, you are free to create what you want, but the more of these clichés you put up there, the more you normalize them, making them part of the overall "canon". Give more women the chance to be creative when it comes to video games and i think we will see more diversity. I'm sure you will still have your clichés, but hopefully we will get something fresh and unexpected as well.

 

[Rebel_Raven]

Let's face it, most gamers don't give two hoots about social justice in gaming. They just want to have a good time. Personally, I find this pseudo-activism detracts from talking about GAMES on their own merits and not how it fits into some social activist agenda. More female protagonists would be great, it's all about a variety, not having the same recycled protagonists over again. But making this a big issue is pointless, trivial nonsense. Spend all that passion on lobbying the government or banding together to make real changes that will better peoples' lives on a day to day basis.

You can't just redirect passion. Either you're passionate, or not. You can find new passions, but that doesn't guarentee they're where you want our passions to be.
Pursuing something without passion won't get the same energy either.

If the problem the game industry has with female protagonists went away, and we got some diversity among them, we wouldn't be here talking about it. Frankly it's on the game industry to change, not us. It seems a lot easier for the gaming industry to give up the hang ups it has towards sexual, and racial diversification.

Expecting the status quo to stop being an issue when it is an issue with people is absurd. It doesn't matter how small it seems to you, it's something in the eyes of people causing no end of irritation.

Once they do that, you'll likely get your wish. People will redirect their attentions. Dunno where, but they will as this won't be something to talk about.

 

[briankoontz]

After watching the latest Jimquisition ("Creative Freedom, Strings Attached"), and following gaming on "the internets" of late, there is a lot of voice (not specifically Jim's) given to 'gender equality' being a pressing issue for games, gaming and gamers.

They do say if you want to fix a problem you must first acknowledge it. And I just don't think gender equality is the real issue. There are comments speaking about the number of male protagonists vs. female protagonists. But that isn't what gender equality is about.

Gender equality is about equal opportunity (the same applies to race, etc). As an example, look at education. In some times and places, women were denied the right to an education. So were black people, and other favoured prejudices. That is an issue of equality. If, say, a university denied access to women.

If, on the other hand, there was no policy barring women from enrolling in any class of choice, but instead gender became irrelevant to an application, that would be equality. Now say someone was worried that 90% of the students enrolling in Engineering were male, that would not be an issue of "gender equality". This is what would be called a problem of "gender diversification".

I know it may just be arguing semantics, but there are key differences. No one is being denied their rights - as a matter of fact, the 'issue' arises from people exercising their rights - choosing for or against Engineering as a course. The issue is a 'cosmetic' one - there is nothing really wrong with 90% of Engineering students being male, and also nothing to prevent a future time where the proportion is reversed - but it "looks bad". In the example, what usually happens is that the University enforces a policy to favour female applicants. But this is inherent discrimination, and should never be looked at positively (at best a "necessary evil").

I mention this because I do believe gaming has issues. Gender/race/etc diversification is one, as is over-sexualization of females; they are issues because they "look bad", and as such are a barrier to the medium. But both of those are expected given the proportion of white male game developers - you write about what you know. You can't expect the creative process of game design to adhere to a numbers policy without that policy being somewhat draconian and restricting the creative process. It's already a problem in other areas of game design - do we really want to push gender there too?

tl;dr - It's not about sexism or gender equality...it's about the lack of a natural diversity of protagonists. There is no simple solution, and attacking any creator's choice of gender for their creation is going away from a solution, not towards it. What say you?

I say that you don't understand the reality of the situation.

Here's an analogy: let's say there's a party with a bunch of rich, powerful people plotting to dominate a small country, and they've walled themselves off so that even though everyone is invited to the party, most can't access or interact with the destroyers. Thus the argument is made that "hey, everyone has access to the party, so it's fair". Meanwhile, sensible people don't bother going to the useless party.

The industry is so corrupt and so dominated by infantile sociopaths (or people who believe they must simulate infantilism to "sell games") that sensible people of both genders stay away. The fact that women tend not to enter the games industry is not their problem, it's a signal that the games industry is not appealing to them, and the reason it's not appealing is that especially the mainstream industry produces games where the protagonist is a sociopathic superpowered murderer who's "saving the world", one corpse at a time.

So "no one is being denied their rights" is deluded and ignorant at best, downright disingenuous and propagandistic at worst.